Washed-out color + noise when converting with Digital 8 cam

[Jerry S.]

I have old 8mm tapes from the original Handycam, a Sony V9. I thought the easiest/best way to digitize and archive the videos would be to play back the standard 8mm tapes on a Digital 8 cam converting to DV on the fly over firewire. There is only one model cam still being made that will play standard 8mm with analog to digital conversion and pass-thru capabilities--the Sony TVR-350. I bought one a couple weeks ago and have been testing it's conversion capabilities.

It definitely is the easiest method of capture. I Simply play back the standard 8mm tape on the Digital 8 cam and the firewire connection passes the video to the computer as DV. I have had no sync issues, however, I'm not happy with the quality of the capture/conversion.

When I play my 8mm tapes on the Sony V9 to TV they look fine--color is normal and graininess is what you'd expect from 8mm.

When I play the 8mm tapes on the Sony TRV-350 to TV the color is washed out (especially fleshtones) and there is a noticable increase in graininess or noise. The same thing happens when I capture to my computer using the TVR-350. I enabled the TBC and DNR on the TVR-350. Video looks the same (washed-out and noisy) even when I play the tapes on the V9 cam and pass the video thru the TVR-350 to the 'puter. I even tried 3 other TVR-350's at the camera store. All had the same result. Seems as though the Sony DV codec causes the washed-out color and increased noise from the analog video.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

I would like to reproduce my 8mm videos as faithfully as possible for archival to DVD. Would using a Canopus ADVC-100 to convert and capture from the Sony V9 be any different than what I'm getting from the TVR-350? Will the DV codec in the Canopus cause the same loss of color and increased noise? Am I expecting too much from DV?

Jerry

[Tommyknocker]

If you select the right capturing software, it can adjust the color properties while capturing, or you can have your editing tools adjust it later.

[Jerry S.]

"If you select the right capturing software, it can adjust the color properties while capturing, or you can have your editing tools adjust it later."

Are you saying that washed-out color and added noise is to be expected when converting from analog video to DV?

Jerry

[triphop]

Here are my assumptions:

Tape A played on V9 -> TV - looks ok
Tape A played on 350 -> TV - looks bad
Tape A converted to DV captured, then Video out to TV - looks bad.

This would mean that there is something that the 350 is doing to the video. Now I do not have experience with this camera (I own Canon cameras) and DV/SVHS Decks. What might be going on here is that v9 is compensating for the poor analog video on the 8mm tapes and the 350 is showing the errors more faithfully. Another issue could mechanical - the tape/head alignment on the orginal equipment (v9 and Tape A) is different from the same alignment on the 350.

I would suggest looking at the Canopus ADC100 or a Video In card (even cheaper) for your PC. Then capture straight from the v9 to the PC. This will avoid playing those dirty old tapes through your nice new camera.

[mracer]

STOP...!!! Please don't put this forum through another 300+ post thread of futility over analog-DV capture quality. We have been there and done that and we don't want the t-shirt.

Before you go any further with this issue, see how it looks on TV and not just the computer monitor. Do a test capture and then send that captured video file from your computer back to analog video, through the TRV-350 and view it on your TV set.

Does it still have the "Washed-out color + noise" problem?

[triphop]

Exactly - a computer monitor and TV display color very differently. What looks washed out and nasty on a computer monitor will look ok on a TV.

STOP...!!! Please don't put this forum through another 300+ post thread of futility over analog-DV capture quality. We have been there and done that and we don't want the t-shirt.

Before you go any further with this issue, see how it looks on TV and not just the computer monitor. Do a test capture and then send that captured video file from your computer back to analog video, through the TRV-350 and view it on your TV set.

Does it still have the "Washed-out color + noise" problem?

[Jerry S.]

mracer wrote:

STOP...!!! Please don't put this forum through another 300+ post thread of futility over analog-DV capture quality. We have been there and done that and we don't want the t-shirt.

Before you go any further with this issue, see how it looks on TV and not just the computer monitor. Do a test capture and then send that captured video file from your computer back to analog video, through the TRV-350 and view it on your TV set.

Does it still have the "Washed-out color + noise" problem?

Yes, it does!
If you will notice in my origional post, playback from the TRV-350 to TV is washed-out and noisy. So is a dub from the V9 to the TRV-350 and played to TV. Also a capture burned to DVD and played on a TV. I am aware that video will look different on TV vs computer monitor--this is not the problem.

[proggy]

Maybe you can try other analog HI-8 camera models at the store without DV pass-through. Watch the movies to see if the color is washed out on other new models such as the TVR-315. If the colors look fine, then it is the TVR-350 that is messed up. If the color is washed out, maybe the V9 is doing some compensating, or maybe the V9 has misalligned heads from the beginning and so the tapes will only look good on that player. Only compare the cameras on the same tv and not a computer monitor.

