ADVC-100 vs ATI Radeon - Screenshots

[racerxnet]

Hi Will,

The seperastion of the Y/C signal within the VCR will be handled by the chipset within the VCR player. It appears you need the correct 21 pin Scart connector. The scart connector must be able to seperate the Y/C signal properly before input to the VCR/TV or whatever is using the signal. That is why you are getting a B/W picture. I could be wrong, but how much does another scart connector cost? Buy another, if the thing does not work, take it back for a refund.

[BARCH]

The seperastion of the Y/C signal within the VCR will be handled by the chipset within the VCR player. It appears you need the correct 21 pin Scart connector. The scart connector must be able to seperate the Y/C signal properly before input to the VCR/TV or whatever is using the signal. That is why you are getting a B/W picture. I could be wrong, but how much does another scart connector cost? Buy another, if the thing does not work, take it back for a refund.

If the vcr does not support svhs then u will definitely get a b/w picture as the signal from the vcr is composite and not y/c. I've already tried this and my scart cable is compatible with a y/c signal.

[Will Hay]

Hi Will,

The seperastion of the Y/C signal within the VCR will be handled by the chipset within the VCR player. It appears you need the correct 21 pin Scart connector. The scart connector must be able to seperate the Y/C signal properly before input to the VCR/TV or whatever is using the signal. That is why you are getting a B/W picture. I could be wrong, but how much does another scart connector cost? Buy another, if the thing does not work, take it back for a refund.

My current VCR doesn't have an s-video capability.
Upon looking for a second VCR on the web today I noticed none had what I would call a 'conventional' s-video output.
Therefore, buying a 21 pin scart scart for my curremt VCR is pointless, no?
I don't want to go to the expense of buying both an s-video VCR and a 21 pin scart for them not to work.
How can you be sure that my TV (from where I tried the s-video/composite adapter will have s-video capabilities?
Will

[FulciLives]

That's easy on a still picture. How would you do that to vodeo - TMPGEnc?

I use Vegas 4.0 - it'll filter as many frames as you want at once.

I think what Rookie64 is trying to say is that TMPGEnc is SLOW as it is and can be even SLOWER when you use any kind of filtering including the CUSTOM COLOR filter.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

OK, managed to post them all. Any thoughts?

Looking at your first batch of pics ... the DAC-100 vs the DCRPC1 ... they look VERY similiar. The DAC-100 pics look ever-so-slightly darker ... the RED in the STOP SIGN looks ever-so-slightly more saturated ... but otherwise they look nearly identical. The only picture that really shows the difference in darkness/brightness is the ON THE RUN picture. If you look to the LEFT of that building (whatever it is) you see less detail in the DAC-100 picture since it is darker than the DCRPC1 picture.

As for the second set of pics you posted about the DAC-100 vs the INSTANT DVD device ...

The INSTANT DVD pics look better to me. Yes they perhaps lack some of the fine detail in the DAC-100 pics but the DAC-100 pics also have a lot of "video noise" in them. My guess is you can achieve the same look with the DAC-100 if you apply some noise filtering like perhaps a temporal smoother or my favorite Convolution3D. In fact I'm not even sure the DAC-100 has more detail ... I think it just has too much "video noise" which is just making it seem to appear to have more detail (i.e., akin to pumping up the SHARPNESS on a TV which just adds "video noise" achieving the same "more detailed" look).

Having said that I've heard that the INSTANT DVD device has a lot of issues including audio sync problems. What are your experiences with that?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

EMPIRE and JEDI don't seem to have this problem on LD which is why I asked Will to do EMPIRE since he said he had the set but oh well he did STAR WARS instead.

