Tmpgenc Noise filter alternative

[kenmo]

I like the output I get when I use Tmpgenc's Noise filter. However it triples the time to encode the Avi to a DVD compliant mpeg2. I am frame serving with VDub.

Using a similar filter in VDub would this speed up the encoding time ? If so, can anyone recommend a similar filter for VDub ? I'm not interested in Avisynth. So please NO filters for it....

Thanks

[mgh]

No noise filter comes close to TMPGEnc in quality.
Next best in my view is the preprocessing built into DivX 5 series codecs.
The smoother filter in virtualdub has noise filter checkbox-try it out.
Virtualdub also has 3rd party filters developed for specific kinds of noise. You will get links from the virtualdub site.

[SatStorm]

Read about virtualdub's "Temporal Smoother".
It is the same filter

[mgh]

The virtualdub temporal filter is no where near as powerful as the TMPGEnc filter.Some of the avisynth filters are as good-but they take same or longer time.
My policy now is to throw genuinely noisy videos off my PC rather than waste my time over them and look for a better source if I really want those videos..

[kenmo]

Is the Temporal Smoother better then the 2D Cleaner filter by Jim Casaburi ????

TIA

[SatStorm]

@mgh: Temporal Smoother IS TMPGenc noise reduction filter. The only difference is that it adds some kind of sharpness which sometimes make the results look better and some times worst.
The combination of Temporal Smoother, Sharpness and the correct resize method, has better results and really faster.
Of course, the ready avisynth script solutions can succeed better results, but those scripts are ready optimised solutions from advance users. You get them and you use them as is, only rarely you adjust them yourself....
Also, frameserving with avisynth is the faster possible one!
Finally, there is not always possible to replace without a cost your source, so the learning and use of filters are a must for the enthusiasts of this hobby.

@kenmo: There is not a best filter. Depending the source, temporal filters are better dynamic area filters or frame comparison ones.
Other filters are good for anime, others for video and others for VHS from aerial transmissions. Others are good for PAL, others for NTSC and others for DVB sources (Digital Video Broadcast).
I rarely use 2D cleaner, currently I use only Random Noise Remover 1.07b, from a russian guy I don't remember his name. I use 2D cleaner only if my source is really **** up....

[mrtristan]

If you can manage to tweak the filters for Virtualdub, then I would say that you can get "better" results.

I prefer to use Tmpgenc's internal filter and just wait... and wait... and wait... It takes a while, but it's one of those things you can set and forget. There's also only three settings, so tweaking them is a less intensive process. Well, four, if you count the "high quality picture" checkbox.

[kenmo]

Is the Temporal Filter a plugin or an internal filter ? If it is the internal filter, I've used it in the past and I found it to be nowhere near Tmpgenc's filter.....

[FulciLives]

My favorite "noise" filter is Convolution3D which works through AviSynth and is MUCH faster than the one buit-into TMPGEnc.

Also frameserving with AviSynth is MUCH faster than framserving from VirtualDub plus it seems to be less CPU intensive.

Convolution3D is just one of many filters that work with AviSynth. Some people are rather found of PeachSmoother for instance but I still like Convolution3D the best.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[kenmo]

I always find the AVISYNTH vs VirtualDub comparisions similar to the old DOS vs Windows or Unix command line vs KDE/GNome....

It's time to come of age and embrace the GUI....

[FulciLives]

I always find the AVISYNTH vs VirtualDub comparisions similar to the old DOS vs Windows or Unix command line vs KDE/GNome....

It's time to come of age and embrace the GUI....

Simply put AviSynth is faster than frameserving from VirtualDub and AviSynth is much more powerfull than VirtualDub.

There are "simple" things that are easier to do with AviSynth than with VirtualDub and there are things you can do with AviSynth that are a pain-in-the-ass to do with VirtualDub.

Just because you don't understand AviSynth and apparently don't want to learn doesn't mean you should bad mouth it.

Afterall you are asking for alternatives mostly due to the need for increased speed.

