ADVC-100 vs ATI Radeon - Screenshots

[Rookie64]

You can see the areas that are affected most when brought out appying effects...these for example -

ftp://members.aol.com/rk2004r/vegas-captures.jpg


notice how much red is in her forehead

Contrast is extreme as well - that's something you'll need to adjust.


ftp://members.aol.com/rk2004r/captures-star.jpg

[rhegedus]

Does it have to be this hard?

Depends if you're watching Buffy

[Will Hay]

You can see the areas that are affected most when brought out appying effects...these for example -




notice how much red is in her forehead

Contrast is extreme as well - that's something you'll need to adjust.

It's a little hard to notce anything from that pic

Oh, and Rob, I must be the only man on the planet who thinks SM Gellar is a pig

[Rookie64]

It's a little hard to notce anything from that pic

I'll keep trying - connection keeps timing out

[lordsmurf]

Will, maybe there is a chance the $75 US Sima SED-EM will help you.

SED-EM just so no mistakes

You know I'm in the UK, right? Just checked it out on google, sure looks a good idea. Will

Yeah, that's why I said US in the amount ... whatever that is in pounds or euros or however that works these days ... it's been a bit confusing for those of us that never use it.

I believe the device is format free (NTSC/PAL) in terms of what it does.

You'd have to research it a bit. I took a gamble on the SED-CM recently for special reason, and it worked like a charm.

[ronnylov]

Regarding codecs, a codec is both coder and decoder so different DV codecs may decode the capture on the PC differently (you can't take any screenshot unless it is decoded). I read somewhere that for instance Canopus DV codec 1.0 has a chroma upsampling bug which can be fixed by fixbrokenchromaupsampling in avisynth. Maybe it's worth investigating?

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33526

[trevlac]

Regarding codecs, a codec is both coder and decoder so different DV codecs may decode the capture on the PC differently (you can't take any screenshot unless it is decoded). I read somewhere that for instance Canopus DV codec 1.0 has a chroma upsampling bug which can be fixed by fixbrokenchromaupsampling in avisynth. Maybe it's worth investigating?

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33526

This was exactly what is missing form this discussion. When your device captures it encodes in DV. When you view on the pc or encode with TMPGEnc, you are decoding it. The capture should not be a problem. The device is getting the full color info from the capture chip (this one is probably what is inside). It then drops it down by 1/2. It is the DECODE that is the challange. That is where a codec (the DV one installed and used on your machine try virtualdub to figure out which one) probably upsamples the color info so TMPGEnc can encode. It's at least worth a shot to check it out.

As far as the color bars go..... They can be used to adjust the hue/saturation/brightness (black level)/contrast (white level) of a monitor or possibly a capture card. Look on page #10 of this manual see how to output them. I'm assuming you can capture them at the same time you output them.

http://www.canopus.com/US/pdf/man-advc100.pdf

Even if you don't get this to work, Man you are gonna learn a lot.

[FOO]

I also read a bunch of stuff on DV codec comparisons. I remember
distinctly that the Canopus produced some filtering artifacts.
Try the Panasonic. It's supposed to be inert as far as filters go.

[rhegedus]

Try the Panasonic. It's supposed to be inert as far as filters go.

Can mess up VirtualDub though...........

VirtuaDub error: VideoSourceAVI

[Rookie64]

You can see the areas that are affected most when brought out appying effects...these for example -

ftp://members.aol.com/rk2004r/vegas-captures.jpg


notice how much red is in her forehead

Contrast is extreme as well - that's something you'll need to adjust.


ftp://members.aol.com/rk2004r/captures-star.jpg

got it working that time

[Will Hay]

When your device captures it encodes in DV. When you view on the pc or encode with TMPGEnc, you are decoding it. The capture should not be a problem. The device is getting the full color info from the capture chip (this one is probably what is inside). It then drops it down by 1/2. It is the DECODE that is the challange. That is where a codec (the DV one installed and used on your machine try virtualdub to figure out which one) probably upsamples the color info so TMPGEnc can encode.