[Paul Simmel]

Jerry, (and all)

Would it make sense to try taping with the new cam, that analog source, (instead of passthrough or playback) with the hope that a more faithful copy will be made from the 8mm source, then import the newly taped/converted DV via firewire? Just a suggestion...

Paul

[proggy]

That is strange, does the TRV-350 have settings for PAL and NTSC and IRE? I am not familiar with that model.

[Jerry S.]

Would it make sense to try taping with the new cam, that analog source, (instead of passthrough or playback) with the hope that a more faithful copy will be made from the 8mm source, then import the newly taped/converted DV via firewire? Just a suggestion...

Paul

I did that. I dubed from the V9 to the digital TRV-350, then played back to TV as well as imported to 'puter, burned to DVD and played on TV--same thing!

[Paul Simmel]

>>>I even tried 3 other TVR-350's at the camera store. All had the same result. Seems as though the Sony DV codec causes the washed-out color and increased noise from the analog video.

I have the TRV-33 with none of the above issues. I like others am not familiar with your cam. I'm sure that the TVR-350 would be known for the lousy DV "capture" (not saying it is/isn't). Have you looked into this possibility? Maybe check and/or post to the CamCorder Topic? I've had questions about my cam answered over there.

[thing914]

Do you have an ADVC to try out?. I had an issue:

Had two 8mm tapes from a friend, shot on different cameras. I'd bought a Sony Digital8 TRV103 off ebay and was using that. Tapes it made itself were great, converted fine (capturing over firewire using Scenalyzer Live). When I tried one of the 8mm tapes it read in the Sony fine and I got it transfered with only 1 dropped frame over 1hour.

When I tried the other 2 hour tape it was dropping lots of frames. So bad that Scenalyzer was confused and kept loosing it and breaking the capture up into separate files of various lengths. So I tried running the analog out from the Sony through my ADVC100 and that worked. Captured the whole thing as one file, with 3 dropped frames.

[mracer]

Jerry S. I read your post too quickly and missed the part where you did say you had tried it on the TV set. You must understand that some of us nearly pulled our hair out in frustration the last time we dealt with nearly this same issue, so I was a little quick on the trigger.

Anyhoo, it appears from your diagnosis that the TRV-350 sucks at analog to digital conversion. Is there anyway you can borrow a Canopus ADVC-100 to try out, or visit a local dealer who might let you test one? I think the ADVC-100 is the best route to success for capturing your old 8mm tapes.

[vhelp]

This is what I think.

If you are getting washed-out color output, then it would seem that your
TRV-350 has the (canon zr-10) bug - - "color washout" of which I suffered
from for the duration of my ZR-10. I found out that, by performing an
Analog capture (using S-Video) from my ZR-10 cam, and to my ATI-TV Wonder
card (via S-Video) I would get very clean colors again. It turned out that
the ZR-10 suffered a bad "design/DV chip" circuitry setup, and I think that
your TRV-350 is showing these same signs.

I would try and do a few testing scenarios though.

* Do an S-Video capture from your 8MM to your capture card, and

* Do an S-Video capture from your TRV-350 cam to your capture card.

See what both final capture output .avi files show in color quality.

What we're (I'm describing above) is to find out where the problem is.
If you get better color output, then its safe to assume it's your TRV-350's
DV chipset, else if it failes, it's something else.

-vhelp

[andie41]

This is a subject I am very interested in; I have been doing a great deal of experimenting and reading as I have a similar setup and have had difficulty getting detailed info. I have about 50 hours of 8mm and Hi8 tapes I wish to convert to DVD and, of course, want to find a really good method for this conversion.

I recently purchased a used Sony TRV330 and have been testing the AD conversion process, etc. My camera works really quite well and I have just been fine tuning. I am definitely not an expert, but this is my understanding to date:

I am not certain regarding the washed out appearance, but here are some things to consider.

I have experienced washed out colors when going from my Sony TRV330 to the TV by S-video cable and discovered a problem with one of my cables not fitting the camera properly. By adjusting the cable, my colors returned. Also, my 330 has a A/V to DV out setting and, as I understand it, this should be set to off if you are converting to DV with a analog tape in the camera, and should be set to on if you are sending analog in from another source to "pass through".

Your Sony V9, I assume, is strictly analog and thus looks fine when output to a TV. NTSC analog is designed with limited luma, and in this case the camera and TV would match (7.5 IRE floor). But sending DV to your TV (converted with the 350) should be sending a Zero IRE floor in the luma, depending upon the camera's codec (this is the DV spec as I understand it). In my case, this results in a dark picture on my TV because NTSC cannot handle the zero IRE and details in the blacks are lost (unless I adjust the brightness level of the TV).

