Setting chapter points in DVD-Lab?!?!?!

[MYoung]

Okay, so I want to add a chapter points based on frame numbers in my video (48289 frames at 29.970fps), but DVD-Lab says that the chapter file should be in the format...

HH:MM:SS:CC

where CC are cents. What the hell is a cent?! Is it 0..99 where 0 is 0 seconds and 99 is almost 1 second?

Virtual Dub gives points in a video as HH:MM:SS:MS where MS are milliseconds. It also gives points as frames too. My question is when I find a frame in VDub where I want a chapter point, how do I go about converting that into the format that DVD-Lab uses (so I can import a txt file with all my chapter points). It doesn't seem to support just putting frame numbers in that chapter file ala "CellTimes.txt" with IfoEdit.

So, let's say I want a chapter at frame 36182 (0:20:07.274 in VDub). Then would that simply be 00:20:07:27 in DVD-Lab -- dropping the third digit of msecs to get "cents?" Thanks!

[proggy]

DVD-lab imports chapters in this format: 00:00:00:000

I have no idea if "cc" is the same as "ms". Have you tried importing them from Vdub to see what results? A simple text file like this works fine:

00:09:41:000
00:10:16:000
00:33:21:000
00:59:59:000
01:03:19:000
01:16:06:000

[MYoung]

I tried using VDub's format. It doesn't seem to work as the exact points that I picked are sometimes 2 seconds off and the amount that they are off is not constant when I pick times (via imported .txt file). So I tried deleting the time it chose and picked the time it chose and then it picks a different time again! Selecting exact frames where you want chapters seems broken to me, unless I'm completely missing something.

It was so simple with IfoEdit -- just type in the frame numbers where you wanted chapter points. Why doesn't DVD-Lab allow you to select exact frame numbers?! Perhaps a good question for Media Chance. This is currently my only issue with DVD-Lab. Everything else I LOVE about it, but this one thing is ticking me off! Anyone? Thanks!

[bdc]

I might be wrong, but I though the last numbers refered to the frame

HH:MM:SS:CC .... so in NTSC, with 30 fps (well, 29.979), the CC number would be 01 to 30, which would tell you which frame your are on for that second of video.

[MYoung]

That cannot be the case because there isn't a whole number of frames per second in non-drop frame NTSC, it's 29.97 frames per second.

00:00:00:29 could not go to 00:00:01:00 because 30 frames is not 1 second in non-drop frame NTSC, it's roughly 1.001 seconds. The cumulative errors in round off would mean BIG problems!

In addition, the CC field seems to be 0..99, making the term "cents" make sence.

I'm still stumped. This seems like such a basic thing -- the ability to specify exact frames for chapter points. IfoEdit did it. I NEED the capability to set exact frames as it would be pretty cheesy to have a chapter point just before or right after a shot cut. DVD-Lab MUST allow for this somehow!

[kenshin himura]

try downloading chapterxtracktor and following what it says for #6 on this guide http://www.mpegit.net/eng_dvdr_cce_basic.php to get the chapter frames. highlight them and save, then see if it will let you import them. i doubt it, but its worth a shot.

[andkiich]

Did you try indexing the frames in DVD-Lab yet? It might help.

[MYoung]

kenshin,

I'm making a DVD from scratch, not copying one already made.

andkiich,

I tried indexing the frames, but it still expects me to input chapter points in HH:MM:SS:CC format. Even after frame indexing it is still strangely inaccurate and inconsistant when I specify chapter points from a .txt file. I'm surprised no one so far has an answer to this. This is REALLY a basic thing to do! But I'm far from giving up. Keep the suggestions coming! Thanks!

[proggy]

If your making the DVD from scratch, why not manually add the points in DVD-Lab instead of importing them? Still curious to the current problem though.

Try making your chapter points in DVD-lab at the same points as Vdub and then export them to a file to see what the differences are in the formats between the two programs. Then import both files into DVD-lab again to see if they import correctly and what the differences are.

[leebo]

That cannot be the case because there isn't a whole number of frames per second in non-drop frame NTSC, it's 29.97 frames per second.

Stop being stubborn and input your chapter stop numbers as hours:minuteseconds:frames (1-29 if it's NTSC video).

It cannot be, because you don't understand timecode. Do a search for "drop frame time code" and you'll get it.


In the meantime, try it and see what happens rather than spending so much time arguing about it.