You want me to come around and do your dishes too?
I'm not really your bitch, you 65 year old shit-head!
Sorry man, I was in a rush and didn't have time to kind the specific scene you uploaded.
When (and if) I get this new s-video VHS player I'll do some scenes and you can match them.
Do you want me to save the pictures at a specific size?
Some (ungrateful bastard) poster mentioned I saved them the wrong size...
...all I do is hit the screenshot button in PowerDVD and then paste into PSP8 (and then reduce by circa. 50% to fit within the 50kb limit set by Baldrick/dvdrhelp.com.
Will

Well Will I am only 31 thank you so much! :P
And no of course you aren't my Bitch

Actually at this point I don't see much point in us comparing pics of STAR WARS because our source material is too different. If we both had the exact same source then yeah it would be interesting but otherwise it really isn't. I admit to getting overly excited and wanting to post pics hehehe

I think now the most important thing is for you to find a VCR that has a REAL composite and/or S-video output and for you to test that kind of import from a high quality source (original pre-record as well as cable or satiette TV pass thru).

And that brings me to your quest ... I find it "odd" that you cannot find a VCR that has anything but SCART connectors but then again I live in the USA so what do I know?

However I have a multi-system PAL/NTSC/SECAM VHS VCR and most models I see on-line have the "normal" composite video and S-Video (when they are S-VHS models). I think (don't feel like ripping my equipment apart) that my multi-system VHS VCR also has SCART connecters but I do know it has two sets of inputs and outputs that are composite video.

Is it normal then for PAL only VHS VCR units sold in Europe to ONLY have SCART connectors? Your search seems to indicate that!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

One last thought for now ...

Will ... if you do get another VHS VCR that has either a "normal" composite and/or S-Video output I think you should recapture STAR WARS and make new pics to compare to your first batch of STAR WARS pics so we can see what difference ... if any ... the new VCR with direct composite/S-Video might have compared to your current SCART only VHS VCR.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[racerxnet]

Hi Will,

The L-1 output from the JVC VCR regarding the Y/C seperation is handled from within the vcr. Evidently the scart connector is suppose to seperate the signal before being input into the VCR. Whether you use a 4pin Svideo cable, or 4 pins from the scart connector does not matter, as long as the pinout is correct.

I gathered the L-1 image is from the JVC European spec sheet. As far as your TV having Y/C seperation is another matter. You need to look up the specs for this application regarding your TV. Sorry I can not help much more from the USA.

[Will Hay]

One last thought for now ...

Will ... if you do get another VHS VCR that has either a "normal" composite and/or S-Video output I think you should recapture STAR WARS and make new pics to compare to your first batch of STAR WARS pics so we can see what difference ... if any ... the new VCR with direct composite/S-Video might have compared to your current SCART only VHS VCR.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Hi Fulcri.
I captured Star Wars ESB today and honestly, it looks utter, utter shite.
Admitedly I did use my usual setup (ie. from downstairs) but like I said earlier when I hooked up the VCR directly (and remember, it doesn't have a conventional composite output so is effectively the same as my 'usual' setup) it wasn't much different.
Don't really know where to go now except try find another VCR and I don't really want to go that extra expense now.
And plus, and this bit is important, for me anyway

Take a look at the following message posted earlier today:

My JVC (HR-S5965) svhs vcr also only has scart output. I've just tried capturing vhs-pal using very good quality scart to svideo cable and I still get the red saturation as I did with scart to composite. I don't think it is the cables or the video, it has to be the the advc-100 box. If only there is a fix!

I don't know if you noticed my post but this is the next model up from mine and in the event I don't find a UK player that I can test before buying then I'm f*cked.
Really f*cked.
Well, at least as far as the ADVC goes.
I only want it for VHS and Live TV (yes it's great for MiniDV and DVD from my standalone - but why would I want to do that?).
Not sure what to do but I'm leaning towards it going on ebay and going back to the ATI.
I'm going to hook up the VCR directly to the ADVC (now) and record SW ESB again.
I'll post the resulst tomorrow maybe and perhaps I'll even post the results when compared to my signalI pick up from downstairs; I suppose that will tell us if I have my signal all wrong.

Oh, and I was watching my version of SW ESB and the quality looks shite, you're right, it wouldn't be a fair comparison, not by a long way.
Will


Shit, reghadus, top gear has started, gotta go

[trevlac]

@Proxy

Great posts. Really lets people know what to expect. I think you got it right on what is happening. I have a Aver(BT878) card that has less detail than my MSI(CX) card, but is gets rid of the noise. Big plus for analog.

Basically, the DAC looks worse because the ADS applies a filter to remove the detail. So if there is noise, the ADS looks better.

Here is the chip in the ads SAA7115.

@Fulci

Actually I don't like your latest pics. It's because I don't like VHS quality probably. Thank god I never try good beer. I can still drink the cheap stuff.

Here is what I want for detail. This is a digital zoom of one of my tykes. Just zoomed with Photoshop, no processing, quality 30 jpeg for baldrick. It's from my wife's still camera, but what I want from my video.



Here is a shot from my Sony miniDV. I like the detail. This was encoded to dvd with mainconcepts probably 6000 cbr. I took the shot out of the dvd with vdub and removed 1/2 the lines. Still has good resolution? Then we killed it more with adobe as a q30 jpeg.




Here is a full shot of the whole scene. Incase you thought the colors were off. The machine is just faded. This guy is a Q5 jpeg from adobe. I don't think the red shirt bleeds as much in the real thing.



BTW: None of these pics have been filtered or processed in anyway (except shrunk or compressed). I think It pays to use the best possible source.

[Will Hay]

Hi Will,

The L-1 output from the JVC VCR regarding the Y/C seperation is handled from within the vcr. Evidently the scart connector is suppose to seperate the signal before being input into the VCR. Whether you use a 4pin Svideo cable, or 4 pins from the scart connector does not matter, as long as the pinout is correct.

I gathered the L-1 image is from the JVC European spec sheet. As far as your TV having Y/C seperation is another matter. You need to look up the specs for this application regarding your TV. Sorry I can not help much more from the USA.

Okay racer, thanks.
But we've had a member (presumably UK based) use the exact same VCR I was planning and apparently he's used good quality scart leads = he gets colour bleed like mine
If he (BARCH) has used 21 pin scart to composite lead then I supose there's the answer, I'd be no better off.
Will
Will

[Will Hay]

......I think It pays to use the best possible source.

Before I start =

Yes, it does pay to use the correct source but that was never the intent of the thread.
Yes, okay, I'm glad people thinking about the ADVC are happy with the (proper) screenshots I've taken (DVD and MiniDV).
I'm capturing live TV AND VHS, I suppose the comparisons with regadus and the Top Gear program will prove my setup is to blame; providing he doesn't piss around and make the pictures better

Saying that, I can't see how regadus' input can be any different to mine, how do you get your TV signal into your TV Rob?
Will

[FulciLives]

@Fulci

Actually I don't like your latest pics. It's because I don't like VHS quality probably. Thank god I never try good beer. I can still drink the cheap stuff.

Actually trevlac if you re-read what I wrote about my STAR WARS EPISODE 4 pics they were captured DIRECT from a LaserDisc player ... not from VHS.

The STAR WARS LD just has a shite transfer as Will would say

As for the pics you posted from your DV cam I have to say the detail looks really good!

So maybe the whole DV AVI 4:1:1 thing ain't such a big deal afterall?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Will Hay]

These shots were taken via the ADVC-100 from my TV signal (the one which is outputted via my TV from the scart/composite adapter.
Regadus is going to post some exact matches from the same scenes, he also has an ADVC.

Please bear in mind my signal wasn't too great, BBC2 has a little ghosting on my upstairs TV but you can see the problems I'm having with the red saturation.

This isn't the case when the same signal is run through the ADVC, using the same leads and scart/composite adapter.
Will
















Like I say, regedus might have a far superior signal but you'll see my problem with the reds

[Will Hay]

I've just deleted the entire 'capture' of Star Wars ESB, it was utter, utter shite.
It would seem, judging from the pictures below (which aren't as bad as I expected) that my main problem is VHS.
I tried a video of 'friends' and that was pretty dark too, and red.
Will

[Will Hay]

I must confess that whilst the cars look really red they aren't as bad as I first thought.
I tried a little experiment in lightening an avi in Pinnacle Studio and okay, its another process in saving to avi an dthen using TMPGEnc but hell, I might just keep this little black box
Will

[FulciLives]

I must confess that whilst the cars look really red they aren't as bad as I first thought.
I tried a little experiment in lightening an avi in Pinnacle Studio and okay, its another process in saving to avi an dthen using TMPGEnc but hell, I might just keep this little black box
Will

These new images you posted from BBC2 or whatever look rather good to me. Yes the color saturation is a bit high but overall I think they look really nice.

