Newbie question on VCR to DVD transfer

[lbblock]

Hi, I have read a lot on the subject and understood some of it. I am here for a reality check on my setup.

I have 25 47-minute TV shows that I want to transfer to DVD-r. Some are on VHS tape, most are on my Dish PVR. My goal is to get the transfers to be as good as possible but I realize...garbage in- garbage out.

My set up is not optimal but many articles say it is good enough.... some don't. Slow is OK, dropped frames are not. I may try to do some simple editing once captured. I am worried about multi-segment capturing that I understand will be needed due to the lengthy TV shows, due to possible resource limitations and what about that 2Gb Windows limit thing(?).

Win98SE, 1GHz P-3, 120Gb 7200rpm video only HDD UDMA, 80Gb 7200rpm UDMA primary HDD, 512Mb ram, 256Mb L2, ATI AIW 128 (Rage) 32mb PCI, LiteOn DVD+/-RW 4x burner DMA. ASUS CUSL-2 mobo. The burner came with MyDVD 4.5.

That is about it. I know that there will be a learning curve to all of this, but I don't want to test out 25 different codecs and I plan to make my DVD authoring simple and practical.

I also have a PCI Fireward capture card and a Sony miniDV camcorder. (I read that this combo offers some options, too)

Can this work out as hoped with what I have? Thanks for having a newbie forum,

LarryB

[nasdravi]

The easy and fast way is:
Capture with Ulead Video Studio at mpeg2 352X576(pal) or 352X480 (ntsc). This is a valid dvd resolution so you don't need to render later.
For sound use 48 KHz and mp2 at 128 k. and field order B (these are capture settings you have to use in Ulead video studio)
Use a VBR of 3500 so you have a 4 GB file for about every 3 hours of video (4GB is the max for FAT32).
Feed the result 4 GB file to TMPEG DVD author and burn. That's it.
good luck!

[theDruid]

That sounds like good advice.

However, I'll just point out one potential problem:

Your CPU (1ghz Piii) may not be fast enough to capture directly to MPEG-2. This is a highly compressed (lossy) format, which means that the system has to do a lot of number-crunching to work out what data to discard and what to keep. A 1gig Piii might not keep up.

On the other hand, if the system is not fast enough to cope with capturing directly to a highly compressed format, you'd want to look at capturing to a less-compressed format (and then encoding later). This is just common sense, I suppose, and it's the approach many people recommend - regardless of system limitations.

So, HuffyUV or one of the MJPEG codecs might be worth a look - but then you'll run into problems with file-size limitations with your FAT32 (Win98) system.

You may well have realised that this is the problem you are facing.

If I were you, I would look at an upgrade; if not of your CPU/mobo, than maybe to WinXP or Win2K (the latter is my preference). With these flavours of Windoze, you can use the NTFS filesystem (as opposed to FAT32) - which effectively has no limit on filesize.

Of course, you could capture using segmented files - as you said - to overcome the limitations of FAT32, but I'd think this would be fiddly when it comes to editing, encoding etc...

cheers,
mcdruid.

[lbblock]

You guys have brought up some great points. Your comments on these observations below would be most appreciated. I assume from the above that if I capture in MPEG-2 that I avoid FAT32 limitations. 4Gb was mentioned but I had earlier understood that to be 2Gb.

My primary issues are therefore:

• 1. CAPTURE and CPU (can 1GHz P-3 capture directly to MPEG-2?) I can....
  .....a. Change Mobo/cpu to a P-4 to capture faster and avoid FAT32 limits
  .....b. Do something to relieve the cpu during capture like shutting down
  W98SE to bare bones... what about bridge devices that I have heard of?
  .....c. With 25 47-minute TV shows to do, multi-segmented capture seems like torture... confirm????
  .....d. What about overclocking the mobo?? It is well known for that.
  2. Sound card: ATI AIW Rage 128 32mb. No comments on that indicate that it should be good as is.. confirm??? I do have MMC 7.2 but no one seems to like it??.
  3. Can MyDVD to what Video Studio does??
  4. Regarding the suggestion of capturing mpeg2 in 352x480 ntsc", what does that mean in terms of quality vs. higher values? I assume that is resolution (horiz by vert).... don't I want at least 450x450 to maintain the quality level that I now have? and... 3 hours of video in 4Gb seems..... too good to be true! Am I losing a lot with that compression?
  5. If I use MyDVD will I still have to chose a Codec??

