chapter points - need clearer understanding of.

[vhelp]

Hi guys.

These days, i'm working w/ DVD aurhoring w/ my new OptoRite writer.

I'm learning different things about authoring to DVD media now, and I'm
having a little trouble understanding chapter/entry points when making my
DVDs (VIDEO_TS / VOBs) or whatever

Ok, the app I'm using right now, is DVD Author. There is an option to add
in Chapters to my source .mpg file, through .XML or something. Anyways..
.
.
I would guess that the issue would not matter which app I use to create a
DVD project. So, here I am.

Ok, the problem is, I'm not getting these chapters to work. I've created a
small .MPEG (.m2v/.mp2) that is 30 seconds long. Again, fit's just for test
purposes, as there is no sense making 1 hour long test files, you know what
I mean
Anyways, and when I select the Chapters button, it presents a small box
w/ numbers pre-filled as:

00:00:00.0

So, I enter in:

00:00:00.0
00:00:10.0
00:00:20.0

Note, I'm assuming there should be 3 chapters given the above.
One for the start (ie, 00:00:00.0) and then next is at 10 seconds, etc.

.. (again, just for test purposes) and when I author it, and then run the VOB
through Powerdvd or Windvd, and either press the digits and enter 1, 2 or
3; or I select (under Windvd) Chapters pulldown, it only display chapter
1. All else, and the VOB just keeps on playing w/out the other two chapters
(assumed chapters) ever working.

So, please help me to understand what it is that I'm missing here.

Thanks a bunch,
-vhelp

[HillJack]

Don't chapters have to coincide with I-frames for DVD's? Are your 10sec interval's I-frames?

[vhelp]

Don't chapters have to coincide with I-frames for DVD's? Are your 10sec interval's I-frames?

hmmm... although I've read some dicussion's with some elements of issues
on this "I" thing, I didn't realize it was serious for ALL dvd project

If that's the case, then I would assume that all apps that incorporate this
feature of Chapter Points should make this a warning before proceeding
that you have to be aware of "I" issues etc. And, with that in mind, how
would I have to proceed if I have to watch EVERY frame in my encoding
weather prior to encoding or during, to find this "I" frames ??
.
.
The warning is a good idea, especially for newbies like myself in the
DVD arena.

That seems like a lot of waist of time, energy and effort to have to keep an
watchfull EYE out on "I" frames for ever project

Any other suggestions ??

Thanks,
-vhelp

[vhelp]

.
.
hay, but lets assume we continue onward w/ this "I" frame thing, what is
the best method of reading in an .mpg file (prior to VOB'ing) and finding out
all the "I" frame locations, then getting/extracting the TIME's/"I" frames
and plugging those TIMEs into the Chapters box of DVD Author ??

Am I on the right track so far ??

:P

-vhelp

[HillJack]

If that's the case, then I would assume that all apps that incorporate this
feature of Chapter Points should make this a warning before proceeding
that you have to be aware of "I" issues etc. And, with that in mind, how
would I have to proceed if I have to watch EVERY frame in my encoding
weather prior to encoding or during, to find this "I" frames ??

You keep refering to a DVD Author so I've been assuming you mean TMPGenc DVD Author? TMPGenc won't let you add a chapter not on an I-frame from what I've seen.

As for how to find them, when doing up chapter points in TMPGEnc, if you are on the screen with the thumbnail view, there are FF and Next buttons. I don't recall which does what, but I know that one of them takes you to the next frame, and the other takes you to the next I-frame. The majority of the time, my I-frames do not line up exactly with where I want my chapters. I've learned to live with it, because a) it's only a couple frames off, and b) why screw with what already works? I like TMPGenc DVD Author, it has yet to fail me

[bugster]

Yes, Chapters must start on an I-Frame. However, in a DVD-compliant mpeg, I-frames are never more than 18 frames (NSTC) or a5 frames (PAL) apart, so it should not be a BIG issue.

I don't know if there is any other restriction on chapter seperation, but 3 chapters in 30 seconds seems like an awful lot. Maybe try a slightly longer clip such as 5 minutes and set your chapters at approx 1 minute apart.

[vhelp]

If that's the case, then I would assume that all apps that incorporate this
feature of Chapter Points should make this a warning before proceeding
that you have to be aware of "I" issues etc. And, with that in mind, how
would I have to proceed if I have to watch EVERY frame in my encoding
weather prior to encoding or during, to find this "I" frames ??