If I were you I would just attempt to adjust the saturation level when doing the MPEG-2 encoding step. You have a multitude of options as to how to do that too. You could use Pinnacle Studio since I guess that is what you use to capture. You could load the DV AVI into VirtualDub and do it there then frameserve. You can do it with an AviSynth AVS script. You could do it with the simple or custom color controls in TMPGEnc.

I mean the images look very nice as far as detail and sharpness. We know the Canopus ADVD-100 also does things just a wee bit tad darker although it really is not evident in these pics but only perhaps because none of them are very dark to begin with.

So again try to play around with adjusting the color saturation and maybe the brightness and/or contrast. My guess is that once you find settings that are good for one capture they should be ABOUT the same for all captures.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

I've just deleted the entire 'capture' of Star Wars ESB, it was utter, utter shite.
It would seem, judging from the pictures below (which aren't as bad as I expected) that my main problem is VHS.
I tried a video of 'friends' and that was pretty dark too, and red.
Will

Based on your experiences so far it sounds like maybe you need a PAL or multi-system VHS VCR that has a real composite video output. I don't think having a S-VHS with S-Video output is really all that crucial unless you plan to use it for recording TV shows etc. in S-VHS otherwise I don't much see the point.

Surely you can find a new VHS VCR that has composite outputs and not that SCART "crap"

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[rhegedus]

OK - here are the 50k pics snapped using PowerDVD and imported into PaintShopPro and compressed to jpeg.

[trevlac]

@Will

You gotta figure out what Rob is doing. I think (if they exist) you should use a s-vhs dec as your tuner, and go s-video to your ADVC. Below is an example using s-video to my miniDV.

@Fulci

Sorry, my mistake on the VHS thing. I've only seen very few LD movies. Had some friend a while back with a player. However, I think s-video may be a better option. I went to BlockBuster with my kid and he grabbed a really lame scooby-doo, and I picked up Star Wars.

I capped these shots with my Sony (since we are talking DV devices here). I played the "old beat up rental" tape on my fairly cheap SVHS dec (HRS3911U) thru s-video.

The shots were not processed a bit. I just cut the line height in VDub, did a screen copy, and pasted in Photoshop. Then I saved them a 10k Jpegs (what's with the 50k thing around here? doesn't someone pay for this space?)

@Rookie
Still think Will's pics are OK? Better to start than to have to soften. Maybe. My eyes are starting to hurt.





Sorry about the Leia picture. I couldn't find the right frame and I gave up. I think the others are close. I commend John on being able to find the frame.

[FulciLives]

Concernig the pics that Will and rhegedus posted ...

Poor Will

You got a shite ass signal going there Will.

Hope you can improve it ... maybe with a better SCART converter thingie. Would be interested how your setup differs from rhegedus.

The pictures are light and day difference.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[BARCH]

Strange.
Rhegedus what set up do u have? Although I only capture from vhs and was not able to capture the same program to compare but I have to say that my colours are just as bad as Will's.
Could u lend us that magic wand please!

[proxyx99]

Excellent, zero bleeding/ghosting, natural looking, proper saturation and color balance. Details in red are easily distinguishable (red car hood). This is what you want. What more can I say.
As expected the brightness is a bit on low side, just like DAC. So is the slightly increased contrast (that I don't like, but DAC has the same issue, never tried IRE 0 though).

