How to compare DVD Recorders ?

[donpedro]

I am reading here and there which one has better picture quality (PQ). I was wondering how do you compare ? How to create test that will determine which one is better ? Any methodologie ? Any test video ? You know... like what you can see when web sites are comparing Digital Cameras ? I was thinking of some downloadable "test screen" or "test video".

Help me to design "Guide" for testing that will allow everybody to use it. Then we can all "test".

[spiderman2k1]

I have not done a test of my own but I really wish people would upload 10 or 30 second clip's so people can download them and burn them on a DVD-RW to see on there own TV set's. I really think This would help people find the recorde they want. I bought the Panasonic E80H and have read good thing about the MPEg 2 capture. Pioneer I have read good and bad. But I still would like to see for my self before I buy

[donpedro]

Problem is that it will all depend on source and settings that they used. Since I can't eliminate settings issue... I would like to eliminate source issue... Now... where to get good video source that can be used for testing ?

[donpedro]

Hmm.... I was just thinking about it... if soiurce will be file that can be burned to DVD than it will also depend on DVD Player quality too. There is big difference between how picture looks on my two DVD Players

[spiderman2k1]

"donpedro" but i will give you a better idea then just talking about it and asking other people. And if some did a capture they havbe to say the soiurce.

[donpedro]

So do you have any idea wher to get best video for testing ?

You know... some special effects on which you can realy see common problems...

[spiderman2k1]

"donpedro" I have an idea find a good movie that has a 2 channel audio. Use DVDshrink with no no compression. Then take TMPG DVD author to edit the DVD and then edit a small 10 or 30 second clip that people can download for testing. Find a good scene with a fast scene.

Burn the test clip to a DVD-R now the clip will not have macrovision and the test clip will not be compressed. To tell you the truth I have a Pioneer Sony and JVC and APEX and the picture is about the same on all of them. But my old Sony and my Pioneer LD-DVD player those two DVD player have mudded down color. There old DVD player's. So have people post the DVD player that use to play the clip. Any DVD player about three year's old is fine. My Dad's Philips DVD player that the same age as my Sony has a better picture then the Sony and was half the price. So any old DVD player take it with a gain of salt.

People should test XP SP LP EP and FR like panansonic or another mode they might have. And test a recode mode.

The thing I must have tested the most out of any thing is XP SP and LP.

[lordsmurf]

I like to use Terminator 3 for testing recorders. It has lots of dark scenes, lots of bright effects, and lots of fast movements ... all of which can easily corrupt with a subpar encode.

I tested a handful of recorders this past week, maxed out a credit card to buy a huge assortment of them, and then returned most of them so far (full refund of course).

The APEX DRX-9000 stood out as the best recorder for quality of MPEG for 1-, 2- and 4-hour modes.

The Panasonic stood out as most user-friendly. Not the best quality at all. Has macroblocks errors on many encodes, worst recorder in my book.

The rest all had about the same, not the best encodes, a bitch to work with. Sharp, Sony, Cyberhome, Philips tested. Could not find Lite-On, refused to buy the CompUSA one (15% restock fee on returns, not doing that). Did not find Pioneer in stock. JVC not in USA.

Only used DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R and DVD+RW for tests. No DVD-RAM was used, because I only wanted to use existing media I owned.

I kept the APEX DRX-9000. Probably one of the more difficult remotes to use, but I needed QUALITY, and it provided it. Plus it was only $300 at Walmart, which can still be taken back at the end of March if I wanted to (90 day returns at Walmart).

The T3 came from DirecTV PPV, bought the movie 2 days in a row (ADT).

Used other random tapes and source for testing, but the T3 movie has the aspects that are easy to corrupt.

I'm now using the APEX in 4-hour mode exclusively, and the encode is 352x480 VBR 2.5 avg (0.0 min, 9.8 max) 256k AC3 2/0 stereo. It's a really nice encode, and I even dare say the APEX can rival (and sometimes outperform) the quality of my ATI AIW setup, which is hard to do.

The only error I have found was the IFO files can be corrupted by "Make Compatible" being used, but that bug exists on several DVD+RW recorder. It is a random fluke, not a normal occurence (though I'm still testing that out).

Hope that helps.

[spiderman2k1]

"lordsmurf" I second that T3 for testing!!!!!!!!!!

