ADVC-100 vs ATI Radeon - Screenshots

[Will Hay]

I just mentioned that you could adjust the saturation etc. when doing your MPEG-2 encoding step but although that should help to an extent it is apparent that the "errors" are being introduced to the signal as it is being processed internaly by the ADVC-100

Yeah, I know man, I've done this so far, it's fine but I haven't had muh time to waste on burning my tests to DVDr to view where it matters most, my standalone.

So now I'm thinking that what LordSmurf said might be the best solution for the Canopus ADVC-100

I'm talking about his suggestion to try an external processing box (such as the SIMA unit) which can adjust individual color saturation and contrast/brightness etc. Put this between the source and the ADVC-100 and increase the brightness ... lower the contrast ... lower the REDS and GREENS if possible etc.

Now when the ADVC-100 does the conversion it will "fix" the errors you just introduced with the SIMA (or similiar device) by doing what it does ... increasing saturation and contract and lowering the brightness.

Hang on, so are you saying that the ADVC will "...fix the errors you just introduced with the SIMA (or similiar device) by doing what it does".
Do you mean it will not work?
Or do you mean that by lifting the saturation and brightness, once the ADVC lowers them they will be higher than if the external processing box wasn't there and therefore be set at an accetable level?
Sounds sensible, still more money though for the perfect machine
Will

[Will Hay]

I aso need to ascertain how to force the file to use a specific codec during playback, don't I?
Rather niavely I've been thinking the playback is crucial only when I capture the footage initially.
It's crucial during playback, right?
But, if I've run the file through TMPGEnc and the resulatnt mpeg is saturated and dark (-er than the file produced by the ATI card) it can't be the codec that's at fault, can it?
It must be something happening with the canopus codec within the unit, surely?
Will

[FulciLives]

Hey John,

.....I have read that the Canopus DV codec is known to have "issues" including color saturation problems........Now since the ADVC-100 does the conversion to DV in hardware (in the external device) it uses the Canopus DV codec. So the error is probably being introduced there......But the "errors" are probably due to the "source" i.e., the codec used by the Canopus ADVC-100 internally.

Would it be a fair test then to run some MiniDv footage through the ADVC and ATI (with composite, not firewire so as to give a fair comparison)?
That way there would be no risk of the signal being corrupted, the footage would be as good as it can be, right?

Actually you know what might be even a better test? Take a DV or Digital8 cam and capture it to the HDD through FIREWIRE without using the Canopus ADVC-100 then do an analog capture of the same footage using the ADVC-100

Would be interesting to see what difference if any there would be.

I wouldn't be surprised if the DIRECT firewire method looks different than analog to ADVC-100 to FIREWIRE method.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Will Hay]

Hey John,

.....I have read that the Canopus DV codec is known to have "issues" including color saturation problems........Now since the ADVC-100 does the conversion to DV in hardware (in the external device) it uses the Canopus DV codec. So the error is probably being introduced there......But the "errors" are probably due to the "source" i.e., the codec used by the Canopus ADVC-100 internally.

Would it be a fair test then to run some MiniDv footage through the ADVC and ATI (with composite, not firewire so as to give a fair comparison)?
That way there would be no risk of the signal being corrupted, the footage would be as good as it can be, right?

Actually you know what might be even a better test? Take a DV or Digital8 cam and capture it to the HDD through FIREWIRE without using the Canopus ADVC-100 then do an analog capture of the same footage using the ADVC-100

Would be interesting to see what difference if any there would be.

I wouldn't be surprised if the DIRECT firewire method looks different than analog to ADVC-100 to FIREWIRE method.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Good idea John, I'll do that too.
Hopefully tonight, if the little one is not too demanding (we're all ill this week).
Would there be any benefit in capturing via the ADVC firewire of the MiniDV footage, as well as an anaolgue capture, or would that simple give me the same results as using a conventional firewire card?





Hey Baldrick, are all these uplaoded pictures pissing you off?
I saw a comment in off topic about all these ADVC-100 posts and it pissed me off.
Let me know
Will

[FulciLives]

So now I'm thinking that what LordSmurf said might be the best solution for the Canopus ADVC-100

I'm talking about his suggestion to try an external processing box (such as the SIMA unit) which can adjust individual color saturation and contrast/brightness etc. Put this between the source and the ADVC-100 and increase the brightness ... lower the contrast ... lower the REDS and GREENS if possible etc.