By looking at Will's pics versus last posted one conclusion can be drawn. There has to be an issue with Will's source signal. The unwordly difference between both samples is of such nature that the only conclusion could be: we are dealing with a faulty device (ADVC), less likely to me, or source/video path issues (!). I've stated in my earlier posts that bleeding, oversaturation is typical to a degraded signal quality. Bad aerial TV signal produces that as well as video noise introduced by duplication (2nd, 3rd ... VHS copy) where after several steps all detail is lost but what remains is distorted and wild chroma. We know that. Troubleshooting with video path issues makes simply no sense. Will's pics carry all typical signs of signal path issues therefere posting more pics is useless. Last 2 posts completely suffice (Top Gear captures). No wonder that ATI is better in this environment as it cleans up the picture with it's default settings (acts like a filter). ADVC can't do that so it processes all th crap it gets.
Will, your first impression about my second DAC posting was "...what have you done...". By using samples from a noisy tape I was showing how DAC handles that. It is to be expected that dumb devices like DAC and ADVC will make the noise unbearable to human eye. Color amplification doesn't care whether this particular pixel is part of a picture because of a noise or it belongs to signal's original color stucture. That's why in noisy environment they produce noisy outcone. It may come as a surprise to all of you but some say "crap in, twice as much out"! (sorry, my paraphrase ;-D). How true in this case. I can't believe that we went through this much pain to and ended up where we are.
Will, you got us all. Just look at the at the last pic od yours and Rhegedus'es. Forget color, contrast etc. The ghosts on the left of your picture are staggering. How can you watch TV with that...? My house is wired on 3 levels with 4 TV units (5th coming) and nowhere you can see whats on you pic. I can't believe I missed it. Anyway, it has been a great discussion and I'm going to add few pics from ADS for Fulci (still, not convinced) and anyone interested (this time from DVD).
Beyond that, I have to say that your unit has a tendency to add (amplify) red (maybe exaggerated by cables again, we don't know what the path was, lenght of cales etc.). Call Canopus and arrange for an exchange. You can always request another unit from their tech supp (like I did with ADS) to run comparative tests.

@Fulci,
as I stated in some other thread answering your question, I never had an issue with ADS (I just hate MPEG2 editing and sync issues that arise from that). If I was to listen to everyone who had trouble with whatever else, I should probably never leave my house. You got to know more about poster to understand and judge quality of posting accordingly, you know that. ADS is solid. Some guys PC's are not, that's all. Plus add usual lack of expertise, reluctance to properly (!) troubleshoot and ease with which they find someone (else) to blame.

[FulciLives]

@Will

You gotta figure out what Rob is doing. I think (if they exist) you should use a s-vhs dec as your tuner, and go s-video to your ADVC.

I agree. One hopes that it is just Will's SCART converter thing or his method (didn't he say he was using his TV out function? ... odd since NTSC USA TVs don't have a TV out function).

@Fulci

Sorry, my mistake on the VHS thing. I've only seen very few LD movies. Had some friend a while back with a player. However, I think s-video may be a better option. I went to BlockBuster with my kid and he grabbed a really lame scooby-doo, and I picked up Star Wars.

I capped these shots with my Sony (since we are talking DV devices here). I played the "old beat up rental" tape on my fairly cheap SVHS dec (HRS3911U) thru s-video.

The shots were not processed a bit. I just cut the line height in VDub, did a screen copy, and pasted in Photoshop. Then I saved them a 10k Jpegs (what's with the 50k thing around here? doesn't someone pay for this space?)

Well I think the differences between my pics and your pics boil down to the transfer. Obviously not the same. Like I said the STAR WARS LD has a piss poor overly bright and overly soft image with inaccurate pinish colored skin tones. Plus I sometimes think that maybe my capture card at the default settings captures ever-so-slightly lighter than the source but I do feel that it is by such a small amount as to not really make a big difference. Again I fault the STAR WARS LD transfers overt brightness.

As for the S-Video out ... the LD player I have doesn't have it ... in fact many LD players didn't have S-Video out and even the one's that did aren't that good compared to the comb filters you find in modern TV nor as good as those used by Panasonic on their stand alone DVD recorders. Not sure how an LD era S-Video comb filter compares with that in the AverTV Stereo but since the LD player I have only has composite out ... well who cares! Not much I can do about it besides trying to get an LD player with S-Video out and I ain't doing that.

Sorry about the Leia picture. I couldn't find the right frame and I gave up. I think the others are close. I commend John on being able to find the frame.

