Evolution of the Camcorder...

[Red96TA]

Only within the last couple months have Sony and Panasonic released camcorders that record to the mini-dvd format...it's about time.

The real question is: If they can make 40gb-60gb mp3 players, why didn't they just skip the step of recording to mini-dvd and go straight to recording to HD? Wouldn't this make 'capturing' (if you can call a HD to HD capturing) a LOT easier? Granted, I can use mini-dvd/rw's, but the point is moot isn't it?

My proposal: A camcorder with a 60gb HD built in. The option screen on the LCD display would ask what format and bitrate you want to record at...pay divx a little bit of cash to license their technology for the option to record directly to divx, mpg1, mpg2, uncompressed...bitrates would range from 500-10k. The display could then calculate the minutes of recording space on the disk...ala any digital camera on the planet.

Seriously, I think they are wanting to rip us all off. The hardcore guys went to Hi-8, then mini-dv, now mini-dvd....the only step that makes life easier is that you would have to rip instead of capture.

What are your opinions on the subject?

[afree]

I would agree that they should build that type of video camera.

But weather it costs cheaper to make, doesnt mean it will always be cheap. That would be a very pricey camera.

Basically theres only so much amount of technology available at this time. Noone can predict the future on how good is "too good" so they release the technology slowly. This way they can pump out more products every year as the years go by, and they gain more profit.
Hope that made sense
So i wouldnt expect to see that within the next year or so.

[bugster]

What makes you think Mini-DVD is better than MiniDV/ For the average Joe who just wants to shoot and then play it on his home DVD player, it may be fine (are these things compatible with standalone players?). But for anyone who wants to edit on a PC, this kind of camera will be a waste of time. Mpeg is tough to edit and only a few apps do a decent job of basic cutting and splicing, never mind anything more complex.

Now a question. What are the technical specs of these cameras in terms of resolution, bitrate, GOP structure etc. What is the capacity of mini-dvd discs. Can you point me at these.

[energy80s]

I do know that the Hitachi's aren't very good quality and will pixelate like crazy on pans! They use 3" discs and have different recording modes allowing up to an hour per disc. My advice is to avoid them like the plague.

[Roundabout]

Actually, there is such a thing, though it may not have been released yet (it's due this month) from Samsung. The "Digital Gadget" camcorder, which was announced at CES in Las Vegas last Jan (I played with one for a few minutes there, everyone wanted to check it out). There are 3 models, the ITCAM-5, ITCAM-7 and the ITCAM-9. The only thing I'd like to see is a bigger HDD (it's 1.5 GB) so you could record longer. It records to MPEG-4. Here's a picture of one from the Samsung website, along with specs:



A. Basic Specifications:
Format: MPEG-4
Dimension(WxHxD) 62 x 105 x 36
Weight(Net) 195g
Power Consumption
LCD on / EVF off 4.0W / 3.8W
LCD Monitor
Size 2.0" Trans-Reflective
Pixel 211K
Bright Adjust O
Color Adjust O
Rotation Angle 270 deg.
Mirror O

B. Camera System :
Lens
Optical Zoom Ratio 10x
Focal Length (f) 3.15 ~ 31.5mm
F.No(Wide / Tele) 1.8 / 2.5
Zooming Speed Variable 4 Step
Filter Diameter 30
Macro Wide Macro
CCD
Size 1 / 6"
Pixel (Max / Effective) 350K / 320K
Features
Auto Focus O
Manual Focus O
Program AE
1. Auto O
2. Sports O
3. Spotlight O
Manual Shutter 1 / 60 ~ 1 / 10000, 8 Step
Auto Shutter Speed O
Auto White Balance O
Manual White Balance O
Manual Iris Set 30 step
Snap Shot Photo
Digital Special Effects
1.Art O
2.Sepia O
3.Nega O
4.B/W O
Back Light compensation O
Fade In/Out O
Low Light sensitivity (Visible) 0.5 Lux

C. Storage Device: HDD or Memory Stick
Features:
Bit Rate & Recording Time VGA - Super Fine: about 66mins
- Fine : about 80mins
- Normal : about 133mins
QVGA - Super Fine : about 133mins
- Fine : about 200mins
- Normal : about 400mins
Resolution (Motion) VGA / 640x480
Audio
Recording 44.1KHz
Playback 32, 44.1, 48KHz
Volume Adjust O
Built-in Microphone O
PC Decorder Divx (Windows/ Mac for version9)
PC Encorder O
Worldwide AV Output O

D. Digital Camera System
Storage Device HDD or Memory Stick
Still Image Format JPEG
Resolution VGA / 640x480
Image Quality Mode Super Fine / Fine / Normal
Super Fine : about 60 cuts
Fine : about 120 cuts
Normal : about 240 cuts
Multi Display O (6 scene)

E. MP3 System
Storage Device HDD or Memory Stick
Format MP3
Download O
Upload Optional

F. Voice Recorder System
Storage Device HDD or Memory Stick
Format AD-PCM / Stereo
Bit Rate & Recording Time 352.8Kbps/560mins

G. PC Interface
USB Version : 2.0
USB Streaming Max. QVGA 30Frame
Bundle Software 1 Decoding S / W
Bundle Software 2 Encoding S / W
Bundle Software 3 'Image Mixer' by PIXELA OS for USB Win98SE~XP
Mac. / ver8.5 - ver9.1
Recommended PC System Min. : P3/600MHz, 128MB,10GB
PC Camera QQVGA / Max 30fps

[Icu2]

Yes the recording straight to divx sounds good and sll but maybe movie places like universal and companies like that have told or payed them money not to do this. Because since everything is getting smaller technology wise pretty much You could easily take these cameras into the Cinemas set ur bitrate setting up to like 2000 (lot higher and clearer than other filmed in Cinema movies) record the film take it hopme chop and change make it look nicer audio could be easily sound better. That probably doesnt worry panasonic and thoes companies but might affect the movie companies.