I know this is a lot to ask. Most guides seem to want maximum this and best available that. I need to try to get the best that I can with what I have right now and your help and experience is most appreciated.

LarryB

[indolikaa]

1. CAPTURE and CPU (can 1GHz P-3 capture directly to MPEG-2?)

Likely to be an issue, even with the ATI card. You might luck out, though, as the Intel PIII-1000 is one of Intel's gems.

a. Change Mobo/cpu to a P-4 to capture faster and avoid FAT32 limits

The FAT32 limit is established by the OS, not the processor. You can convert FAT32 to NTFS if you use Win2000 or WinXP. WinDV can work around this problem automatically with DV, but the only way you can concantenate the files is through VirtualDub frameserving, and I don't know if MyDVD or Vegas supports frameserving.

Upgrading to an Intel Pentium-4 will not necessarily speed up the capture, but you will be able to increase your realtime bitrate and/or shorten the amount of time a software encoder will take to do the job.

b. Do something to relieve the cpu during capture like shutting down W98SE to bare bones... what about bridge devices that I have heard of?

Not familiar with bridge devices, but shutting down all non-essential background software is critical. And physically disconnect your DSL router/cable modem to ensure none of the 65,000+ ports are active.

c. With 25 47-minute TV shows to do, multi-segmented capture seems like torture...

It is, but not with ATI MMC. The problem here maybe the version you are using and the limit on how high you can upgrade with the card in question. LordSmurf can answer this one.

When using WinDV with VirtualDub and TMPGEnc, it's pretty painless. But that puts you back into the DV.avi arena.

d. What about overclocking the mobo?? It is well known for that.

Worth researching, although I'm not sure about the PIII-1000 specifically. Wouldn't hurt to find out.

2. Sound card: ATI AIW Rage 128 32mb. No comments on that indicate that it should be good as is. Confirm? I do have MMC 7.2 but no one seems to like it?

Again, a LordSmurf question.

3. Can MyDVD to what Video Studio does?

I've never used Video Studio, but I have used MyDVD. I was very unhappy with it.

4. What does "capturing mpeg2 in 352x480 ntsc" mean in terms of quality vs. higher values? I assume that is resolution (horiz by vert).... don't I want at least 450x450 to maintain the quality that I know have?

No. VHS is between 220x480 and 240x480 depending on recording speed. Super VHS is closer to 400. Capturing at 352x480 is a higher resolution. I do this daily from a TiVo and a VCR. The results are fine.

Yes. DiSH PVRs capture DVB-II complaint streams. We had a fun argument about this a few weeks ago. My sources state that DiSH Network uses a lot of 480x480; LordSmurf and I compared notes and while there are other resolutions possibly in service now, 480x480 is likely the lowest you will encounter.

352x480 will still look very good with DiSH. 480x480 IS NOT a DVD-legal resolution, though SVCDs made from DiSH PVRs are generally outstanding. 704/720x480 may be an issue with your current setup.

5. If I use MyDVD will I still have to chose a Codec?

MyDVD is the authoring program. You have to make sure the file you bring into MyDVD is complaint with MyDVD. And be aware, MyDVD has, in the past, required that the audio be transcoded into PCM. This will increase your audio MP2 filesize by up to 5X it's original value.


Also be aware. MP2 audio is not a legal audio format for NTSC DVDs. However, because VideoCD requires MP2 streams, your chances are excellent that if your DVD player plays VideoCDs, it will play DVDs with MP2 audio.

[duhmez]

Too many times I see poeple recommend mpeg audio layer 2 for dvd authoring. Bad advice. Mpeg audio is not a supported audio format for an ntsc DVD, however it will most likely play anyways. As it is, already "most players" will lpay dvd-R/+R, but not all. Do you want to also toss in a "most players can play mpeg audio" into the mix?