[bigb_y2g]

It might just be me, but why not just view the video in the preview window and insert the chapter points where you want it? You can visually see where you want the break. Who gives a damn about the timecode? If you want accuracy, after you set the chapter point use frame indexing.

[MYoung]

proggy,

I don't want to maunally add chapter points because I cannot get frame accuracy when I scan through the video. It skips 15 or so frames when I press the left/right arrow keys in the preview window. Do you know of a way to get frame accuracy when stepping thorugh the stream?

leebo,

I would input my chapter points as HH:MM:SS:CC if I knew how to convert to it from what VDub gives me -- HH:MM:SS:MS or frames. And yes, I've tried it which is why I'm asking about it! As for reading about drop-frame, I don't see how that matters since I'm working with non-drop frame. Instead of being a snob about how much you know and how little I know, how about you explain it or just bite your tongue and not post on this thread, alright?

I guess I'm off to play with it some more. Thanks for the help and patience everyone. As for you leebo, I can only thank you for help. Try working on the "patience" thing.

[bugster]

proggy,

I don't want to maunally add chapter points because I cannot get frame accuracy when I scan through the video. It skips 15 or so frames when I press the left/right arrow keys in the preview window. Do you know of a way to get frame accuracy when stepping thorugh the stream?

Fraid I can't actually answer your exact question, but AFAIK, chapter points must be on I-Frames, hence why DVD-Lab seems to skip 15 frames when you press left/right keys. It is jumping to the next I frame. Frame exact chapter points are not possible except on I-Frames.

If you encode your mpegs in TmpGenc, you could try the 'detect scene change' setting. This inserts an I-frame when it detects a scene change. Or you have to encode each scene seperatley to ensure you get I-Frames exactly at the start of the scene.

[MYoung]

Hey Bugster,

Hmm, I'm pretty sure I selected scene detection. I know in IfoEdit you can select exact frames for chapters/cells (CellTimes.txt). I was just wondering what the analogous way to specify frame accurate chapter points is in DVD-Lab.

[bugster]

Hey Bugster,

I know in IfoEdit you can select exact frames for chapters/cells (CellTimes.txt).

But are you 100% sure the actual chapter points are at the exact frame specified, and not the next I-Frame?

I have not found any authoring tool yet that will allow chapters anywhere but I-Frames.

If you think about it, when you jump to a chapter, the mpeg decoder needs an I-Frame to start decoding, so restricting chapter points to I-Frames makes sense.

from http://dvd.sourceforge.net/dvdnav-docs/dvdnavissues.html

A VOBU (Video OBject Unit) is a small (typically a few seconds) of video. It must be a self contained 'Group of Pictures' which can be understood by the MPEG decoder. All seeking, jumping, etc is guaranteed to occurr at a VOBU boundary so that the decoder need not be restarted and that the location jumped to is always the start of a valid MPEG stream.

[zoranb]

Those I-Frames are beggining to get in my nerves, i too have the same problem, i CANT set a chapter EXACTLY where i want it. It can only be placed on the I-Frame which can be a loss of 13 frames from the point i want the chapter to begin. Why is this happening? How in proffessional DVD movies they have no sutch problems??? I see exact chapters points on other DVD films. How can i bypass this problem within DVD LAB???

[bugster]

How in proffessional DVD movies they have no sutch problems??? I see exact chapters points on other DVD films.

The proffesionals encode each scene seperatley (often using different encoder settings appropriate to the scene). As each scene will start on an I-Frame, thats how they can set their chapter points exactly. You too could do the same if you have the time.

[zoranb]

I believe that if i were to encode each scene differently then i wouldnt be able to make one scene selection menu for the whole movie (im using DVDLAB-can i do it??) it seems that heyd be 10 or more different scene selection menus each having the chapters of the scene i encoded seperatelly...and so on...

[bugster]

You could do it encoding each scene seperateley and then joining them all into one big mpeg. Possible sync problems though.

[andkiich]

The proffesionals encode each scene seperatley (often using different encoder settings appropriate to the scene). As each scene will start on an I-Frame, thats how they can set their chapter points exactly. You too could do the same if you have the time.

I thought that is what the Frame Indexing does withput needing to change the GOP and making a non standard number of index frames.

I might be misunderstanding, but I don't know.

[Dr_Layne]

Even more frustrating in DVD-Lab is the lack of audio in the preview window. I need audio cues to set chapter points for live concert material.

