Need Advice - Is Standalone Recorder better than software?

[drblue]

This topic has been probably discussed somewhere, but after an hour of search, I couldn't find one. So here I am. I would like to ask your advice on standalone DVD recorder.

I've been using Premiere 6.5 + Mainconcept/TMPGEnc + DVD Workshop/TMPGEnc Authoring to create my daughter's home movie DVDs. While this process produces acceptable MPEG2 DVD movices, it clearly has two downsides: (1) Tremendous amount time for encoding (especially with TMPGEnc) and (2) deterioration of picture quality from the source.

I've been reading some posts that say recording with standalone DVD recorders often produce great DVDs that are very close to the source. And its encoding should be way faster than software encoders. So I am interested in moving to this world. But before I spend $500-800, I would like to have your opinion on this. My questions are:

(1) How is the quality of MPEG2 produced by standalone recorders when compared to software encoded one (e.g., TMPGEnc or Mainconcept's high quality setting like CQ 6000)?

(2) Is it possible to re-author the movies encoded by a standalone recorder? What I am thinking is: (a) first edit my miniDV movies with Premiere, (b) output it to a standalone recorder and record (=encode), and (c) transfer it back to PC and author with menu and chapters. Would this be possible?

I would really appreciate your advice. Thanks.

[fscrocco]

I used to play around with capturing valuable vhs recordings (camcorder stuff) to a matrox capture card, editing, and trancoding to mpg2. It was very time consuming and also had to deal with dropped frames. The best investment I ever made in home theater/video was the Panasonic dmr-e20 I bought almost 2 years ago. Essentially it is a hardware mpg encoder that has a built in Time Base Corrector and enhances the recordings in other ways also. Many people feel the dvd recording is actually better than the original vhs.

The only thing I don't understand about your post is your desire to go mini-dv to the computer, edit, then record to the standalone. I don't know how you could play it into the standalone, unless you use a software player and export through the video card's s-jack or rca jacks to the standalone. There would be a generation loss doing this. BTW, if your standalone has a dv in jack, IT WILL NOT accept the signal from your computer to the standalone. The standalone will accept the video from the dv-out on a dv camcorder. This would be your best bet. Hook your mini-dv camcorder up to the standalone via firewire. The standalone will record near losslessly. The Panasonic dmr-e60 and e100 (with hard drive) has the dv-in. The e50 does not. You can then record to dvd-ram, put it into your computer (the Toshiba 1712 cd/dvd reader can read ram), transfer the .vro file to the hard drive, change extension to .mpg, bring into Ulead DVD Workshop or MovieFactory, author the dvd with menus, then burn on the computer's dvd burner. You can also first take the vro/mpg file into Ulead Media Studio Pro to edit first before authoring. TMPGeng Author will also author a vro file, but is less flexible than Workshop. BTW, I have been doing all of this for a long time with terrific results. Another thing the Panny records audio in 2-channel ac-3 stereo. I think, but not 100% sure, that all standalone's record in ac-3, which is what you want because it keeps the file size down and is most compatible with dvd players. Media Studio Pro, DVD Workshop, and TMPGenc Author all accept ac-3. DVD Workshop v1.3 needs a little workaround though. You have to go into the dws.ini file and change ac3=0 to ac3=1. This allows you to hear the ac-3 audio as you author. You then put a checkmark (in the final burn stage) in a box that says "do not convert compliant files" and the ac-3 is passed through without re-encoding. There is a lot of info on www.avsforum.com on this subject.

[donpedro]

(1) How is the quality of MPEG2 produced by standalone recorders when compared to software encoded one (e.g., TMPGEnc or Mainconcept's high quality setting like CQ 6000)?

Never did myself but I would say that this is the way to go for home video. I am assuming that using PC MPEG2 encoders with correct options must always create better result. Even more true for MiniDV source. 2 PASS VBR can't be done on DVD Recorder for example.

(2) Is it possible to re-author the movies encoded by a standalone recorder? What I am thinking is: (a) first edit my miniDV movies with Premiere, (b) output it to a standalone recorder and record (=encode), and (c) transfer it back to PC and author with menu and chapters. Would this be possible?

Yes, it is possible. This will speed up encoding process.

[donpedro]

BTW, if your standalone has a dv in jack, IT WILL NOT accept the signal from your computer to the standalone. The standalone will accept the video from the dv-out on a dv camcorder.

Not true. I tested this with Philips DVDR-75/17 and Pinnacle Studio version 8 and it worked.

I don't know how you could play it into the standalone, unless you use a software player and export through the video card's s-jack or rca jacks to the standalone. There would be a generation loss doing this.

When you output to DV OUT on PC, like you do when you record back to DV camcorder, there is no additional loss. You don't have to use RCA Jacks.