Many, if not most, North American DVD players are designed with a 7.5 "setup" to compensate for the low black level, so taking the DV signal from the 350 to the computer and encoding and producing a DVD with a zero IRE (again DV spec) and played in a DVD player, should produce the proper luma range. Conversely, if you produce a DVD with the NTSC spec (7.5 IRE), when it is played in a DVD player, will result in "muddy' blacks and perhaps a washed appearance. This is also very much tied into the question regarding checking the "output YUV data as Basic YCbCR..." in TMPGenc. From what I have learned, I am beginning to think this should be selected if I am producing DVD's to be played on a standalone player, but not selected if copying to tape.

I have made colorbars to adjust my TV luma and color levels and it really helps in standardizing your TV settings. If I take colorbars into a NLE such as Media Studio and output this from the timeline to my Sony 330 and then to my TV, I adjust my TV settings and get proper display; however, if I encode these colorbars to DVD and put in my standalone player, I get washed out colors and muddy blacks, because the builtin "setup" kicks in. What I really need is a proc amp between my camera and TV, but that is another story.

I hope I haven't been too confusing; I am really trying to get a handle on this myself.

[Jerry S.]

Do you have an ADVC to try out?

No, and I live in a rural town so there are no electronics stores nearby that carry the Canopus. I think I'll just order it this weekend and give it a try. I can get it online for $200 (free shipping). If the ADVC-100 gives the same results as the Digital 8 cam, I'll sell it on eBay.

In response to vhelp's suggestions---unfortunately the Sony V9 is pre S-Video, it's outputs are RCA and RF (not the best connections) and I have no analog capture card. That's why I bought the Digital 8 cam, so I could capture direct to my Mac via firewire.

I understand that any DV codec will not create an exact replication of how the analog video appears. I just expected The Sony Digital 8 to play back the standard 8mm video to TV with the same appearance as the 8mm Sony V9 playback. But I still wonder--am I expecting too much from DV, is what I'm getting as good as it gets?

I guess I'll get an ADVC-100 and compare the results to my TRV-350 (the only camcorder still made that's capable of standard 8mm playback AND DV conversion). And, yes, the TRV-350 is an NTSC cam. That's the only way I'll know for sure if DV can faithfully replicate my 8mm family treasures or if what I'm seeing is to be expected from DV technology.

Thank you all for your suggestions!

Jerry

[andie41]

I know there are a number of ADVC owners who are passionate about this product, but whether the AD conversion in the ADVC is a bit better or bit worse than the Sony is not, IMO, the issue. Before I bought my 330, I did a fair bit of reasearch and read many comments and reviews regarding the AD conversion of the Sony cameras - 120, 320, 330, 350, 530, etc. I don't believe, from your description, the problem is with the 350 AD per se - too many people have had success with their Sony conversions and my 330 certainly works fine. Perhaps a defective camera, but you say you tried several. What about cables? Monitor adjustments? Firewire cable? When you tried other 350's, what was the setup? The store had computers with firewire and you "captured" DV video into their computer and it was washed out? What was the salespersons comment and/or suggestions?

[rma155]

My TRV350 works great converting analog to digital. This may not be your problem, but I experienced washout at first but I had inadvertently switched my radio shack rf modulator (between my DVD player and TV) to 1K instead of 75 ohms. There's a switch on the back. It needs to be 75 ohms. It was driving me nuts until i figured it out. I thought it was my camera, my encoding software, you name it. It was simply the wrong switch setting in the connection.

[petsin]

I also have played my old Hi8 tapes without problems on a Sony TRV-820 and a TRV-330. In both cases I have done DV capture on the PC and the video looked good. I don't remember having seen any shift in quality/color or black levels. May be I have to do a closer look next time, just in case. As many people here have said, all Digital 8 cameras WILL play your 8mm tapes and output them on the DV out (that was the main reason for their existance in the first place 8)). Also, most mini DV cameras will do a pass-through DV conversion from the analog S-Video or Composite in. You may be able to borrow some from friends and try again before you invest in a more expensive video digitizer.

Good luck

[FulciLives]

SONY is Japanese

In Japan NTSC has a 0.0 IRE BLACK LEVEL but in the USA it is 7.5 IRE BLACK LEVEL

My guess is the conversion to DV from an analog source on the SONY is set to 0.0 IRE BLACK which would result in washed out colors.

PANASONIC had this problem with the first 3 generations of DVD-RAM/DVD-R recorders before they made the IRE BLACK level selectable.

Unfortunately if I am correct ... there is no way to fix it really.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman