Capping DirecTV - is DV or analog better?

[mojo]

I've done a lot of searching of past posts, but I couldn't find anything that directly addressed this topic.

Last night I capped a show off DirecTV with an Pyro AV Link (their analog-DV box). I then encoded this to a DVD compliant file and was very unhappy with the results.

My first thought is that I am taking an already heavily compressed DirecTV signal, compressing it to DV and then compressing it again for DVD.

Is this the problem? Am I better off going through the headache of an analog capture card (like an ATI) and capping to uncompressed AVI and THEN going to DVD?

Will eliminating the step of DV compression make a big difference? I admit I love the ease, small size and lack of sync issues that capping with DV gives me. But if all my TV show DVDs are going to look like this, yikes! It may be worth the extra hassle of analog...

I've seen so many excellent posts of TV show SVCDs online... some of them look nearly DVD quality. I have to guess SOME of them are capping from satellites - how do they do it??

My specs:

AMD 2500XP
Windows XP
Gig/ram
Scenalyzer for capping
TMPGENC 2.58 for converting
S video input from DBS box

[indolikaa]

Check out this post. https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=193661

Bofore I was using my ATI AIWs, I was using a Digital8 camcorder to pass the DirecTV and DiSH Network signals through into the DV.avi format. The transfers were authored to VCD, CVD and DVD. The results are, in some cases, almost impossible to distinguish from the original broadcast.

DV and analog will provide excellent results. I won't dare begin to argue which is superior because my eyes are a poor judge, and some of that argument would be purely subjective.

The ATI can produce an excellent, realtime MPEG-2 product. Any number of DV.avi devices can produce excellent MPEG-2 product, albeit not in realtime.

Post some of the settings you are using and let's see what jumps out.

[andkiich]

Any time you compress a file multiple times, you run the risk of degrading the quality, so more than likely this might be some reason for your lack of quality.

MPEG2 settings and bitrate might be another.

Generally, you will only get as god a quality as the source, so if the source is questionable, then the results might be as well.

I capture stuff off my DirecTV TIVO all the time and they look identical on DVD as they did on TV.

My process for your comparison:

1) Analog capture to PC through ATI AIW 750 Radeon - uncompressed AVI
2) Use TMPGENc Plus to chop out commercials and encode to MPEG2. I use VBR and MP2 audio.
3) Use DVD-Lab to author
4) Use Nero 5.5 to burn DVD-Video

Nothing special and pretty straight forward

[mojo]

Well I did some experimenting tonight...

to test my sources, I capped a minute from a laser disc under the following conditions:

- Using the Pyro A/V Link & 25 foot cables (distance from my satellite receiver to my computer)
- Using the Dazzle DV Hollywood Bridge & 25 ft cables
- Using the Dazzle and 6 foot cables

All was with S-video.

The last cap gave me the best results.

The main thing I learned was that the Pyro A/V Link isn't as good as the Dazzle DV Bridge. This was surprising, since I determined a while back that the Bridge wasn't so great to begin with. I did this same test with the laser disc comparing the Dazzle's analog-DV transcoding with a DV Camera's analog passthrough (Sony VX-1000).

Using the DV camera as a transcoder gave me MUCH better results than the Dazzle. I thought the Dazzle was awesome until I compared it to the camera and saw how many artifacts the Dazzle was introducing.

I figured if a camera's transcoder was better than the Dazzle's, anything would work better.

So I finally went out and bought the Pyro A/V Link and just assumed it would kick the Dazzle's ass.

I was wrong.

Compared to the Dazzle, the Pyro is noticably softer and hotter. The white areas get blown out more easily, resulting in loss of detail in hot spots. The Dazzle was also at least 30% sharper - background detail that was a blur with the Pyro became discernable with the Dazzle. Look at these comparison stills:

http://members.aol.com/mojospfx/Compare.png

I encoded the tests as DVDs (TMPGENC default template) and looked at the results on a 27" TV. The Dazzle wins, hands down. And the Dazzle isn't really that good! I couldn't recommend the Pyro to anyone. Oh, and I also should mention the sound from the Pyro was AWFUL. It was distorted and sounded digitized (yes my dipswitches were set properly and it is the latest model).

Then I did another cap with the Dazzle using shorter cables to see if my signal was degrading too much with 25" lengths. The shorter cable capture did produce better results, but I'd say it was maybe 5-10% better, tops. Still a noticable improvement and anyone out there using long cables should take note. However this is not the culprit in my 'awful' cap of DirecTV.

So, the bottom line is before I can really decide if DV capturing introduces too much compression to the DirecTV signal, I need a better DV capture device. I know there is another standalone box out there (ACDV 100 or something like that) and, of course, I am going to borrow my friend's VX-1000 again and see how that transcodes the DirecTV signal.

[lordsmurf]

Those images both look terrible. You may want to consider a better VCR, probably a JVC SVHS with playback filters. That kind of end-product is suffering from chroma/luma leaks and associated noise.

Will harm your bitrate usage too in MPEG.

[indolikaa]

I wouldn't be surprised if using a 25-foot cable might have something to do with it. Especially S-Video being that long, that's about 19 feet longer than what I would recommend.

[trevlac]

Those images both look terrible. You may want to consider a better VCR, probably a JVC SVHS with playback filters. That kind of end-product is suffering from chroma/luma leaks and associated noise.

Will harm your bitrate usage too in MPEG.

Didn't he say it was s-video from LD? Still looks bad to me.
Does it look like that from DirectTV too?

Also, why doesn't everyone just move the digital receiver next to the pc? 24" not 24' ?

[TBoneit]

I've done a lot of searching of past posts, but I couldn't find anything that directly addressed this topic.

Last night I capped a show off DirecTV with an Pyro AV Link (their analog-DV box). I then encoded this to a DVD compliant file and was very unhappy with the results.

My first thought is that I am taking an already heavily compressed DirecTV signal, compressing it to DV and then compressing it again for DVD.

Is this the problem? Am I better off going through the headache of an analog capture card (like an ATI) and capping to uncompressed AVI and THEN going to DVD?

Will eliminating the step of DV compression make a big difference? I admit I love the ease, small size and lack of sync issues that capping with DV gives me. But if all my TV show DVDs are going to look like this, yikes! It may be worth the extra hassle of analog...

I've seen so many excellent posts of TV show SVCDs online... some of them look nearly DVD quality. I have to guess SOME of them are capping from satellites - how do they do it??

My specs:

AMD 2500XP
Windows XP
Gig/ram
Scenalyzer for capping
TMPGENC 2.58 for converting
S video input from DBS box

.
You said the small Size tha DV gives? DV captures as AVI @ 13Gigabyte per hour, I woldn't call that small.

I suspect that you are compressing when capturing.
When I capture from Sat TV as Dv it is 13 Gb a hour of video and then 2 pass encoding it to 352 by 480 resolution looks pretty good. Sat Tv isn't running resolutions of 720 by 480 anyway. Depends on the source of course. Premium channels and PPV look better than locals and things like Game Show Network.

Good Luck, you should be able to get nearly the same qulaity in captures as direct viewing. Also shorten Video cable length and use a good IRd as they different levels of video quality output. Older/cheaper may not look as good as better IRDs. Move the IRD to the computer and extend the feedd from the dish instead. Consider Getting a DirecTivo as it will store the video unchanged for later capturing.

Cheers

[Bodysurf]

I've done a lot of searching of past posts, but I couldn't find anything that directly addressed this topic.

Last night I capped a show off DirecTV with an Pyro AV Link (their analog-DV box). I then encoded this to a DVD compliant file and was very unhappy with the results.

My first thought is that I am taking an already heavily compressed DirecTV signal, compressing it to DV and then compressing it again for DVD.

You are, so there will be some quality loss. I find the quality loss to be minimal. A lot of it depends on the broadcast's source material's bitrate -- some channels/shows are heavily compressed, others not so much.

Is this the problem? Am I better off going through the headache of an analog capture card (like an ATI) and capping to uncompressed AVI and THEN going to DVD?

From looking at your captures above, it appears that isn't the problem. Both of your still shots look like garbage.