Hmm, well that's the pickle.
When I 'capture' either with the ADVC-100 or the ATI card, I can see the difference in the reds through both the preview window and by playing back the captured avi.
All before the TMPGEnc process.
So, to me at least, that would signify the problem lies with the ADVC codec, right?
Will

[Will Hay]

You can see the areas that are affected most when brought out appying effects...these for example -




notice how much red is in her forehead

Contrast is extreme as well - that's something you'll need to adjust.

Hi pal,
Forgive my ignorance (as I know there's a useful purpose here), but what have you done and how, to demonstrate the flaws of the 'captures'?
Will

[Will Hay]

So I suppose, what everyone is saying is that it might be worth trying a different codec, right?
I'm getting confused.
The ADVC-100 is doing all the work itself, in converting the anaolgue feed to digital.
What I don't understand is...
....when I 'capture' to the PC, and then save the avi (without any rendering or editing), am I using a codec?
My current 'capture' software will not let me select anything other than one codec, which I'm assuming to be the MS one.
When I tried scenalzer I changed the 'capture' option to save as a canopus file type, but that's all.
I'm getting a little confused
I know that when I run an anolgue feed through my ATI the PicVideo codec is compressing the feed, and in the same way the ADVC-100 does (insofar as it's a hardware decoder and therefore has the codec in-built).
Will

[Rookie64]

Hi pal,
Forgive my ignorance (as I know there's a useful purpose here), but what have you done and how, to demonstrate the flaws of the 'captures'?
Will

Trying to point out that when you try to touch up the screencaps in Vegas 4.0 and Photoshop, the areas where you have too much red, shadow or contrast are enhanced rather than fixed


I don't know what the original source looks like, but I see too much red in some areas on both the ATI and Canopus screencaps.

I used gradients, adjusted the brightness and contrast levels, added seconary color, replaced your color with a tint to highlight shadows where there was too much color.

I've had similar problems with certain captures I did with my ATI card...all it took was adjusting the contrast in MMC, then I recaptured and everything was OK.

The star screencaps are just examples of ways to touch up over saturated colors.


Not sure if it's any help...but something to consider

[Will Hay]

I see
Will

[rhegedus]

Tempted to install a Pinnacle DC30 Plus I've got hanging around..........

[trevlac]

When I 'capture' either with the ADVC-100 or the ATI card, I can see the difference in the reds through both the preview window and by playing back the captured avi.

How do I put this ??

ADVC

1) The chip in the ADVC samples the analog signal and makes pixels with full color.
2) The ADVC codec "in the box" encodes this to DV with 1/2 the color
3) The ADVC app copies the file to your PC
4) The codec on your machine decodes the file and makes the 1/2 color full color when you preview/play back. <<=== This is the important one.

So, what is the codec on your machine? Maybe you can use This to find out. Maybe there is a better one. BTW: The Canopus 2.1 DV Codec is considered to be very good. Maybe it is not the default on your machine. I don't know. Maybe the codec has nothing to do with it.

ATI

1) The 'Theater' chip samples the signal and makes pixels with full color
2) If you choose YUY2 or some format like that, you get full color to your codec (YV12 give 1/2 color, RGB cause a conversion of color)
3) The MJPeg codec takes the YUY2 pixels and compresses/store a file
4) Most likely, the same MJPeg codec decompresses the full color when you preview/play back. No upsample needed.


Please understand. I'm a rookie. But I think I understand the basic process.

How about those color bars? If you post them, I'll give you a detailed explination of how your hue/saturation/contrast/brightness are set. This is what the other poster is pointing out by removing R/G/or B from your pictures. However, if the bars are SMPTE standard, I will use a book I have to read them and give a clear explination.

I am just learning about this color stuff, so I have a personal interest in doing the test. Maybe a pro will step in and give us some words of wisdom, where I'm all wet.

