Video taking up too much space on DVD (due to audio?)

[ejlion]

Hi. I'm recording with a Dazzle 150 and trying to drite to DVD+RW using various programs (Roxio, Sonic, Windows Movie Maker, etc.)... it seems that one hour of (DVD-quality) video takes up around two-thirds of the disc, and since these programs are all spending quite a bit of time (over 30 min.) transcoding my audio, I've turned my suspicions in that direction. Should I be using different parameters/codecs/etc. to capture the audio? Sonic doesn't even TOUCH the video before burning. I feel I must be making a simple mistake, as my videos are viewable, etc. I just fear I'm being inefficient somewhere along the line. Very technically adept and thought this would all be simpler. Any help would be appreciated.

[daamon]

Hi ejlion,

I'm recording with a Dazzle 150 and trying to drite to DVD+RW using various programs (Roxio, Sonic, Windows Movie Maker, etc.)...

I've never used any of those, so can't comment on them. However, I may be able to shed some light on your audio options.

If your audio is the culprit, chances are it's in PCM format (also known as LPCM or WAV). This is uncompressed audio @ 1,536kbps (kbps = kilo (or 1,000) bits per second of your audio, i.e. 1,536 x 1,000 bits per second - takes up a lot of space for not long of audio).

There are other formats, such as AC3 and MP2 that are realistic options as they are much less space-hungry and very comparable to PCM in terms of quality:

1. AC3 is one of the standard audio formats for DVD's (NTSC & PAL) and is compressed audio.
2. MP2 is highly likely to be OK in Europe, and probably OK (I've seen 80% quoted) in NTSC-land (as MP2 is not listed in the NTSC standard).

I use VirtualDub to extract the audio (from home shot DV AVI) using VirtualDub - make sure the audio is 48,000Hz. I then use ffmpeggui to convert WAV -> AC3 or MP2. As for bitrates, 192 - 256 kbps are good values, if you're setting these - obviously much better than 1,536.

You'll need codecs for both. If you capture to AVI, use either GSpot or AVICodec to get info on your audio and video, as well as codecs that are present / are required.

Of course, you could always:

1. Capture your original footage to your PC (I capture to DV AVI) and then...
2. Use an encoder, like TMPGEnc (there's others) to convert to MPEG2 which is required for DVD, then...
3. Author using something like TMPGEnc DVD Author (TDA) (good to start with, there's others) to insert menus, chapters etc. which then prduces your VOBs for...
4. Burning to disk (TDA, Nero, others...).

This is breaking the process down into high-level steps and using tools specifically designed for each step to do the job, rather than an "all-in-one" tool that, most would say, doesn't neccessarily do the best / most efficient job.

The benefit is you get more control over the settings / options at each step, and so can tweak it more to your liking.

There's loads of help from the links to the left if you wanna pursue this course. It all sounds scary and complicated, but I found it fun, interesting and challenging. And now I'm a lot more familiar, it's a lot less scary.

Oh, and get yourself a re-writeable disk (if you haven't already) for experimenting. Saves burning coasters...

Hope that helps. Good luck...

[ejlion]

see, I always thought that a fixed length of DVD video took up a fixed amount of space on a DVD... kind of like CD-Audio format, where even if you record FROM a lower quality, it gets stretched out. for example, if you take 320x240 video and put in on a DVD, it takes up just as much space as 720x480 video. is the audio a separate track? I have a one hour video at 720x480, recorded straight from Dazzle, and it takes up 2.83gb on a DVD, with 1.87 remaining. To extrapolate, this would allow only 1:39 or so on a DVD, when it's supposed to be 2 hours... I mean, aren't DVDs SUPPOSED to have a good audio? what's it doing when it's transcoding? I thought it would change the audio into DVD format...? I'm at work right now, so can't try your ideas, but will later today. Thanks!

