Quick guide: ATI AIW capturing 5 hours to DVD high quality

[lordsmurf]

Alright, just a brief run-down of some settings for putting 5 hours and 15 minutes on DVD with ATI MMC

** Refer to www.lordsmurf.com and the "Video the LS Way" links for structured capture guides with images and more detailed information. This is just a settings augmentation for 5 hours to DVD. **

ATI MMC = 352x480 VBR with 2.8 max, 2.5 avg and the min is set to 0 by ATI MMC internally ... use the HEAVY videosoap to purify the signal, which decreases the color palette ... capture 256k MP2 audio ... IBP radius is left at default, do not augment to my 2-2 structure this time ...

Next go to the audio, demux in TMPGENC, fix audio if needed, then encode in BESWEET to AC3 with 160k AC3 stereo output ... should result is a DVD about 4.3 GB in size ... if it turns out too big, use DVDSHINK with DEEP ANALYSIS ...

This worked well on a disc I did today. Was not perfect quality source to begin with, but the final product does still look and sound twice as good as the source tapes.

Not recommended as the "normal" process for a good DVD, but decent if your source is a really degraded LP/SLP/EP VHS tape and you wish to squeeze the whole thing on one DVD.

I was surprised at how well this turned out.

[PolarBearWY]

Not recommended as the "normal" process for a good DVD, but decent if your source is a really degraded LP/SLP/EP VHS tape and you wish to squeeze the whole thing on one DVD.

So what would you recommend for capturing from a Dish Network receiver that will be burned to DVD?

I have seen your site, and it appears that your "movies" template is more for an SVCD. Maybe I'm just confused about why I'd want to capture a 480x480 source at 352x480 instead of 720x480. I'd like to be able to get as many 43-min TV shows on a DVD without sacrificing ANY quality from what my original source was (the S-Video output of the receiver).

Currently, I'm using MPEG2-DVD 720x480 3.85 Mb/s CBR with LPCM audio.

I'm asking you because honestly, I'm not sure my eyes can see a difference between the results of a capture at 3.85 Mb/s, 1.5, 7.0, etc. Plus, it doesn't help that my TV is a 51" 4:3 RP, so the TV show is probably never all that clear (to my eyes) anyway. Quality is important because I will be mailing the DVD+Rs off to family that can't watch some of these shows, due to time conflicts.

I'd like to finally commit to a capture mode and start getting some of these things off my PVR... hehehe.

Merci en avance, 'Smurf.

[lordsmurf]

The average 400sx480 DISH/DSS sources don't look much different at 352x480 and you can use 4.0 MB/s bitrate, which is better than 720x480 at anything under 8.0 MB/s.

Even then, not ALL sources from satellite are exactly in the 400s range, some are somewhat lower, some are somewhat higher, depends on station.

Resolution doesn't mean anything until adequate bitrate comparisons are made. I can grab 3.42 MB/s 352x480, but it would take 6.84 MB/s 720x480 to look the same (and the only difference MAY be finer resolution). But then again, what IS the ORIGINAL source of the satellite source. They very well may upsize some content, but that by no means increases anything other than the original size and bloats it out.

If HBO starts at 352x480, and then Dave/Charlie upsize to 480x480 or 544x480 or whatever, you capturing at 352x480 or 720x480 makes no difference as the quality will never be any better than the original 352x480 source that was given to the satellite feed.

This is where you're required to know the source. I've found myself privvy to a lot of this info in the past, so I happen to know what a lot of them are. This is why my overall guidelines are 352x480 for everything but PPV movies, which can be done at 720x480 as long as adequate bitrates are allowed. Anything else is just overkill and personal preference.

This 5 hour DVD looked fine on cartoons, not sure how it will handle live action.

Yes, my "3-movies" template is MPEG1 1856k for 3 movies on one disc in slightly-higher-than-VCD quality.

MPEG2-DVD 720x480 3.85 Mb/s CBR with LPCM audio is a horrible template. At only 3.85 MB/s you're losing about 2/3rds of the data you should be retaining. That bitrate would only be good for 352x480 resolution. If you insist on 720x480, never dip below 5.5 at the bare minimum. Macroblock problems below that.

[PolarBearWY]

Thanks for the time, Smurf. As always, your explainations are clear.

I have only been insistent on 720x480 because that's what Adobe Encore DVD 1.0 will allow. It won't allow me to import a 352x480 asset, if I remember right.

I just started using Adobe Premiere 7.0 for my editing and joining. Maybe I should change programs for my DVD authoring as well. I just love the setup of Encore DVD. I know the ins and outs of the program and it does everything I want it to, so that was my limitation. I guess I'll check out some of these trial or freeware programs people speak of.

Thanks again.

I'm off to recapture an episode at 352x480, burn it and see what it looks like.