[Will Hay]

Thanks Trevor, that's just the kind of guidance I was looking for
Appreciate that man.
Will


BTW, Page ten says nothing about outputting colour bars, but I have that manual anyway so I'll check tonight.

[proxyx99]

Well, well. Long thread with all angles covered. I think that more cannot be done then Will Hay already did. Unless someone suggests modifying ADVC circuit board. Personaly I'm not worried about red, or green or saturation. I'm worried about white. The bleads from (mostly red but not only) affect white to that degree that the most important color in picture balancing is almost always anything but white. I don't think that this can be corrected. The only way is to modify the signal at the source or before it's dumped on the HD (like saturation and color balance directly in capture software). No DV capture allows for that to my knowledge.
Changing codecs, software etc. will not help. The pictures are bad, however nice we want to be to you. That's a fact. If I had a DV source like this I would dump it in a day. You don't spend 250 $ for a DIY "let's make a video" project that would require resoldering the circuit board, reverse engineering software and building your own codec just to be able to complete the job. Will Hay has bought highly acclaimed piece of hardware junk unable to do what it is supposed to do in a first place.
My suggestion, don't waste more of your time. Look for something that will do the job. Sell it and go for something else. These pictures look like 2nd VHS copy where color bleeds start do degrade the picture in such a way that noone and nothing will be able to clean it up.
I have DAC-100 and so fas so good, no complaints. Colors are accurate, no bleeding and white is white. DV capture's are always a bit on a "deep" side in terms of brighness but yours seem to be a notch overdone.
In my opinion there are too many flaws, no wonder that you're not happy. Let's keep in mind that you are the only one who can see the source as well. That's way you can't take it.
Try a different device. I would borrow a D8 or miniDV with analog to digital passthrough and using the same setup (except for DV thing) test your input. If the same, then suggestion about SCART may be good. If it's better, closer to the original then make an Ebay ad for your ADVC and say goodbye to it. May be a bad unit or batch. I would dump it and look for something else. Your ATI does way better job then ADVC and that's a fact.

[trevlac]

1) The ADVC-100 is doing all the work itself, in converting the anaolgue feed to digital.
2) ....when I 'capture' to the PC, and then save the avi (without any rendering or editing), am I using a codec?

1) Yes
2) No (actually, file headers may be created, however it is my understanding that the data is not re-compressed. This is a copy process.)

3) When you view / play back / encode to mpeg2 a DV codec decodes the file.

[trevlac]

BTW, Page ten says nothing about outputting colour bars, but I have that manual anyway so I'll check tonight.

Page 16 if you follow what acrobat tells you. Page 10 if you look at what is printed on the page.

[Will Hay]

BTW, Page ten says nothing about outputting colour bars, but I have that manual anyway so I'll check tonight.

Page 16 if you follow what acrobat tells you. Page 10 if you look at what is printed on the page.

Yeah, just seen it, although I don't quite follow it
I'll try do some playing tonight.
Will

[Will Hay]

Hello, and thanks

Try a different device. I would borrow a D8 or miniDV with analog to digital passthrough and using the same setup (except for DV thing) test your input. If the same, then suggestion about SCART may be good. If it's better, closer to the original then make an Ebay ad for your ADVC and say goodbye to it. May be a bad unit or batch. I would dump it and look for something else. Your ATI does way better job then ADVC and that's a fact.

I don't have the option of borrowing a passthrough camcorder, but I will hook a VCR directly to the ADVC and the ATI tonight.
That will at least prove to me that there's nothing being distorted in the travel of the signal.
I bought this from the US and had it shipped over by a pal in California, looks like I won't be able to send it back.