Now when the ADVC-100 does the conversion it will "fix" the errors you just introduced with the SIMA (or similiar device) by doing what it does ... increasing saturation and contract and lowering the brightness.

Hang on, so are you saying that the ADVC will "...fix the errors you just introduced with the SIMA (or similiar device) by doing what it does".
Do you mean it will not work?
Or do you mean that by lifting the saturation and brightness, once the ADVC lowers them they will be higher than if the external processing box wasn't there and therefore be set at an accetable level?
Sounds sensible, still more money though for the perfect machine
Will

I think you just about got it when you say:

"Or do you mean that by lifting the saturation and brightness, once the ADVC lowers them they will be higher than if the external processing box wasn't there and therefore be set at an accetable level?"

Since we know the Canopus ADVC-100 will over saturate and darken the image we take that into account by reducing the saturation and increasing the brightness BEFORE the signal gets to the ADVC-100 by using something like the SIMA. Then the Canopus ADVC-100 will pump up the saturation and darken the image to a "normal" level ... if you have properly adjusted the signal ahead of time.

It would be hit or miss but once you got it right I would think that the same settings would work with most good quality sources.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

I aso need to ascertain how to force the file to use a specific codec during playback, don't I?
Rather niavely I've been thinking the playback is crucial only when I capture the footage initially.
It's crucial during playback, right?
But, if I've run the file through TMPGEnc and the resulatnt mpeg is saturated and dark (-er than the file produced by the ATI card) it can't be the codec that's at fault, can it?
It must be something happening with the canopus codec within the unit, surely?
Will

I agree that the errors (the oversaturation and darkening of the image etc.) are being introduced internally by the ADVC-100

However ... having said that ... using a different DV codec on the computer to DECODE the signal might make a differene.

If I knew how to use different DV codecs on the computer I would tell you but my DV experience is limited. I don't have any DV capture devices ... not even a digital cam (I have a Hi8 cam which is analog).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[NightWing]

Another outstanding thread guys and gals!

One thing I would recomend is to use one of the "test DVD/laser disk" or one of THX test stuff you see on some of the latest disk to run your tests on. Not as good as a lab full of test gear but much better than even a tape and a recorder show on it.

You get.
1) Ease of Re-testablity.
2) Better range of test to run. Including B&W. Fine detail etc.
3) Can be tried by others with simular equipment.

Hum... On some of the Digital photos sites, one of them has a standard set of test they run on every new camera. You can easly compare picture from camera X and cmpare it to camera Y. Wonder if something like that would be worth it for video?

Reminded me of the story of a company making steel wheels. Slowly they rejection rate got higher and higher. They went crazy trying to find what was going wrong. They finaly trace it to the sledgehammer they would hit the product with. If they got a certain tone ring from it the wheel, it was ok. In this case the hammer was not.

[Will Hay]

However ... having said that ... using a different DV codec on the computer to DECODE the signal might make a differene.

I appreciate you're limited in what you know of DV and trying to help me but knowing even less than you (and hoping anyone else can help)...
...if I never watch the footage and encode it with TMPGEnc to an mppeg2 8000CBR, has the decoding codec been set when I previewed it using Pinnacle Studio?
I read over at doom9 that to use the Canopus codec during playback I have to...



I suppose I could do this, and effectively force my PC to use the Canopus codec (which I've already installed).
Trouble is, I haven't a clue what it means
I'll do some more reading.
I'm still confused as to how this affects the file whenI encode to mpeg2, ie. how do I ensure the correct codec is used so as to possibly elininate this saturation/darkness?
The method described at doom9?
Will

[FulciLives]

Will ...

It was said at least once in this THREAD but maybe you missed it ... when your MPEG-2 encoder "reads" the DV AVI file for MPEG-2 conversion the DV AVI must be DECODED so that the MPEG-2 encoder can "read it" and encode it to MPEG-2 DVD format or whatever type of MPEG encoding you are doing.

This is where the DV codec you use on the computer comes into play.