[daamon]

Hi ejlion,

The (main, possibly sole - can't remember) factors in determining final file size is the length of the movie in seconds and the bitrate at which that movie (audio and video combined, assuming both are present) is encoded from (say) AVI to (say) MPEG2 (for DVD).

If the movie is 60 seconds long, and you encode the video at 8,000 kbps with the audio at 1,536 kbps the final file size would be twice the size of a clip of 30 seconds with the same settings. Basically (very simplistically), it's:

video length @ bitrate = video component size
audio length @ bitrate = audio component size

video size + audio size = final file size.

This link:

https://www.videohelp.com/calc.htm

...might be of use as it gives an insight (near the bottom) into manual calcs and what goes into them.

Good luck...

[bugster]

Hi ejlion,

The (main, possibly sole - can't remember) factors in determining final file size is the length of the movie in seconds and the bitrate at which that movie (audio and video combined, assuming both are present) is encoded from (say) AVI to (say) MPEG2 (for DVD).

Correct, Bitrate and playing time are the ONLY factors that affect the size of an mpeg file.

The same is true of ANY video or audio codec you care to name. Just remember if using variable bitrate encoding, it is the average bitrate that is used in this situation.

[ejlion]

Wow, thanks for being so responsive and helpful thus far. My experience with these kinds of forums is limited, and I appreciate the reception.

A couple questions remain...

(a) what is the optimal bitrate for video and audio on a DVD? i.e. at what point am I going beyond what the DVD player is capable of displaying, and being inefficient? or IS there even such a point?

(b) what is the most common and compatible way to get 2 hours of video and audio on a disc? does that "2 hours" figure on the DVD-R assume certain bitrates, etc.?

Thanks again, you guys are saving me literally DAYS of messing around.

If any of you ever need networking help, feel free to email me.
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[daamon]

Hi ejlion,

Wow, thanks for being so responsive and helpful thus far. My experience with these kinds of forums is limited, and I appreciate the reception.

Pleasure. You'll find that if you demonstrate that you've had a go and you're stuck then people are more responsive, as opposed to the lazy ones who don't bother reading. Giving plenty of info and showing willing to do your own legwork helps too. It's a great forum / site for those who want to learn rather than be spoon-fed...

(a) what is the optimal bitrate for video and audio on a DVD?

Check out the "DVDR" link in blue, top left - that'll give you detailed specs. It refers to the max being 9.8Mbps = 9,848 kbps (or thereabouts). Some players may accept higher (I believe), but I believe this is the DVD standard. Besides, the results are very good at that sort of rate, as long as the source is of a high quality too.

(b) what is the most common and compatible way to get 2 hours of video and audio on a disc? does that "2 hours" figure on the DVD-R assume certain bitrates, etc.?

Use that link I gave you to the bitrate calculator. That'll do the maths and answer your question.

If any of you ever need networking help, feel free to email me.

You could always put "Need networking help? Email me - Happy to help" in your signature, as long as you make your email available in your profile. But thanks for the offer, nice to know ones efforts are appreciated.

Good luck. Post back with how you get on.

[ejlion]

I got TMPGEnc Plus, but it's saying my source MPG (straight from the Dazzle 150 with the included software) isn't supported. Also, Windows Media Player is no longer playing my MPGs, but a freeware player I got on the web can play them fine; did a codec get messed up or something?

Incidentally, when I load the 4.6 GB MPG file into DVD Builder, it estimates the DVD at 7.05 GB...?

[daamon]

Hi ejlion,

For the TMPGEnc error, check out this link:

https://www.videohelp.com/tmpgenc.htm#problems

I don't know the Dazzle 150, so can't make any educated guesses, and I don't know TMPGEnc well enough to have a stab from that point of view either. Sorry.

As for the rest, I have to apologise on that one too. Hopefully someone else will be able to step in...

Good luck. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

EDIT - I've just re-read your last post:

I got TMPGEnc Plus, but it's saying my source MPG (straight from the Dazzle 150 with the included software) isn't supported.