Didn't think so.

Too bad MMC won't capture AC3 audio, I think it's a shame and BAD BAD ati for not supporting ac3 audio for capture, because they do a "dvd" setting in mmc.... but it's not _really_ ready for DVD.

What about commercials? Cutting out commercials in large mpeg files takes ALOT of time and is inprecise at best.

1 Ghz P3 should cap 352x480 mpegwithout any issus at all. 720x480, forget it.

I would (and do) use virtualdub with huffyuv codec(lossless) with 240 threshhold @ 352x480, and 48000 PCM audio. Yank out the wav after and make ac3 using besweet. Avisynth the video into tmpgenc or cce.

If you go huffyuv routem do yourself a favor and get xp/2k and convert to ntfs.



You need AC3 to truly be compliant audiowise (or pcm but you don't wanna use pcm=HuGE)

Another solution: Intervideo's "Windvr" can capture mpeg2 with ac3 audio all at once. Maybe cvheck them out. Youll get good compliant results and it will be the fastest way to get the job done, while mnaintaining much of the quality and least postprocessing. That is, until you want to remove commercials..... I've not found a way yet to cut>merge an mpeg file with ac3 in it yet I'm SURE it can be done, but I dont know yet. Looking into it.

[indolikaa]

Do you want to also toss in a "most players can play mpeg audio" into the mix?

Didn't think so.

I'm not going to argue that point. That's why I mentioned it.

[lbblock]

I got most of what has been said (though considerable flyover did occur). Thanks for your insights. A few more thoughts....

First of all, MMC 7.2 is the latest and greatest for my card acc to ATI. So, I guess that MMC is out.

1. Will this ATI AIW 128 32mb PCI card work well as an audio and video capture device? I also have a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound card (if that matters).

Since I don't need to edit commercials, MPEG-2 should be ok.
2. To confirm, isn't VirtualDub and the Huffyuv codec used for AVi files? If so, that is to be avoided until I upgrade to XP or 2k.

Audio-wise, things got a little mucky. In what format does the audio enter the computer? Since I am not sure what playing device my DVD's will end up in (youknow, family), I should go with a standard format like AC3. Don't know anything about VCD's. Sounds like Besweet will take care of any conversions that I will need.

How does frameserving fit into all this (a real newbie question)?

As far as the overall program to use, I am hoping to not buy any new ones (like TmpGenc or WinDVr) and I know that your programs tend to be for those that seriously want to produce the best possible results. However, I have more consumer oriented progs to choose from incl MyDVD 4.5; Ulead MSP 6VE, VS 6, DVD Movie Factory, DVD Picture Show' MGI VW 5, EZCD5 Platinum and Vegas 3. Any thoughts on these (I know that it is a lot to ask but I cannot find enough resources that compare them in this use.)

Whatever you share is greatly appreciated. Lar

[lbblock]

I have changed my mind.... something to be said for hindsight.

In the context of the consumer oriented progs I mentioned, if there are others that would make this process easier, more straightforward and have a greater likelihood of success with my particular system, I would be willing to buy it. My time and sanity are worth something (probably close to $3.85) but its a very subjective topic. Lar

[duhmez]

Windvr 3.

79$

http://www.intervideo.com/jsp/WinDVR_Profile.jsp

it will cap with great quality right to mpeg 2, with 48000 hz audio ac3 if you wish. Badaboom, capture, finshed. (The resulting mpeg file you can just throw into your dvd authoring program. If you wanna do it real cheap and one track per movie is fine, ifoedit can make a dvd from 1 mpv stream and 1 audio stream.
The turtle beach santa cruz, IIRC, is capable of 48000 hz audio. This is important, the audio is done by the video card and cheaper cards often cannot do 48000 audio. Should be good to go with the santa cruz.