You keep refering to a DVD Author so I've been assuming you mean TMPGenc DVD Author? TMPGenc won't let you add a chapter not on an I-frame from what I've seen.

As for how to find them, when doing up chapter points in TMPGEnc, if you are on the screen with the thumbnail view, there are FF and Next buttons. I don't recall which does what, but I know that one of them takes you to the next frame, and the other takes you to the next I-frame. The majority of the time, my I-frames do not line up exactly with where I want my chapters. I've learned to live with it, because a) it's only a couple frames off, and b) why screw with what already works? I like TMPGenc DVD Author, it has yet to fail me

Sorry hilljack,

I mean, for ANY app that suppots some kind of DVD authoring which includes
"entry point" (or chapter pointrs) that they should give a form of warning or
advisement that they need to first do some looking up or homework. Some
one like my self (a newbie at this DVD authroing stuff) won't/didn't know this, hence my cry for warning or something. ..not, "danger WillRobinson"
But, that's IF this is true, that one has to manually record somehwere's, ALL
the "I" frames and their respective TIMEs to coinside w/ entry point !!

I hope I did not effend anyone, as that is NEVER my intension on this FORUM :P

-vhelp

[vhelp]

Yes, Chapters must start on an I-Frame. However, in a DVD-compliant mpeg, I-frames are never more than 18 frames (NSTC) or a5 frames (PAL) apart, so it should not be a BIG issue.

I don't know if there is any other restriction on chapter seperation, but 3 chapters in 30 seconds seems like an awful lot. Maybe try a slightly longer clip such as 5 minutes and set your chapters at approx 1 minute apart.

@ bugster,

I will try your suggestion.
However, I wish there were a better way of tracking or jotting down these
"I" frames for later, chapter point settings
.
.
I also beleive, (if memory serve me) that TMPG has the ability/feature to
allow a user to SET "I" frames at any given moment. Can you explain on
this briefly please ??


@ hilljack, (and anybody else) ..

Given the above on "I" frames, that would mean that for every encode project,
I have to manage a "separate" job of manually jotting down my "I" frames,
pfew!! That's a lot of work. Heck, Bugster, I actually have my GOPS set
to ( MAX: 18 ) anyways however, at the moment, I am not using a DVD
compliant GOP setting for the remaining numbers. Actually, I'm not sure
WHAT the exact GOP setting numbers should be. Do you all ??

In the same order as TMPG's layout:

GOP Structure:
-----------------
I: [ 0 ]
P: [ 1 ]
B: [ 2 ]

S: [ 1 ]
M: [18]
-----------------
[ ] - Output bit... (closed GOP)
[ ] - det. Sce. chang
[ ] - Forc. pict. typ. settng
-----------------

It's ben small steps for me, on DVD authoring processes. I got tired of burning
DVD-R's (cause they work 100% in my setup) And, I went out and got some
new DVD-RW and DVD+RW disks (5pk) (cause my last ones, MEMOREX)
failed in my OptoRite drive) I hope that I can be able to burn lots of test
scenarios :P

Thanks for all your support guys,
-vhelp

[bugster]

No authoring app worth the name will force you to learn the location of I frames. Its just when setting chapter points, you will be forced to the nearest I-frame so may not get it EXACTLY where you want.#

I believe the 'detect scene change' setting in TmpGenc does force an I frame on detected scene changes, so that could help. Your GOP settings look OK to me. The ones in the TmpGenc DVD templates are what you should have.

What authoring app are you using. I have not found one yet that forces you to enter a time as the only way of setting chapter points.

[vhelp]

@ bugster,

As I've said earlier, I in the learning stages w/ authoring, so be a little gentle
on me

First, I under windos 98 gold. And, as such, I am limited to the applications
that I can use for DVD projects and things. As you know (or probably don't)
TDA does NOT support Windows 98. I know, cause I tryed installing it and before
I knew it, I found out the hard way, it doesn't work !!
Hay, would be nice if the TOOLS section sliped in somewhere's, what min.
OS is requred So, TDA is out of the quesiton here. Anyways..

Right now, I'm using DVD Author. This app has worked flawlessly since I
got it working (thanks to Liquid217 for his help) I can successfully author
a VOB and burn to DVD-R's (w/ Nero) and they play perfectly on my AD-1500 :P
.
.
Now, I'm moving upward, and would like to learn Chapters. I'd like to incorporate
Chapters in my Star Wars project. So, as you can see, I'm having my share
of issues already, but none worth complaining out - almost, hehe..

Ok, so if I encode say, my widescreen vhs of Star Wars, I want to incorp.
Chapters inside it. It looks to me, like I have to note all the "I" frames to
"where" I want to Chapter it. Or, is there an easy way ??
.
.
It sounds like, what you are saying, is that say for ie, there is a scene where
the two droids escape out inside pods to the planet (about 8min into play)
I would set that as say ie, my first chapter point, 00:08:00.0 and that
becomes my first chapter. But, the problem here, is that I could have a
partial scene where they are just getting into the pod, vs. already being in
it and pushing the eject button. So, I could have a mixture of eather scene
A or scene B, but that it would be heads or tails. But, if I want to know or
set EXACTLY the scene (or frame) then I would have to go inside TMPG a
bit deeper, and navigate to THAT scene and perhaps "manaully" set it to an
"I" frame - - sounds like a lot of work, but in the end, if I want to
have a "so called" perfect DVD w/ chapters in the way (position) I want, then
this is the route I have to take. But my question is, if I have to go this route,
then, is there an easier way of performing this process ??

Thanks again,
-vhelp

[bugster]

As you know (or probably don't) TDA does NOT support Windows 98

TDA = Tmpgenc DVD Author

I didn't know it does not support Win98

Right now, I'm using DVD Author

What DVD Author, who makes it

So, I could have a mixture of eather scene
A or scene B, but that it would be heads or tails. But, if I want to know or
set EXACTLY the scene (or frame) then I would have to go inside TMPG a
bit deeper, and navigate to THAT scene and perhaps "manaully" set it to an "I" frame

You mean TmpGenc encoder here I guess. That would work, but detect scene change setting may help also.
It may seem that getting I Frames in exactly the right places for your chapters is hard work. If you must have chapters frame exact, thats the only way I am aware of that it can be done, and it is how the pro's do it I believe

[vhelp]

What DVD Author, who makes it

DVD Author (the command-line utility) can be found here:
* DVD Author 0.6

Sorry about the above, my mistake.. I ment dvdAuthorGUI
It's a basic GUI for dvdAuthor. dvdAuthor is a command-line utility, and
Liquid217 created a GUI for it.

It's a front-end (or shell) app that liquid217 developed. It's a neat little
gizmo which aids in the creation of (VIDEO_TS) and I have yet to have any
problems creating VOBs w/ his front-end tool. :P
Note, his website has the latest version though.

And, yes I realize that, that is what the pros do, but I'm sure they do have
a better more effective way of logging those "I" frame entry point :P
Just wish I had a better way. Some day, some one will create a front-end
to even this task, and I'll be happy :P

-vhelp


Here is a snip from liquid217's GUI readme.txt file:
-----------------
The DVDAuthor win32 executable was compiled with Cygwin, and is using version 0.6.8 of the DVDAuthor sourcecode. Mplex (version 2.2.2) is from mjpegtools. Mkisofs is used to create the iso image.

Features include:
multiple titles
1 basic titleset menu
chapters
multiple audio streams
ability to edit post commands
iso creation
-----------------

[bugster]

What DVD Author, who makes it

DVD Author (the command-line utility) can be found here:
* DVD Author 0.6


-----------------

Oh, OK. I know absolutley nothing of this app or its capabilities. Don't any commercial authoring apps run on Win98? SUre they must do.

[vhelp]

Don't any commercial authoring apps run on Win98? SUre they must do

Yes, but I'm not interested in installing another monster app :P
also, I'm under windows 98 gold, and I believe the most DVD type app
are requiring at a min. windows 98SE or higher to operate, and I'm not
really intersted in waisting time buying these, and finding more headakes
to alieviate. Well, anyways.. I'm more interested in freeware apps. But,
the unfortunate part is, they usually come limited. I realize that, and I really
can't complain (though I do minimally) You get what you pay for, or not
pay fore :P

Thanks for your help and understanding,
-vhelp

[maa]

IfoEdit allows authoring using frames as a reference and will accept any numbers you enter. These can be found using MPlayerClassic as it shows frames when playing. Wether the output can be read exactly by your player I know not....