[trevlac]

Thanks for the time, Smurf. As always, your explainations are clear.

I have only been insistent on 720x480 because that's what Adobe Encore DVD 1.0 will allow. It won't allow me to import a 352x480 asset, if I remember right.

You can probably get by, by changing the mpeg header on the file before you import it into Encore. Then change it back on the vobs that come out the other end.

I don't have Encore, but this works for Maestro. However, it does limit some of the functionality. May be worth a try if you really like the app.


There are a number of simple tools that allow this. I can't remember what I used. Here is an example: https://www.videohelp.com/tools.php?tool=154#comments

[Bodysurf]

If you use those bitrates, and your encoder accurately follows them, there is no way 5 hours of footage will fit on a 4.38GB DVD-R. You will have to use DVD-Shrink on it each and every time for it to fit.

In order to fit onto a 4.38GB DVD-R, if the audio bitrate is 160Kb/s, then the average video bitrate can be no larger than approximately 1865Kb/s.

When I try and fit that much on a 4.38GB DVD-R and it has to be playable in a DVD-Video player, then I encode:

Video: Quarter SIF with DVD-Video compliant CBR 1.856Mb/s MPEG-1
Audio: 2-channel 160Kb/s Dolby Digital (AC-3).

And the quality is slightly worse than good VHS.

[lordsmurf]

If you use those bitrates, and your encoder accurately follows them, there is no way 5 hours of footage will fit on a 4.38GB DVD-R.

Normally I'd agree, but not in this instance. The VBR encode and the VideoSoap usage is what makes the difference. Again, it purifies your color palette which hence affects the needed bitrate for the image.

I only had to shrink mine to 97% because I had a 2.6 avg bitrate. The next disc I made I used 2.5 avg and it hit 4.34GB with no shrink needed.

Try it before disbelieving. This was a gamble I took, and it turned out well.

[Bodysurf]

If you use those bitrates, and your encoder accurately follows them, there is no way 5 hours of footage will fit on a 4.38GB DVD-R.

Normally I'd agree, but not in this instance. The VBR encode and the VideoSoap usage is what makes the difference. Again, it purifies your color palette which hence affects the needed bitrate for the image.

I only had to shrink mine to 97% because I had a 2.6 avg bitrate. The next disc I made I used 2.5 avg and it hit 4.34GB with no shrink needed.

Try it before disbelieving. This was a gamble I took, and it turned out well.

I believe you and I am certainly glad it works out for you and is working out well. I just don't believe that ATI's VideoSoap is encoding at the average bitrate it tells you it is. Unless my bitrate calculator is on the fritz, math is math and you can't fit what is being claimed.

It would be interesting to run the output thru Bitrate Viewer and see what the results are. I would be willing to bet money the average bitrate is around 1850Kb/s rather than 2500.

[lordsmurf]

Ah! I see you now. Yeah, it may very likely have a lower numeric average than what I allowed the file, but that would only be because it was not needed. Again, this was cartoon source, so not sure how well it will react with live action source, not yet at least.

[Sulik]

For a single-pass encoder, it is pretty much impossible to guarantee a truly accurate average bitrate, unless the encoder uses CBR-like encoding, which would be bad for quality. In this case, it's more of a target average bitrate, and if the content is very simple (like cartoons), chances are you'll end up under your target bitrate.

[PolarBearWY]

My post is no longer on topic of the original thread, but since it was spurred by your thread, I'll go ahead and keep it here. Sorry.

So, I started capturing at 352x480 @ x Mb/s.

When I use Adobe Premiere to edit out the commercials, it encodes my video to 720x480 for me, even though I told it the original source was 352x480 in custom setup. So I am right back to where I started from... 720x480 @ 4 Mb/s or so. LOL.

Would you suggest that I stop using these Adobe products that are so strict with the standards, or would you suggest that I drop my idea of putting (3) 44-min TV shows on ONE DVD+R??

And I guess my other question is... since Adobe Premiere is going to encode my MPG anyway, should I just capture at 720x480 @ 8 Mb/s, then let Adobe do the work for me later while I play with VBR settings that would allow me to fit (3) 44-min MPGs on one DVD+R?

I'd think that capturing at VBR then having Adobe re-encode at VBR would be a loss-loss situation.

[lordsmurf]

You'll probably just have to drop Adobe Encore for now.

Using Premiere and MainConcept (Adobe MPEG) will still yield 352x480 files if you encode that way.

If you capture MPEG and just remove commercials, I'd suggest Womble MPEG-VCR because the Adobe method will always re-encode.

Look at anoth er authoring application. If you found Encore easy to use, I'd stress spending $99 on DVD-LAB beacuse it's a more versatile program that Adobe. And that's sad too. Just plain sad.