This suggests 2 things:
1. You're capturing straight to MPG.
2. You're using TMPGEnc on that MPG.

From what I've read and understand:
1. Encoding to MPG on the fly means the PC has more work to do and so can cause problems / degradation of quality. Also, the MPG encoding may not be the best it could be. Capturing to AVI may be better.
2. TMPGEnc is for converting to MPG from other formats (e.g. AVI), as well as the other tools it comes with.

Can someone confirm my suspicions and possibly provide more detail - I would be learning something as well as possibly helping ejlion. Thanks.

[spectroelectro]

The Dazzle is a real-time MPG encoding card, if I'mnot mistaken, so you're capturing directly to MPG. Too large a filesize is a common problem for direct MPG capture. It happens because capturing in to MPG in real time can't be as efficient as encoding to MPEG outside of real time -- a program like TMPGEnc can take all the time it needs to squish video down into MPEG-2 in as small a filesize as possible, while the Dazzle card and other realtime MPG encoders must do the best the can in the limited tim before the next video block comes into the buffer.
The main culprit is your video file, so that's what you need to reduce in size. The tool I use is called ReJig. It's freeware, and it's even better than DVDShrink. ReJig can squish an MPEG-2 file by around 40% with no visible artifacts AT ALL. It's become an indispensible tool, especially when I capture using realtime MPEG-2 conversion (I do it with my p4 2.4 instead of a Dazzle card, but same difference).
The proedure for runnig ReJig is: (1) demultiplex your MPEG-2 file into a video and audio elementary streams, either with TMPGenc or some other tool like AVI2MPG; (2) run ReJig on the .m2v video elementary stream and click ont he box that says "SET FILE SIZE" and choose the filesize you need. It will typically be around 3.9 gigs for a DVD; (3) use BeSweet to transcode your .mp2 elementary MPEG-1 layer II audio stream to Dolby AC-3. Remember that AC3 audio is part of the DVD spec while .mp2 audio isn't. AC3 files are small in size, so this shouldn't affect your disk space. A typical 90 minute to 2 hour AC3 audio file takes up around 200 to 300 megs max, often < 200 megs.
You can also use DVDShrink to squish down your MPG file in size but IMHO it doesn't work nearly as well as ReJig (more video artifacts after file squishing).
Getting 2 hours of video on a 4.7 gig DVD-R is pushing it. But it can be done. Usually about 100 minutes is the max I go for.
My typical VBR settings for live realtime MPEG-2 capture are: average 4900, max 8000. Audio no more than 224 kbits, 48 khz. With AC-3 soundtrack that gets me around 92 minutes (2 TV shows) in roughly 3.6 gigs. YMMV.

[ejlion]

wow... you guys are simply awesome. I've been away for a couple of days and am just now sitting down to re-attack this from the encoding side. capture will have to wait, as i've ordered an adaptec device that seems more compatible and got better reviews, and that doesn't arrive till tomorrow. perhaps its best to perfect one stage at a time. thanks again!

[ejlion]

spectroelectro - everything you've recommended has worked great so far... what do you use to write the actual DVD? Thanks again!

[daamon]

Remember that AC3 audio is part of the DVD spec while .mp2 audio isn't.

Kinda...
You're right: AC3 audio is part of the DVD spec for both PAL and NTSC. However, .mp2 is also part of the DVD spec, but for PAL only. That said, .mp2 is usually playable in most stand-alone DVD players in NTSC-land (some have quoted this as around 80%).

(3) use BeSweet to transcode your .mp2 to AC-3

@ ejlion: If you have trouble with BeSweet...
1. Just the DOS window flashing up means that you probably don't have all the .dll's
2. Can't encode to AC3 - The latest version (I believe) has the AC3 encoding disabeld.

...then try ffmpeggui. Easy to install, nice clean 'n' easy GUI and dead easy to use.

...what do you use to write the actual DVD?