I guess I would try the doom9 trick and see if it makes any difference although how to "confirm" that X brand of DV codec is being used ... don't know.

Also I suppose it is debatable at this point what difference there will be from using different DV codecs. I'm afraid that the "damage" is already done by the Canopus DV codec that the ADVC-100 uses internally. Different DV codecs on the computer will affect in some way the decoding but by how much ... well that is what we are trying to find out!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[BARCH]

I recently also bought the advc-100 after reading all the amazing reviews on this sight. But I too have a similar problem with the colour. One vhs video I captured I had the blue colour oversaturated and on another video it just seemed to be darker than normal. I currently use pinnacle liquid edition to do the capture, edit, author, etc. Hope there is a solution to this.

[Will Hay]

I recently also bought the advc-100 after reading all the amazing reviews on this sight. But I too have a similar problem with the colour. One vhs video I captured I had the blue colour oversaturated and on another video it just seemed to be darker than normal. I currently use pinnacle liquid edition to do the capture, edit, author, etc. Hope there is a solution to this.

Keep checking back here, I'll be damned if this thing is gonna' beat me
I might not solve it but I'll understand it, if nothing else.
Will

[lordsmurf]

I'll be damned if this thing is gonna' beat me

[nickerous]

[/img]

[Will Hay]

I'll be damned if this thing is gonna' beat me

I don't give up that easy.

[nickerous]

Wheeee!!! It worked!!!


sorry, I'm not very familiar with uploading pics, just wanted to see if it would work. I'll test out my own Canopus setup and see if I get the same thing. Not noticing anything on playback, but 90% of my stuff is animation

[trevlac]

I have a Sony MiniDV camcorder.
So, you mean run the footage through the VCR and capture to the ADVC and the ATI?
The way I did last nights testing was:
downstairs VCR > upstrairs TV > ADVC via composite cable
downstairs VCR > upstrairs TV > ATI Radeon via composite cable
Or do you mean run the MiniDV footage through the ADVC directly (via the composite leads)?

1) Replace the ADVC with the Sony in your chain above, and record via composite using all of the same cables, etc.
2) Play it on your TV
... If it looks bad, it's the connectors or DV in general
... Looks OK? Go to step #3

3) Transfer Sony footage via firewire (i don't think ADVC firewire or other matters. it may)
4) Play on PC.
... If it looks bad, it is the Decompression codec. (Make sure this file uses the same codec as the ADVC file using gspot)
... Looks OK? Something wrong with the ADVC

Just my thoughts.....

Also, I don't do ouput from my TV. If you adjust the TV controls, do you see the effect on the ATI? Probably not, but worth a look. You may not need a SIMA then. I don't know how your connector works. If you can get s-video and composite out of it, it is not just a simple passthru.

It looks as more people post, that the ADVC has a problem. I'm a bit surprised that the codec is bad. Canopus has some higher end stuff that probably uses the same codec. I doubt people would put up with the bleed you see. There are quite a few review that say the Canopus codec is good. Could be a different version in your unit, but why would they go thru the trouble.

[Will Hay]

[/img]

Yep, looks like you're suffereing the same problems as me.




Good
Will

[Will Hay]

Wheeee!!! It worked!!!


sorry, I'm not very familiar with uploading pics, just wanted to see if it would work. I'll test out my own Canopus setup and see if I get the same thing. Not noticing anything on playback, but 90% of my stuff is animation

Man, that's funny.
I did work, it isn't now
Will

[Will Hay]

I have a Sony MiniDV camcorder.
So, you mean run the footage through the VCR and capture to the ADVC and the ATI?
The way I did last nights testing was:
downstairs VCR > upstrairs TV > ADVC via composite cable
downstairs VCR > upstrairs TV > ATI Radeon via composite cable
Or do you mean run the MiniDV footage through the ADVC directly (via the composite leads)?

1) Replace the ADVC with the Sony in your chain above, and record via composite using all of the same cables, etc.

I can't do that.
My Sony doesn't have passthrough.
I can't record to the camcorder.
Will

[Will Hay]

I'm home from work now.....


I just downloaded and installed gspot, and for the hell of it, I've done a test run on a capture Ive just done with the ADVC-100:

[trevlac]

I can't do that.
My Sony doesn't have passthrough.
I can't record to the camcorder.