I know LS may disagree with me, but the only way I've found analog capture cards to be superior to my Canopus ADVC-100 captures, is with cards like a Canopus DVStorm2 or a Matrox RT.X100 + HuffYUV or high bitrate MJPEG AVI. Cards like the ATI AIWs, Hauppage WinTV produce IMHO inferior results in my experience.

Will eliminating the step of DV compression make a big difference? I admit I love the ease, small size and lack of sync issues that capping with DV gives me. But if all my TV show DVDs are going to look like this, yikes! It may be worth the extra hassle of analog...

No. I wonder whether the culprit is your Pyro A/V link. I use a Canopus ADVC-100 to capture DirecTiVo shows via S-Video and RCA audio jacks and get much better results than you.

I've seen so many excellent posts of TV show SVCDs online... some of them look nearly DVD quality. I have to guess SOME of them are capping from satellites - how do they do it??

LS does well with his ATI AIW card and other people are using high-quality A/D converters such as the DataVideo DAC-100, Canopus ADVC-100 or the discontinued Sony one.

I capture via my Canopus ADVC-100 and Sony's Vegas v4.0, then use the included MainConcept MPEG-encoder and Dolby Digital (AC-3) audio encoder to render to DVD-Video, SVCD or VCD depending on its audience and purpose. They all come out fine, considering the limitations of the destination's format.


I've never been a big fan of the Pyro products. Lots of problems reported with them.

[yamato72]

Might I suggest upgrading to a DirecTV with Tivo? I picked one up for $99 several months ago and "hacked" it. If you are handy with PC hardware, it involves pulling the hard drive and doing some Linux tricks. You then set up software on the tivo to allow direct streaming to your PC and the FTPing of the shows.

The DirecTivo records the DirecTV stream with no reencoding, and there are several tools available to prep the video for further processing.

Caveats: 1) It voids your Tivo warranty 2) There are DMCA implications

You may want to check out the Hacking forum on
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/
and the Extraction forum on
http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/

On a daily basis I record "We Are The 80's" on VH1 on the Tivo, then extract the program (about 5-10 minutes for an hour-long show), then cut out the few videos I want.

For Christmas, I recorded all of the holiday programs on ABC Family on the Tivo for my kids, cut out the commercials, imported the assets into DVDlab, compliled the project, and had DVD2SVCD make a VCD out of it. It takes about 10 minutes to set up and 1-2 hours for encoding.[/url]

There is a large number of people doing this, but you have to be comfortable with the hacking process. The DirecTV stream is 480X480 mpeg-2 so you can put it on SVCD easily. For DVD, most people are able to patch the header to make a non-compliant DVD that will still play in most set-top players.

[mojo]

Thanks for all the replies, guys!

Yes, I know the quality of the caps is poor - that's the source material. The old laser disc of Star Wars is full of noise, grain and a lot of aliasing.

However, the best quality uncompressed source I could muster was this laserdisc, and besides - seeing how a device handles a poor quality source is far more telling than what it does with a perfect source.

No matter how you slice it, the Pyro looked bad so I'm returning it.

Oh, and by the way, I'm not recompressing the DV - I said DV has a small file size in comparison to analog capture! I'll take 12 gigs and hour over 40 any day

I did a test capping DirecTV with the Dazzle and encoded that with TMPGENC - the results were better, and the resulting noise and artifacts were most likely the fault of the Dazzle (I've grown to know what Dazzle noise looks like

Now the question becomes what to do next. I looked at the thread comparing the ADVC to an analog capture card and I have to admit, the analog card beat it out. It seems like nearly all DV capture devices have problems with high contrast and saturated colors.

But convenience does enter into it, and the thought of dealing with sync issues is not an appealing one. Is there ANY analog cap card that makes audio easier?

I went to Fry's last night and saw a TON of new USB2 capture boxes that encode straight to MPEG. Will ANY of them rival a good analog cap with TMPEGENC processing?

Are there any good external analog cap boxes?

And as far as the wire length goes, I'm kind of stuck with the layout of my home. Am I better off using short video cables and run a long firewire or USB cable to the computer?