I currently use TMPGEnc DVD Author to take the mpeg2 (or .m2v video and .ac3 audio files) to author (i.e. add menus and chapters). This tool also has the ability to burn, and has always done a good job.

Otherwise, something like Nero (v6.3 or higher, as the DVD bugginess has been fixed). There's other decent burners too, listed in the "Tools" section.

Hope that all helps...

[sacajaweeda]

Very technically adept and thought this would all be simpler.

Yes, didn't we all? :P

[ejlion]

I have never been involved with something so infuriating in my life! All I want to do is capture from an Adaptec VideOh! DVD, remove commercials, etc., and write it to a DVD. I've tried all the utilities suggested here, and always get tripped up one place or another. If it isn't TMPGEnc refusing to open the files, it's the sound getting out of sync. Why can't these DVD-writing programs accurately reflect what will fit on a DVD? Isn't there anything out there that will take an encoded MPG of, say, 3.7gb, and fit it onto a DVD without RE-re-encoding it? My needs aren't all that complex, there has GOT to be a better way to do this. Now, no matter what I put into MyDVD, it says it fills the disc exactly, then spits out the blank (after hours of encoding) saying there isn't enough room!

Basically, I want to archive shows from my TiVo, without commercials, in decent quality, using the fewest amount of tools possible. I don't even want to get INVOLVED with decisions like bitrates, unless I can settle on some standard, because it seems that no matter how hard I try to get a file down to even 3.7gb, DVD writing software wants to re-encode it. Maybe I should be using the .IFO DVD structures that I've tried so hard to avoid?

[tears hair out] HELP!

[daamon]

no matter how hard I try to get a file down to even 3.7gb, DVD writing software wants to re-encode it

If you've got as far as producing DVD compliant mpegs, and you're happy with the quality thus far, TMPGEnc DVD Author doesn't re-encode... And it burns just fine too.

[ejlion]

no matter how hard I try to get a file down to even 3.7gb, DVD writing software wants to re-encode it

If you've got as far as producing DVD compliant mpegs, and you're happy with the quality thus far, TMPGEnc DVD Author doesn't re-encode... And it burns just fine too.

you know, I had JUST downloaded this before reading your post... it looks like this might do the trick for me. I've recorded a 20 minute sample segment to speed up my testing, and this IFO stuff isn't as complicated as I thought it would be. it also seems that TMPGEnc actually acknowledges the true capacity of a DVD-R (i.e. NOT 4.7gb). Looks like I'm making a lot of progress today; thanks!

[ejlion]

grrr, seems I can't even QUOTE right.

[daamon]

Looks like I'm making a lot of progress today; thanks!

Good to hear. No problem.

grrr, seems I can't even QUOTE right.

LOL... Can't see why it didn't work though... You haven't got "Disable BBCode in this post" ticked when you're posting have you?

[ejlion]

okay, okay... now I can successfully MAKE the DVD, but there's one remaining problem. DVD playback is noticeably darker than both the original (on the TiVo) and the captured MPG (on the PC)... in other words, the TiVo is okay, the MPG is okay, but the DVD is dark, no matter where it's played. also, the DVD and TiVo output to the same screen, so it's not TV settings. I'm using TMPG DVD Author; any advice on this?

[ejlion]

okay, further update. if I use a software DVD player to play the IFO file, it looks FINE. it's only after burning onto DISC that it gets dark. weird.

[FulciLives]

okay, further update. if I use a software DVD player to play the IFO file, it looks FINE. it's only after burning onto DISC that it gets dark. weird.

Are you capturing NTSC or PAL video?

Does your capture card have any sort of video adjustment tools? Some do so you can control the color saturation, contrast, brightness etc.

For instance my capture card tends to capture dark and I have to usually adjust the brightness and contrast as well as up the color saturation otherwise the colors are very pale. I can adjust these controls so it applies to the capture as it is capturing as opposed to adjusting it later which would require a re-encode which is something you don't want to do if you are capturing direct to MPEG-2

- John "FulciLives" Coleman