[lordsmurf]

I have several setups and a DVD recorder. Unless your source is perfect or dang close, a recorder will be useless.

Software and computers (using good hardware and software) are so much better in that regard.

The only thing I can say about the recorder is that, when using perfect source, it's MPEG-2 hardware abilities can far surpass the quality of any low-cost or medium-cost card. Cards in the $1000+ range still have the advantage, as well they should.

I now use my ATI card ONLY for secondary PVR or video restoration. Straight conversion from perfect source, I use the recorder. Sometimes I extract source and re-author, sometimes not.

[donpedro]

The only thing I can say about the recorder is that, when using perfect source, it's MPEG-2 hardware abilities can far surpass the quality of any low-cost or medium-cost card. Cards in the $1000+ range still have the advantage, as well they should.

My understanding is that his source is MiniDV, so no need for expensive cards... If I didn't miss something

[drblue]

Wow, guys. Thanks a lot!!! I did not expect you would respond to my post so quickly. I learned a lot. I specially thank to "donpedro" whose answers were clear and direct.

It appears that a DVD recorder is likely to be a useful solution. But it also seems that you guys think PC+Software can produce a higher quality output (as both donpedro and lordsmurf suggested). Most of my sources are MiniDV (taken with Sony PC-110). I mostly use Mainconcept MPEG decoder (often use TMPGEnc but almost gave up on it because of its slow speed). To confirm:

Does everyone agree that PC+Mainconcept (or TMPGEnc) will outperform a standalone DVD in the MPEG encoding department? Your answers will determine whether I will drop $700 for a recorder this weekend

Thanks.

[lordsmurf]

The only thing I can say about the recorder is that, when using perfect source, it's MPEG-2 hardware abilities can far surpass the quality of any low-cost or medium-cost card. Cards in the $1000+ range still have the advantage, as well they should.

My understanding is that his source is MiniDV, so no need for expensive cards... If I didn't miss something

One of us did.

[Yvon]

The Sharp DVRW2U recorder does everything you are looking for.

I have done it all the time, and I EXPORT from the imovie timeline to the Sharp DVRW2U through the Firewire cable.

It goes both ways: I can IMPORT from the Sharp DVRW2U to the imovie timeline. Another member (bikerval) does it also with Premiere.

The quality in Fine mode is the same as the original miniDV camera tapes.
In SP mode, it is very good.

Encoding to the DVRW2U is done in REAL TIME.

This Sharp DVRW2U recorder is EXCELLENT.

Yvon

[eagleye]

I'm pretty new to DVD recording. I just bought a Philips DVDR75 with firewire input. I found I couldn't send video directly from my old video editor, VideoWave5, to the Philips, but I could send it to to my DV Camcorder and then send it from the camcorder to the Philips. I talked to the Philips rep and he said the DVDR75 had not been tested with VideoWave5, but he suggested several other alternatives. I bought Ulead and it works fine for .avi (type 1, I think) files. The Ulead apparently does not support other formats, so I can't tell if the Philips will accept them (I suspect it will not). Anyone try other formats with the Philips DVDR75?

[donpedro]

I used Pinnacle Studio version 8 and it worked. Not sure about type (it is somewhere in my post I guess but I am lazy now)

[DaveS]

BTW, if your standalone has a dv in jack, IT WILL NOT accept the signal from your computer to the standalone. The standalone will accept the video from the dv-out on a dv camcorder.

Not true. I tested this with Philips DVDR-75/17 and Pinnacle Studio version 8 and it worked.

wow - pretty cool - I tried this w/ the sony standalone and it worked great - vegas -> firewire -> sony / DVD

I can't say that the realtime h/w encoding in the standalone would always be better than software encoding (alot more control and I think overall quality is possible w/ the s/w) but for a price, which is time...

anyway, pretty cool...

[eagleye]

For me the issue of this topic comes down recording movies with surround sound. I don't see a way to create or backup movies on a standalone player without converting the surround sound to stereo. This may not be the case with all standalone models, but it seems to be true of my Philips DVDR75. If this is important to you (it is to me) you may want to stick with one of the computer burners.

[donpedro]

For me the issue of this topic comes down recording movies with surround sound. I don't see a way to create or backup movies on a standalone player without converting the surround sound to stereo. This may not be the case with all standalone models, but it seems to be true of my Philips DVDR75. If this is important to you (it is to me) you may want to stick with one of the computer burners.

So far I am not aware of any Standalone DVD Recorder that will preserve 5.1 sound. All of them creates Stereo only.

[Farmerbright]

On the 5.1 audio recording, Philips is promising 2 or 3 dvd recorders this summer and fall that will do it. I think the low one at CES was promised around $500.