Who's your daddy

As for the pics being 50k limit you do realize that it is 50k per image not per post as you can have multiple 50k images per a single post.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
Again my STAR WARS LD is the THX WS THEATRICAL CUT version. I wonder if the VHS you rented trevlac was the THEARICAL CUT or the SPECIAL EDITION as I know the transfer on LD is different between the two (or so I've heard since I only ever saw the SPECIAL EDITIONS in the theatres).

[trevlac]

@Fulci

On the 50k limit. I know you can post big pics. I ment why is everybody eating Baldricks space. I don't see much difference in smaller jpegs. kinda

I think the tape is not the special "STAR WARS (1977) CBS FOX Video (red logo) /1130/Hi-Fi STEREO/Digitally Mastered/1990/124 min/Color" This is the best description i can find. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6301773551/qid=1071456648/sr=1-5/ref=sr_...roduct-details

I'm not sure there is much difference between the LD and the caps I made. I mean if you adjusted the Aver driver. Also, I don't know if s-video carries more bandwidth than rca from a LD player. What this tells me is keep the Aver unless you want easy.... except these dv devices do not auto tune a channel (say when you are at work or maybe if you ever sleep).

@proxy

You have a good write-up. But do you think it is his signal in, or his connectors. I lean toward the connectors. I don't think it looks as bad on his TV. This is a big guess of course. I think racerxnet said a bit back "go get a new connector to test, bring it back if it does not work."

@Will

You are going to make this stuff work and then you'll never be able to watch shitty video again. (except maybe a bunch of rental kid vids)

[proxyx99]

Trevlac. thanks. I think we understand each other so well, simply because we are on the same wave length. To put it mildly we don't like BS.
Troubleshooting is not about compromising. It is a total devotion to the resolution. We take no prisoners.
To clear up the signal at my place I had to open every box and inspect every cable. Those subpar were replaced with highest quality splicers and coax available. I have signal amp as well for upstairs (4 TV's altogether) but again, top quality. My place is ghost free. Period. Same applies to everything else.
By saying that it's a signal issue I mean signal path whatever may be involved. I came from Europe and knowing how good cable and antenna signals there are (on average) I have no doubt that a phonecall to my local cable company would be my last choice. It is still possible that the cable drop/local SMT may be crap but I would start with my own backyard first.

Now to ADS. I dropped it for it's insufficient sharpness (these captures were done using 4Mbps CBR with Macroviosion defeater that was not needed after all (that softened the picture even further). I liked everything like color handling, adjustment flexibility, ease of use and good picture for a max 5Mbps CBR.
I couldn't take it's inability to define edges plus MPEG2 capture (softening). That's all.
Remark: overall motion picture viewing experience is quite good though

[proxyx99]

Strange.
Rhegedus what set up do u have? ...
....Could u lend us that magic wand please!

BARCH, we all have this "magic wand". It's called LOGICAL THINKING AND ANALYSYS.

With a collective effort we were able to draw some conclusions that were not difficult at all. Assumption is the worst enemy of good analysys (and a no no in troubleshooting). That was Will's first and biggest sin. Other then that I have to commend him for sparkling a good discussion and keeping us busy. I've had hell of a time...

[lordsmurf]

@proxyx99

I'm not sure if it's the lighting, but those guitar guy images seem to be pretty heavy on the magenta ... at least on my monitor (which IS color-calibrated for both photo output and video output).

It makes all the blues dip into hues of purple.

[rhegedus]

No magic wand, I'm affraid.

Scart converter (just like the IN/OUT) model posted by Will into my cable box and then connected with gold plated composite video/audio-L/audio-R cables to the Canopus. This is then connected to my PC by a 10m firewire cable.



If I want to capture VCR, I just plug the scart converter to the VCR (heads cleaned before every capture).

Simple.

[proxyx99]

Lordsmurf, maybe you need to recalibrate. 8) No magenta here nor on the orig. DVD. Pic looks like the DVD on a TV screen, unfortunately still uncalibrated (trust me on that).

If I want to capture VCR, I just plug the scart converter to the VCR (heads cleaned before every capture).

You're kidding. Is there anything still left of your head... or you in head supply business...