[hiptune]

Even more frustrating in DVD-Lab is the lack of audio in the preview window. I need audio cues to set chapter points for live concert material.

I know this is an issue I have dealt with also. I play back the captured and edited avi file and make notes where the chapter marks are to be placed. Then refer to my hand written notes when placing these chapters. It has worked really well.

Als I have noticed the chapters do slide back or forward up to 15 frames when adding them. I don't think this is DVD Lab, but the difficulty of dealing with MPG2 files. They are no the same animal as film and video footage.

When exact chapters are important, I burn my disc on a RW, then view it and make notes on which chapters if any need reapplied. Leaving DVD Lab open the whole time. Fix the chapters that are off, and re-compile dvd. I managed to get all 8 chapteres exactly right. It took me 3 hours, but was worth it on that project.

Jeff

[zoranb]

I dont understand what u mean by "I burn my disc on a RW"

How do u fix chapters since they move by 15frames? How canu be exact?

[hiptune]

I dont understand what u mean by "I burn my disc on a RW"

How do u fix chapters since they move by 15frames? How canu be exact?

OK, a RW disc means re-writable. So when there is 3 chapters out of 8 that landed off by enough time that it bugs me, I go back to the project I left open in DVD Lab and delete the chapters that are not perfect. Then I reinsert new ones, but do the new ones closer to the area I need them and hope this time they land right this time.

I re-complie the dvd, and burn a new disc, check it and repeat if needed. It takes a few trys, but I did end up with perfect chapters.

Because when you drop a chapter in where you want it, sometimes the frame will jump out of place, sometimes not. If you knew it was going to do this in advance, you could better predict where it will default to, and thus get better chapter placement prediction. I am learning to predict this effect in advance. And redoing chapters with this in mind has helped me.

I have nailed a few chapters that were bot landing correctly by redoing them. It took some time, but it worked.

Jeff

[zoranb]

i dont think u still get the best precision over the chapters simply because from dvdlab when u play the video and search for the chapters there, u dont gt precision beacause the iframes move by 15frames so its bound to miss something there!!

[hiptune]

i dont think u still get the best precision over the chapters simply because from dvdlab when u play the video and search for the chapters there, u dont gt precision beacause the iframes move by 15frames so its bound to miss something there!!

No, I dissagree. I don't hunt for places to put chapters by playing the video. I use the Frame advance. That goes much slower than playing the video. If U play the video in DVD Lab, you will indeed have a hard time stopping the play in exactly the right place.

I believe that it is difficult to place chapeters in exact right place because it is mp2 compressed video you are working with. That is not DVD Labs fault.

Jeff

[bugster]

@hiptune, I think the point zoranb is trying to make is that no matter what technique you use, chapters points must always be on mpeg I-Frames which default to every 15th frame for NTSC video. So no matter how hard you try, the nearest you can get to the desired frame is somewhere within those 15 frames. You might be lucky and get the chapter exactly where you want or it could be anywhere up to 15 frames out.

If 15 frames (about 1/2 a second at NTSC frame rates) is close enough for you, thats great, but some want frame accurate chapter marks.

[hiptune]

@hiptune, I think the point zoranb is trying to make is that no matter what technique you use, chapters points must always be on mpeg I-Frames which default to every 15th frame for NTSC video. So no matter how hard you try, the nearest you can get to the desired frame is somewhere within those 15 frames. You might be lucky and get the chapter exactly where you want or it could be anywhere up to 15 frames out.

If 15 frames (about 1/2 a second at NTSC frame rates) is close enough for you, thats great, but some want frame accurate chapter marks.

I agree with you. I should also add that there are other authoring programs that feature easier chapter placement than DVD Lab does.

DVD Lab offers some very slick features at perhaps a lower cost than found elsewhere, but it also has some limitations. Exact chapter placement with ease is one of those limitations.

Jeff

[bugster]

hiptune, you still seem to misunderstand. The I-frame issue is not specific to DVd-Lab. No matter what authoring package you use, chapter points MUST be on an I-Frame.

[zoranb]

hiptune thanx for posting in, but only bugster has caught my meaning concerning the exact chapter point precision due to iframe disability in doing so. So bugster i take it that there is no way of setting exact points in DVDlab or any other "more proffessional" app for that matter! Is there a way i can set chapters on Premiere by any "special" means,so i can avoid placing them when the video is compressed (m2v)?