I've found Windvr to be very stable and great quality captures. MMC inability to make ac3 audio really anoys me I must say, because it ccaptures great too using AIW card.
(I have an AIW 9700 pro)

Can MMC capture wav audio and mpeg 2 video? I'm not sure don't recall ever seeing the setting in there. If it will, youll want to capture that way (no $$ extra then) and then free besweet to transcode the wav to ac3. (You don't wanna go mp2 audio to ac3 if you can help it, but it is an option)

Worst case for no extra $$: Cap with mmc 352,480, mpegaudio @ 448 kilobits, then demultiplex and convert mpeg audio>ac3 using besweet. (it will work but it will hurt audio quality a little)

[indolikaa]

Can MMC capture wav audio and mpeg 2 video?

Yes! But to get the PCM audio, you have to go into your recording presets and select MPEG-2 DVD instead of MPEG-2 from the Video Stream Properties, Format drop-down selector. You will then have the option of selecting LPCM audio from the Audio Stream Properties, Audio Format drop-down selector in the same window.

[lbblock]

WinDVR sounds pretty good. I went to their website to learn more and I am concerned now. I was unable to find any way to contact them for support or questions (and my reputation for questions is now well documented, eh?). Questions about their required MS downloads, acceptable TV Tuners, limitations of Trialware.. the usual.

Actually, since I don't really plan on using the TV Tuner part, I was curious as to whether another of their products would have the same capture, burn and authoring aspects without the TV part.

Regarding MMC, haven't heard from lordsmurf on ATI issues. I'll check his site again for more info on this.

Regarding ifoedit, what do you mean by "one track per movie"? My intention is to capture at least 3 tv shows individually (depending on file sizes) and put them onto a DVD with a chapter menu.

Thx!

[lbblock]

Well, WinDVr sounds pretty good. I went to their website and was very disappointed with a lack of detailed info and no way to get support! Only a knowledge base. With a question-asker like me, worrisome, to be sure. I had questions about its stated requirements, about the limitations of its trialware and they have no tutorials. They strongly promote the PVR aspect which I am not interested in.

I checked out the infoedit site and doom9. Whoa! Loads of info. What did you mean by "If you wanna do it real cheap and one track per movie is fine, ifoedit can make a dvd from 1 mpv stream and 1 audio stream"?? I plan on capturing the 25 TV shows individually, putting (hopefully) at least 3 on a DVD-r with a simple chapter menu.

MMC 7.2. I'll look at lordsmurf's site later on. I did confirm that MMC 7.6 and below does not support 48Khz audio. With my large HDD I could capture in PCM and transcode to AC3 later, right? Since 7.2 is old, info on it may be slight. I am still concerned about the age of my AIW Rage 128 and how well it would do with this whole capturing thing. I could upgrade to an AIW 9000 Pro but have not been able to find out if that would be any better!! I resist the upgrade since I hope to eventually upgrade the mobo/cpu and OS, rendering the 9000 obsolete. Should I start another thread asking for thoughts on a comparison of the AIW Rage 128 vs the AIW Radeon 9000 Pro, or is that "asking for it"?

Thx!

[indolikaa]

The AIW 9000 Pro works great. I am a believer!

It's really simple and automates the DVD process nicely. And it's realtime capture, so you save some time.

The only issue is AC3, and I don't use much of that. I can use MP2, which as we have discussed before is technically out of spec (I just want to make sure I disclaim that!) but works on my players, but most of the time I like to use PCM.

I don't know how much better it would be versus an AIW 128 Pro. But it does good work, and MMC 8.1 is pretty stable. The key is the capture settings.

BTW: LordSmurf is on vacation and supposed to be ignoring requests for help. But he's around and still helping out, just taking his sweet time about it. :P

[turk690]

to Ibblock, first off use WinXP so your big HDD can be NTFS 2- and 4GB filesize limitations avoided. Does your camcorder have analogue inputs? Better yet, does it have analogue-to-digital pass through?? If it only has analogue inputs you go the slow hog and record your stuff onto miniDV first, then connect to the FireWire input and let MyDVD do the rest (capture, simple edit, encode, DVD-author). A weak link here is MyDVD (as far as I remember) allows only uncompressed PCM audio or MPEG layer-2 (the former will make your files big and your created DVD playing times shorter; the latter may or may not be accepted by certain set-tops when paired with NTSC (r your videos NTSC??)). I suggested capturing with your DV camcorder (if possible) to avoid different resolution and different codec hassles.