You don't need 'passthru'. You need analog in.

TRV19 ?

Wow. I thought all of them had ADC. I even have a really cheap sharp ($269 new) that has analog in.

Scratch that test.

[trevlac]

I must say, I don't have one of these so I'm not clear what is going on.

However, I read thru the manual, and it doesn't look like you get any software with the unit?

Did you install http://www.canopus-uk.com/US/Products/DV_Codec/pm_dvcodec.asp
by any chance?

I hate to tell people to install software. I'm reckless. But if my machine crashes it's probably a good thing. Makes me spend more time with my family.

[FulciLives]

... But if my machine crashes it's probably a good thing. Makes me spend more time with my family.

Family?

Oh you mean those people that bring you food and drink and cigarettes to the computer when you are busy typing on DVDRHELP.COM or trying to figure out the best MPEG-2 encoding proceedures for your latest project?

Yeah ... family ... they do come in handy sometimes

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[rhegedus]

Oh you mean those people that bring you food and drink and cigarettes to the computer when you are busy typing on DVDRHELP.COM or trying to figure out the best MPEG-2 encoding proceedures for your latest project?

Yeah ... family ... they do come in handy sometimes

You mean .................. I'm not alone with this obsession?

[Will Hay]

Did you install http://www.canopus-uk.com/US/Products/DV_Codec/pm_dvcodec.asp
by any chance?

Yes, I did.
Yesterday

[Will Hay]

I can't do that.
My Sony doesn't have passthrough.
I can't record to the camcorder.

You don't need 'passthru'. You need analog in.

TRV19 ?

Wow. I thought all of them had ADC. I even have a really cheap sharp ($269 new) that has analog in.

Scratch that test.

I have the TRV14 which is the cheap tight arsed 'UK government tax it higher as it's classed as a recorder'.
Bastards.
Mine doesn't have it, and I couldn;t wait for the TRV19 to come out, it came out two months after I got hold of the TRV14.
Will

[Will Hay]

am far from an expert, but the most interesting picture to me is the red star. All the detail is lost in the glow around the star with the canopus. Since that detail has red in it, and you think the red is getting saturated, wouldn't you see the red even more with the canopus shot? Maybe it is a brightness/contrast problem and not a saturation problem?

Of course they are not the exact frames being compared either. Just a thought.

I find the star to be interesting also. I'd expect the white on the ATI to wash out the details because the brightness and contrast seem to be higher on the ATI. Is this really the same pic ?

Any possible way of doing another STAR picture but this time with both captures at roughly the same point in time. I am bothered by the lack of detail in the white area surrounding the STAR in the CANOPUS picture but it clearly is not from the same moment in time as the ATI capture ... you can tell that the white star IN the READ STAR (the one in the bottom right leg) is smaller in the CANOPUS pic meaning one pic is behind the other ... and this might explain the differences in the pics.

Here is a comparison I just did of the star.
Will

[Will Hay]

One question...

I'm just about to do some more comparisons, this time with MiniDV footage.
Three shots.

1) MiniDV footage connected to the ADVC-100 via composite (effectively anaolgue, right?)

2) MiniDV footage connected to the ATI Radeon via composite; captured with Virtualdub at 19/20 PicVideo MJPEG codec 720x576

3) Firewire card (not the firewire on the ADVC, just in case!).

As I say, one question...

I should encode them all with TMPGEnc right (8000CBR)?
Or should I/can I take screenshots of the initial avi's?
Will

[trevlac]

I should encode them all with TMPGEnc right (8000CBR)?
Or should I/can I take screenshots of the initial avi's?
Will

I say initial avi's. Why throw mpeg in the problem. Also, am I gonna get my color bars? And if you keep posting pics, can you give us some skin shots ?

[Will Hay]

I should encode them all with TMPGEnc right (8000CBR)?
Or should I/can I take screenshots of the initial avi's?
Will

I say initial avi's. Why throw mpeg in the problem. Also, am I gonna get my color bars? And if you keep posting pics, can you give us some skin shots ?

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what to do with the colour bars, even after reading my manual
Where am I outputting the bars to?
And skin, you mean the effect on human flesh?
Sure!
Will