[donpedro]

lordsmurf, can you extract couple of very short scenes ? (so they are downloadable)

[lordsmurf]

lordsmurf, can you extract couple of very short scenes ? (so they are downloadable)

I wish you'd have caught me like 2-3 days ago. I never thought of making a test disc or some other thing.

I was mostly doing it for myself. Oops.

I was surviving off 4 DVD+RW discs, and erased them over and over again. I've got the Cyberhome disc (still wedged in that stupid recorder, which is on the floor ready to go back to Walmart, I'll try to pry it out ... the unit sucked and then it broke already) and then the Apex disc (already in my movies wallet).

And I took all the other units back to Fry's already. Other discs re-used now, some of them twice over (backing up all my Disney movies).

The only difference on them was 3/4-hour mode. Everything about 1- and 2-hour modes looked alike. One unit was somewhat darker, but I'm not sure which one that was anymore (not Apex). The 4-hour tended to "crunch up" on macroblocks on other units, notably the Panasonics. I think it was the Cyberhome died in dark scenes on T3 in longer play modes, others were fine.

EDIT: DUH! Some of those were DVD-R I used for tests ... let me see if they're here. I bet I trashed them, and pickup was this morning already. I'll see.

[onslaught]

Thanks for the test info LordSmurf.

I have bought the Australian version of the DRX-9000 (the Digitrx GKX-9000) and couldn't be happier in terms of the picture quality.

[donpedro]

onslaught, any help on "how to create test" ?

[spiderman2k1]

I would upload the test clip's XP SP LP EP as one file zipped so people can download them and burn on a DVD-RW. And do a capture with the DVD player and DVD recorder that have. I think a rating of 1 to 10 is good but let people rate it 9.3 or 7.4 if they want so other people get a better Idea of the picture. Also if people want to upload the test clip of there test that would be cool also.

[mike1061]

DonPedro
I have a few thoughts. My plan was to make my own test. To buy one of the Panasonic 80's, take a half hour TV show, recorded it the HD in all speeds, and see for my self. When I narrowed it down I would try the best settings on several differant brands of disk. Of course I would play them on as meny differant players as possable too.
See you could pick any show you want and use it as your test. If you use something with out copygard you don't have to worry about it interfering with the test.
Another thing is 10-30 seconds does not look like enough time to test things. Back when I tried to do this with my computer, I started with 5 minute scenes at a time, once I got them down, I went to longer shows, thats when all hell broke loose. I never even got one disk to preform the same everytime in the same mechine.
Good luck
Mike

[donpedro]

Why would I get different results from 5s, 5min or 1h ? am I missing something ?

I have got an idea... what if source file will be DV AVI and we will use MiniDV camcorder to send signal to recorder.

BTW: Space to store all that is going to be an issue. 216MB/min of DV AVI and 30-70 MB/min. Man... I am not sure if this can be done.

[spiderman2k1]

"donpedro" I do not think the miniDV is a good idea. I think it should be like we talk about test clip from a DVD. Alot of us do not have DV camcorder's. I'm not into video taping thing. I'm into recordering TV show's. DV is not a bad idea for people that want to test firewire input recordering's. We could have to test one for TV capture's that would be from T3 clip's every one already has a DVD player. And a miniDV test for people that are into firewire..

[handyguy]

"design "Guide" for testing that will allow everybody to use it. Then we can all "test"."

Why? there are hundreds of opinions on the board: Left Column: dvd writers & recorders

[donpedro]

Why? there are hundreds of opinions on the board: Left Column: dvd writers & recorders

So they can judge picture quality for themselves instead of listening somebodys biased opinion. Why ? Shouldn't I do that ?

[mike1061]

Donpedro
I was just telling what happened to me. It is true, even if I never did figure out how to fix the problem. First I did a 5 minute spot on a +RW disk. After i figured out how to get that right, I put 2 5 minute chapters on a +RW disk. That took a little more work, but I got that together. Then I put 1 hour on about 3 different disks. With about 4 chapters and a menu. The disks (all) played poorly in all of the players I tried. They pixalated or froze in differant spots on the same mechine each time I tried.
Thats why I thought something longer than 30 seconds would give a better test. It seemed to me the more info the slower the picture got (something like that at anyrate). I do a lot of side by side tests of video, and audio, I can't see just using a single 30 second sample. You have scenes that have differant lighting, different amount of motion.
Do you know what I mean, does that make sence now?
Thanks Mike.