[lbblock]

Well, now there is a vote for the AIW 9000 Pro... funny, indolikaa, that you have one! Small world.

• 1. So, MMC does do MP2?
  2. Are MP2 and AC3 similar in terms of file sizes and quality? I know that MP2 is not a DVD "legal" file type.
  3. Will my Sony Playstation 2 play MP2?
  4. If MP2 works just about everywhere, then there is no issue!
  5. Is there any audio editing capability for MP2?
  6. Is MP2 the same as MPEG- layer2 audio?

Also regarding this earlier statement, "MyDVD has, in the past, required that the audio be transcoded into PCM. This will increase your audio MP2 filesize by up to 5X it's original value".... forget that!! How do I avoid that bloating?

The DV angle is interesting too. My Sony TRV-17 does what it calls Digital Conversion with analog in and DV out without having to tape it. I have read in DVDrHelp that when bringing in DV that MyDVD cannot turn off Device Control and unless it has a running tape source, that it will not capture it. So, the capture software must have defeatable Device Control in order to use a DV conversion source.

Does MMC have defeatable Device Control?

turk690 said "...MPEG layer-2 ...may or may not be accepted by certain set-tops when paired with NTSC (r your videos NTSC??)". Not sure but I think so since they were recorded on my PVR. After I capture and render, will they still be NTSC??

Thx again!!

[indolikaa]

Well, now there is a vote for the AIW 9000 Pro... funny, indolikaa, that you have one! Small world.

Three, actually. Two are mine, I'm 'borrowing' the third from a neighbor.

1. So, MMC does do MP2?

Yes, that's the default format.

2. Are MP2 and AC3 similar in terms of file sizes and quality? I know that MP2 is not a DVD "legal" file type.

If they are using the same encoding setting, size should be pretty close. As for quality, I've asked that question before.

I did a Star Wars LaserDisc transfer last weekend and used both MP2 and PCM. I still don't think I heard any difference, and I know AC3 is pretty good from previous experience.

3. Will my Sony Playstation 2 play MP2?

I have no idea. That's a good question.

4. If MP2 works just about everywhere, then there is no issue!

Well it can be in the NTSC world. It's not spec'd for DVD so manufacturers do not have to allow it to be granted the DVD Logo rights.

5. Is there any audio editing capability for MP2?

If you transcode to PCM and then reencode, yes. As for direct MP2 audio editing? Not that I'm aware of, but I've never tried it...

6. Is MP2 the same as MPEG- layer2 audio?

Yes. It's technically called MPEG-1 Layer-II audio.

Also regarding this earlier statement, "MyDVD has, in the past, required that the audio be transcoded into PCM. This will increase your audio MP2 filesize by up to 5X it's original value".... forget that!! How do I avoid that bloating?

Well, with the version of MyDVD that I 'inherited' with my DVD burners, it cannot accept MP2 or AC3, only PCM.

The DV angle is interesting too. My Sony TRV-17 does what it calls Digital Conversion with analog in and DV out without having to tape it. I have read in DVDrHelp that when bringing in DV that MyDVD cannot turn off Device Control and unless it has a running tape source, that it will not capture it. So, the capture software must have defeatable Device Control in order to use a DV conversion source.

I use a Sony DCR-TRV120 Digital8 to accomplish the same thing. Different hardware, but same result: DV passthru. I have never used anything other than WinDV for transferring DV material.

Does MMC have defeatable Device Control?

Not sure on that one.

turk690 said "...MPEG layer-2 ...may or may not be accepted by certain set-tops when paired with NTSC (r your videos NTSC??)". Not sure but I think so since they were recorded on my PVR. After I capture and render, will they still be NTSC??

If you live in North America, you are NTSC. When youcapture and author you may not even have any control of chaning to PAL.

Thx again!!

You're welcome!

[lbblock]

All right guys, time to regroup. Keeping FAT32 and 1GHz/P-III limitations in mind and correct where my head is up my......