Even know striaght to divx or mpeg 2 or wateva is a damn good idea love to take the camera out record and put it straight to svcd vcd wateva.


ICU2

[sitlet]

yea thats a good idea. but these days, people want things to be easy. they want dvd to be just like vhs. record on a camera, then pop the same tape into the vcr. they want to record to a dvd then pop that into a dvd player. most people have no idea about editing video on a pc. they think the only way to get video onto a dvd is to buy a standalone dvd recorder, just like a vhs recorder. people want the easy way out

[mec_modifier]

Now see, the problem is that there is already such a thing....if you have a good $25,000usd to spend. Of course, this is a modified high end professional broadcast ENG camera. I read a bit about it in a magazine article about the NAB2003 (National Association of Broadcasters trade show). Apparently, it's a HD DigitalBeta Camcorder (kinda like what your local newstation uses out in the field) with an optional Hard Drive. The neat thing about this camera is that it records the video into the format you need for editing, if you happen to have a top of the line turn-key editing system, like an AVID. It's been a few months since I read the article, so I'm a little iffy on the specifics.

At any rate, I lay odds that in the near future (say 5 years) that we will see more consumer and prosumer camcorders that record direct to hard drive. The biggie will be deciding what format to record the video to.

[energy80s]

It'll be a little bit more than 25 grand as a standard Betacam SX is 26 and Digitbeta's start at 30.

[Icu2]

What standard do you think they will use. I think either some type of straight dvd something that u just conect to your computer open up the program that came with it and u just drag the file off the camera into this program hit burn stick a blank into ur DVD burner and there you go.

I also think there might be differant settings like High medium low. Possibly even SVCD mpeg -2 that could be a possibility. But i feel that dvd will be the way to go at the moment.

Is there anyother formats comming out soon or out and just not well known that could pose a threat to dvd for quality and size?



ICU2

[mec_modifier]

It'll be a little bit more than 25 grand as a standard Betacam SX is 26 and Digitbeta's start at 30.

Yeah, I was just guessing at it...I'm more familiar with prices for the old crap we use at work...

[Ironballs]

I agree with pretty much what everyone's saying, but I would skip the record to HD step. RAM is always falling in price, so I would use a compact flash card instead. You can get, I think, 1 Gig CF cards, so 90 of MPG4 should fit just fine. The beauty of using RAM is of course no moving parts, less power and trafering to a pc would be a doddle, just slide it into a CF reader.

Jus my bit buds. Say with the new crapyright laws in the USA, can I sue anyone that uses this idea?

[Ironballs]

I agree with pretty much what everyone's saying, but I would skip the record to HD step. RAM is always falling in price, so I would use a compact flash card instead. You can get, I think, 1 Gig CF cards, so 90 of MPG4 should fit just fine. The beauty of using RAM is of course no moving parts, less power and trafering to a pc would be a doddle, just slide it into a CF reader.

Jus my bit buds. Say with the new crapyright laws in the USA, can I sue anyone that uses this idea?

[The village idiot]

I'm surprised that no one has put this in yet...

Avid has had a hard disk based recorder for cameras for several years. It worked in concert with their Avid Newscutter machines. About $25K for the HDD back... camera and lens extra!

Panasonic has recently released a camera that uses a LARGE flash card to record onto. About $15K+ plus a lens I think, but could be wrong. This would be DVCpro format too.

Jvc has a new DV based Hard drive recorder that docks onto their cameras (I can even give you a link for this one). It will allow you to record to DV tape, or HDD, or both, or one then the other. http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/features.jsp?tree=GA&feature_id=01&model_id=MDL101380

Now you can buy a "decent" DV based camera with lens (GY-DV5000U) for around $6000, and then for another $1900 to add the DV hard disk recorder. I haven't tried the HD recorder yet, but the DV5000U is a decent camera for the price. I think this HDD recorder will dock with some of the other and newer models of JVC camera. And maybe dock to other cameras as it seems to have analog video/audio inputs at the multi connector. Then all you need is a hot-swap firewire enclosure at your edit station, and you are ready to edit!

[bugster]

You want a camera that records direct to HD, take a look at this


Edit: Hmmm, I can't see the website anymore!

[The village idiot]

Hard drive recorders are nothing new, they have been around for a while now.

http://www.mcetech.com/quickstreamdv.html

http://www.datavideo-tek.com/navigation_frames/dv_bank/entire.htm

http://www.lairdtelemedia.com/products/ultraseries.html#CAPDIV

The Laird and Datavideo have been around for at least a year.