Well guess what. The answer is AviSynth.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[kenmo]

FulciLives, sorry if I offended you and I was NOT slaming AVISYNTH....

But if you re-read my original post I asked for a VirtualDub filter. I also said I was not interested a solution for AVISYNTH....

And you are correct, I'm NOT interested in learning AVISYNTH.... I am a computer profesional (it's how I earn my money) and I do computer video editing as an hobby... After fighting all day with Novell Netware, NT Server, Citrix Winframe, IBM's Tivoli, I just want to relax at my pc when I'm home and away from work....

I understand and acknowledge, AviSynth is an awesome and incredible program. It's just NOT for me....

Cheers

Kenmo

[kenmo]

Another reason for not wanting to use AviSynth is I prefer to use VirtualDub to edit out advertisements from tv broadcasts.... This can be done in AviSynth but is too awkward for me....

[SatStorm]

@FulciLives: I want to learn the most possible about Convolution3D and expecially how to use it with virtualdub. I know from video samples others show me, that is the best filter (most of the time...) for convertion from VHS sources. The problem is that I never really understood how to set it up (in the matter of fact, any document about this filter I ever found to read, is to english picky for me... I don't know english that good!). Could you link me to more infos, newbie friendly about it?
It is probably the only virtualdub filter I never manage to test for real!

[FulciLives]

Another reason for not wanting to use AviSynth is I prefer to use VirtualDub to edit out advertisements from tv broadcasts.... This can be done in AviSynth but is too awkward for me....

Actually if you edit in VirtualDubMod it will output your editing into a format that you can copy and paste into an AviSynth AVS script.

This is the one thing I use VirtualDub for and VirtualDubMod makes it easy with the built-in script editor.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

@FulciLives: I want to learn the most possible about Convolution3D and expecially how to use it with virtualdub. I know from video samples others show me, that is the best filter (most of the time...) for convertion from VHS sources. The problem is that I never really understood how to set it up (in the matter of fact, any document about this filter I ever found to read, is to english picky for me... I don't know english that good!). Could you link me to more infos, newbie friendly about it?
It is probably the only virtualdub filter I never manage to test for real!

Well Convolution3D is the best noise filter I have tested but it is an AviSynth filter.

There is a filter built-into VirtualDub called "general convolution" that sounds like it would work more-or-less the same as Convolution3D but I really don't understand how to set up "general convolution" and in fact I really don't understand the settings for Convolution3D but thankfully Convolution3D has several pre-sets based on various scenarios such as live action little noise or animation heavy noise etc. and that makes it VERY easy to use.

You capture as AVI and then re-encode to MPEG right? If you would like I could give you a sample AviSynth 2.5x script for using Convolution3D

But it seems everyone is hell bent on using VirtualDub only so I can't really help there unless you are willing to use AviSynth.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[SatStorm]

Well, basicly I grab direct the mpeg 2 DVB stream from satellite, using a nokia 9600 Digital Satellite reciever with DVB2000 firmware, through a SCSI-2 port and a piece of software called dvbrecorder 1.19d...
More or less, I need to filter a bit during resizing (if the source is not in a DVD compatible framesize, which unfortunatelly is the rule with the DVB transmissions...), but for this task, a simply Dynamic Noise reduction filter is more than enough (DVB is mpeg 2 interlace on various framesizes as you probably know...)

But I also have a huge VHS collection (20 years on tape...) which I have to convert the next 6 months the best possible way to DVD discs. Well, I have pretty good results using various filters, but this Convolution3D filter is perhaps the only filter I never manage to use since I started with this hobby, some time ago...

There is a Virtualdub filter called General convolution 3D. The homepage of the author is: http://biphome.spray.se/gunnart/video/

Is this the same filter with the avisynth one? I'm intersting for this vdub one!

To tell you the true, I know how to use avisynth, but for reasons I can't explain even to myself, I really hate it... :P
I had once an avisynth script for GC3D, but who knows where is it now... It was for CCE, an encoder which for the same reasons as with avisynth, don't like to use in general
Anyway, yes, if you can post the script. It is a usefull filter and I would like to test it with TMPGenc. But my main question is what the hell is this filter about! Nobody knows to tell me! I know that it has something to do with the matrix and previous/next and current frames, but beyond that I know nothing!

[lordsmurf]

TMPGEnc is best (IMO), but you can do things in Premiere, ProCoder, AVISynth, ATI MMC, and several others.

[FulciLives]

Well this is part (most of the good stuff) of the TXT FILE that comes with the AviSynth Convolution3D filter so maybe it will help you to understand a bit better:

Convolution3D is an avisynth filter that will apply a 3D convolution to all pixel of a frame.
for all future release see at http://hellninjacommando.com/con3d/

1 - How to use it :
Convolution3d (matrix=0, ythresh=3, cthresh=4, t_ythresh=3, t_cthresh=4, influence=3, debug=0)

Matrix choice :
0 : original matrix :
1 2 1 2 4 2 1 2 1
2 4 1 4 8 4 2 4 1
1 2 1 2 4 2 1 2 1
This matrix is useful for normal movie (not anime) because it keep more details
1 : bb idea of full 1 matrix (great idea)
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
This matrix is much usefull with animes or bad quality sources because it blur a little more (so removing more noise)

Temporal influence :
It's used especially to speed up a little this filter and to avoid using temporal informations when not needed
(scene change, fade, ...)
I first build a limit = Temporal Luma Threshold * Temporal influence
For each 2 pixel computed (due to MMX, 2 pixel at the same time), I first check this :
if
(Abs (Y0 - Y0[Previous frame]) +
Abs (Y0 - Y0[Next frame]) +
Abs (Y1 - Y1[Previous frame]) +
Abs (Y1 - Y1[Next frame])) > limit
then
do Spacial work (only 3*3 matrix)
Else
do Spacial and Temporal work (3*3*3 matrix)
The lower it is -> the faster will be the filter but compressibility should be lower
The higher it is -> the slower will be the filter but compressibility should be higher
if temporal influence is set to -1 then only spatial work is done (high speed).
This parameter is a float.

2 - Parameters sample

I build the following presets to make things easier :
Convolution3d (preset="movieHQ") // Movie Hi Quality (good DVD source)
is an alias for Convolution3D (0, 3, 4, 3, 4, 2.8, 0)
Convolution3d (preset="movieLQ") // Movie Low Quality (noisy DVD source)
is an alias for Convolution3D (0, 6, 10, 6, 8, 2.8, 0)
Convolution3d (preset="animeHQ") // Anime Hi Quality (good DVD source)
is an alias for Convolution3D (0, 6, 12, 6, 8, 2.8, 0)
Convolution3d (preset="animeLQ") // Anime Low Quality (noisy DVD source)
is an alias for Convolution3D (1, 8, 16, 8, 8, 2.8, 0)
Convolution3d (preset="animeBQ") // Anime Bad Quality (???)
is an alias for Convolution3D (1, 12, 22, 8, 8, 2.8, 0)
Convolution3d (preset="vhsBQ") // VHS capture Bad Quality (???)
is an alias for Convolution3D (0, 32, 128, 16, 64, 10, 0)



I had to test Convolution3d with bad quality TV capture and in this case
you'll have to higher especially the chroma tresholds (causing some ghosting but the overall quality seems to be better).
I personnaly use these parameters :
Convolution3D (0, 32, 128, 32, 128, 10, 0)


The thresholds of Convolution3d are only here to take care of edges and scene change. You can increase the spatial one (especially the chroma threshold) but stop as soon as you see some blurring around the edges (if you want quality). With the settings proposed you shouldn't have this problem.
The Temporal one should be left below 10 to avoid ghosting.
You should especially take care of the threshold with matrix 1, because with this matrix the current frame has less weight so it's easier to have ghosting.

You can find some informations about how it works in : http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29829
You can also find a french tutorial in : http://forum.media-video.com/viewtopic.php?t=7682

----------------------------------------

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[SatStorm]

Thank you, it seems that it is the same filter with vdub after all!
The french site doesn't work for me, only the main page loads. Overall this site looks as a good knowledge source, but have you ever tried to translate french to english and then to Greek (my native language)? Well, take my word, don't try it!!!!