FAT32 limits file size to 4Gb. MPEG-2 is highly compressed and each file should not exceed that limit. (47 minutes of video input). However, the compression will greatly tax the CPU and could cause problems. MMC will capture video in MPEG-2 or AVI. It will capture audio in MP2 or PCM (but not AC-3). PCM allows for editing but has huge filesizes.

AVI capture takes more space but is easier to work with. Virtual Dub (AVI only) can capture in multisegment mode and will seamlessly join these files post-capture for editing and rendering. AVI can then be converted to MPEG-2 with little or no loss (via BeSweet or other like MMC?) compared to a direct MPEG-2 capture . AVI will tax the CPU less. Simple cuts can be done in VD without rendering.

Analog to DV conversion via camcorder will provide a MPEG-2/PCM format. The quality of that conversion vs. MMC or others is unknown. DV conversion always provides 720x480 res and could tax the CPU. Other capture options allow for 352x480 (adequate for vhs/satellite input).

Can I have VD capture the input, edit and recombine, then have another prog like MMC or Ulead VS or Vegas do the rendering and authoring??

I feel like my 12 year old and math homework, hoping that I got most of the answers right. Knowledge enlightens the soul... but first it confuses the mind.

Thx!

[theDruid]

I'm no expert on making DVDs - I still only have a CD burner, and therefore do SVCDs instead.

However, it looks like you're getting confused between mp2 audio and MPEG-2 video. I say this because you're talking about converting to MPEG-2 with BeSweet.

BeSweet will convert your PCM audio to mp2 (which is not DVD standard, as has been said ad nauseam). It can also convert to AC3 (which is DVD standard).

However, if you want to convert avi video to MPEG-2, you'll need a video encoder (BeSweet is an audio encoder/transcoder).

MMC may well do this, but the best video encoders I know are Cinema Craft Encoder (CCE), and TMPGEnc Plus.

I'm not jumping the gun and saying buy one of those - see if MMC will do it first.

I'm just trying to clear up any confusion between the audio encoding and video encoding.

cheers,
mcdruid.

[lbblock]

Oops, thanks!

[lbblock]

Earlier indolikaa said:

"WinDV can work around this problem automatically with DV, but the only way you can concantenate the files is through VirtualDub frameserving"

What does this mean and what is frameserving?

Thanks

[theDruid]

concatenate means join together - it's a techie term used by programmers.

In that context, it means working around the segmented files you'd have to make if you were capturing a lot of data but had the file-size limitations imposed by FAT32. So, effectively joining the segmented files together.

There's a good guide on frameserving with VirtualDub.

Essentially, all it means is using one program to deliver an audio/video stream to another program.

So, you can use VirtualDub to open a video file and apply some filters etc.. to it. vDub can then deliver the filtered video stream to another program (usually an encoder such as TMPGEnc).

The stream is delivered frame-by-frame - hence the name.

This avoids having to make an intermediary file (i.e. processing the video in vDub and saving the result as a new file for later use). This saves disk space and time.

In this particular case, vDub would be able to join the segmented files together and deliver them to an encoder as if they were one big file - so that the encoder can treat them as one input source.

I hope that answers your questions!

cheers,
mcdruid.

[lbblock]

Hi mcdruid, thanks for the great explanation!

This FAT32 cap..... If I use VD or whatever to multi-segment caputure, at what point can they go back together? I was hoping for right after capture for editing but it may have to wait until the burn? Thanks again.

[lbblock]

Hi mcdruid, thanks for the great explanation!

This FAT32 cap..... If I use VD or whatever to multi-segment caputure, at what point can they go back together? I was hoping for right after capture for editing but it may have to wait until the burn? Thanks again.

[theDruid]

If you do a segmented capture, it would work something like this:

1) Capture to segmented avi files.
2) Load segmented files into VirtualDub.
3) Frameserve from VirtualDub into an encoder (e.g. TMPGEnc).
4) Encoder produces MPEG-2 stream.
5) Author.
6) Burn.

I don't know what your MMC can and cannot do - if it has an encoder built-in, you'll need to see if it can accept frameserving from VirtualDub.

Use a small avi file, and test it out.

Here's another link to the guide on frameserving with VirtualDub.

cheers,
mcdruid.