[spiderman2k1]

"mike1061" the reason why we want the 30 second test clip's is s people can download them and burn the on there PC on a DVD-RW if they want so they can see on there own TV. We want ever one to use the same clip's. Find a sever to host the clip's is some thing else we have to look at. If any one else has a good idea please post.

[donpedro]

OK. What I did so far.... I recorded from Demo DVD about 35 minutes to Mini DV tape. I recorded all that from Mini DV camcorder to Panasonic DMR-E80H in all 4 modes through component video input on front panel. What I need now is find out how to get some frames from DVD on web. What is best method. I don't wan't to introduce additional element that can affect result. Once I find good scenes I will cut MiniDV "master" tape to something smaller that I will use to record on another DVD Recorders.

So again... question is. "How do I get pictures so I can post them here". Size and selection of right picture is issue.

How to do it ? Sugestions ?

My concerns:

1. Does software that is used to play on PC affect quality ?
2. Does method of saving picture affect quality ?
3. Is there difference between playing video and moving through video by frames ?

[lordsmurf]

Yes to all 3 concerns.

[donpedro]

Sugestions ? How to post "correct" results ?

[spiderman2k1]

Hi "donpedro" I'm sorry but I do not like the idea of using the DV file's reason as video and film will record better. When I capture Football game's they look better then some thing I capture from a movie channel. IF you want to do a DV file I think that's fine but we should use a movie also. So doing two test might also be the best way to go about this.

[NightWing]

How about this.

Use one of the "Test DVD" that has a resolution test chart. And some of the other charts. Most are unmacrovision and do offer a decent test signal to record. Pump it in from a good DVD into the recorder.

Just a though.

Any review in some of the heavy duty Video mag on any of these recorders yet?

[donpedro]

I was not relay clear... Video that I recorded on MiniDV tape was recorded from Fox Demo DVD that include couple of scenes from different movies. I have got it some time ago from Best Buy.

I also taped on same MiniDV tape little bit from grainy TV channel and some grainy scenes from VCR (movie K2) just to see what is going to happen.

It might take some time to "extract" best scenes for this small project. For now I would like to know how did other people get "pictures" from source and how to avoid adding artfacts during that proces.

[lordsmurf]

Forget all about DV.

1. Takes clips from each DVD recorder and mode.
2. Extract with an IFO rip in decrypter.
3. Edit in WOMBLE MPEG VCR (no recode done)
4. All tests should be same footage, same source, same wires, etc etc
5. Author in TMPGEnc DVD Author, as it takes VOB files. On menu, name the menu item the name of player and mode

Example:

APEX DRX-9000 XP
APEX DRX-9000 SP
APEX DRX-9000 LP
APEX DRX-9000 SLP
PANASONIC DMR E50 XP
PANASONIC DMR E50 SP
PANASONIC DMR E50 LP
PANASONIC DMR E50 SLP
etc etc etc

THAT would be a true test disc.

[zorankarapancev]

As far as I know, there is no standardized test procedure for DVD recorders.
For my testing I am using Betacam SP and DVCam master tapes from my broadcast Sony camera (I strongly believe that only the best quality source tapes should be used for testing the video recording equipment) and I watch the recordings on a Sony broadcast monitor ( the quality of the monitor is of the same importance as the quality of the source material) .
To check the recording capabilities of this machines I am looking for fast moving segments, segments with a lot of details, similar colors and high contrasts.
From my experience I found that almost every DVD recorder has excellent recording on an XP mode. The differences become obvious on SP and LP mode, the ones that are most important for every day usage.
When I am testing DVD recorders I am looking for different digital artifacts
that appears on the recorded DVD disk and do not exist on the master tapes.
It is hard to describe all those artifacts with words, but they are quite obvious to the people who are professionally involved with video production.
The best tests are the ones with several products from different manufacturers. Then it is possible to have a fair side-by-side test under the same conditions.
A lot of people will be surprised to find that printed manufactures specifications do not show the real performance and quality of their products.

[handyguy]

also you can read tons of comments on the site already, left column:
DVD Writers
& recorders feature
& user comments