Now it's time to read a bit

[kenmo]

TMPGEnc is best (IMO), but you can do things in Premiere, ProCoder, AVISynth, ATI MMC, and several others.

Lordsmurf....You have an excellent website. Full of wonderful info, but your RESTORE links are not working...Are they planned to work in the near future....

Many thanks for your great assistance in the past....

PS: StaStorm, I have no desire to learn AviSynth either regardless of it's many pros....And this is from someone whom used to program (write code) for a living...

[lordsmurf]

TMPGEnc is best (IMO), but you can do things in Premiere, ProCoder, AVISynth, ATI MMC, and several others.

Lordsmurf....You have an excellent website. Full of wonderful info, but your RESTORE links are not working...Are they planned to work in the near future....

Many thanks for your great assistance in the past....

PS: StaStorm, I have no desire to learn AviSynth either regardless of it's many pros....And this is from someone whom used to program (write code) for a living...

\

It's such a hard topic to discuss that it's taken time to make those pages. I'm almost done. It'd have been put up last week if I'd been home more.

[FulciLives]

I've never done any kind of "programming" aside from some simple BASIC back in the days of when I had a C-64 and then some HTML

Really people AviSynth is pretty simple.

It's not hard at all!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[kenmo]

I've never done any kind of "programming" aside from some simple BASIC back in the days of when I had a C-64 and then some HTML

Really people AviSynth is pretty simple.

It's not hard at all!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

FulciLives,

I started this thread to discuss viable VirtualDub noise filter alternatives to Tmpgenc's noise filter. Like SatStorm I have no intention of learning AviSynth...So all your chest pounding about AviSynth is going on deaf ears....

Can we please get back on track and discuss VirtualDub noise filters and completely drop any talk about AviSynth....!!!!

[kenmo]

Thanks SatStorm...I downloaded the Convolution3D filter from the url you kindly provided.... It looks a little complicated.....

Can anyone please shed some light on it's usage via VirtualDub ????

Thanks

[SatStorm]

Well it is a temporal and spatial filter at the same time from what I see. I did some testing after the reading yesterday, unfortunatelly not so good results... But those things need time.
I know how to use avisynth, I simply hate it... Don't know why really. And yes, my job includes PCs also, so I think this has to do with the so called "Baker syndrome": When you are baker, only rarely you eat sweets. Same story here, when you are with PCs for living, you rarely program... Long live Graphic user interfaces...
I done some programing once... I was in the 80s demo ZX Spectrum scene and later I was an amiga user. And then I had to go to the army, and when I return it was PCs and only PCs. And some people ask me why I dislake M$... Hell, PCs have no fun any more!

Anyway, I still searching for the best flter. For PAL VHS I still believe the combo of: rmPAL - Static NR (4) - Dynamic NR (8) - Sharpness (4) give me great results with normal analogue sources. An alternative to this is rmPAL - Temporal Smoother (3 to 5, never more!) - Sharpen (6) and static Noise reduction (4 - Just to blur a bit the edges...). Ofcourse resizing is a must in me, I set it always after the sharpen filter.

Other alternatives I have are video de-noise (the old version, which doesn't de-interlace, a great filter for PAL VHS), 2D cleaner if your source is really fucked up and flaxen VHS if it is PAL60 or NTSC.

I used almost any other filter, but most of them are for anime not true video. And for NTSC, not for PAL.

I'm still searching for the "ideal" SOFTWARE de-noise filter, if this is possible. It is not TMPGenc's built it noise reduction filter for sure: I mean besides that it is slow, the results ain't always what I want. And this 3d convulation is a good filter but I still don't know how to use it. I know that it is a good filter, from samples I seen from others during the last months.

[kenmo]

SatStorm.... I agree there Convolution3D maybe our naswer but it seems a little complicated at first....

I also agree with you on AviSynth. I just don't like the program and I'm being gentle....