How likely is it that the unit is faulty?
I so want the ADVC to work!!!!!!!!
Thing that pisses me off most is I came close to buying the DAC.
You know the thing that swayed me into paying more for ther Canopus?
The ideal that you couldn't beat it
Will

[trevlac]

Try a different device. I would borrow a ... miniDV with analog to digital passthrough and using the same setup

Excellent advice. Will, can you find a miniDV cam? You don't even need passthru. Just cap some source thru the same connectors and just play it back on your TV. Then, copy the dv to your PC and view again. This could tell you if its the ADVC or the PC codec or maybe the connectors.

[Will Hay]

Try a different device. I would borrow a ... miniDV with analog to digital passthrough and using the same setup

Excellent advice. Will, can you find a miniDV cam? You don't even need passthru. Just cap some source thru the same connectors and just play it back on your TV. Then, copy the dv to your PC and view again. This could tell you if its the ADVC or the PC codec or maybe the connectors.

I have a Sony MiniDV camcorder.
So, you mean run the footage through the VCR and capture to the ADVC and the ATI?
The way I did last nights testing was:
downstairs VCR > upstrairs TV > ADVC via composite cable
downstairs VCR > upstrairs TV > ATI Radeon via composite cable
Or do you mean run the MiniDV footage through the ADVC directly (via the composite leads)?
I suppose if I capture directly from the MiniDV to the ADVC and ATI that will tell me if the signal is getting corrupted.
I'd love to think the issue was the leads but as I'm using the same leads for the ATI capture (and I'm perfectly happy with that) then it must be something else.

Will
Will

[Will Hay]

Try a different device. I would borrow a ... miniDV with analog to digital passthrough and using the same setup

Excellent advice. Will, can you find a miniDV cam? You don't even need passthru. Just cap some source thru the same connectors and just play it back on your TV. Then, copy the dv to your PC and view again. This could tell you if its the ADVC or the PC codec or maybe the connectors.

I don't understand how we can ascertain where the fault lies, as surely by your method we're doing exactly what I did last night, albiet with different footage (its still running through the VCR, up to the TV in the bedroom and outputting to the ADVC).
Will

[FulciLives]

I said this in another thread but it seems like it needs to be here now in this thread. I have read that the Canopus DV codec is known to have "issues" including color saturation problems. Based on what I've read this appears to be an issue not so much with DV codecs in general but a problem specific to the Canopus DV codec.

Now since the ADVC-100 does the conversion to DV in hardware (in the external device) it uses the Canopus DV codec. So the error is probably being introduced there.

I can understand how it makes sense that using a different codec on the computer might affect the decoding in some way ... be it good or bad ... who knows at this point?

But the "errors" are probably due to the "source" i.e., the codec used by the Canopus ADVC-100 internally.

Now this brings us to a very interesting point. What about other such devices? Someone already mentioned in this thread and I've heard it before ... the DataVideo DAC-100 (which appears to be almost an exact clone of the ADVC-100) has better color representation. I have heard this time and time again. Why is that? My guess is that since it is NOT made by Canopus is that the DAC-100 uses a different DV codec (internally). This DV codec obviously must not have the "issues" that the ADVC-100 apparently has (Will is not the first to report that the ADVC-100 produces over-saturation especially for the color red).

So although I suppose this doesn't really help Will (sorry!) ... I think maybe we need to start looking at other options such as the DataVideo DAC-100 or the ADS Pyro A/V link (which is a similiar device that has been getting some attention as of late).

I would love to see side by side captures of the ADVC-100, DAC-100 and the Pyro A/V link ... I doubt we will find one person that has all 3 of these devices though. Perhaps someone who has a DataVideo DAC-100 can capture a PAL VHS clip then post the results ... send the tape to Will who could then capture the same segment with the ADVC-100 and post his pictures ... giving us something to compare.

The only thing that worries me about the DataVideo DAC-100 is that I've heard it cannot capture B/W whereas the Canopus ADVC-100 can (again from user reports). That seems very odd!

As for Will attempting to struggle further with the Canopus ADVC-100 ... the only thing I see left that you can do is play with some codecs on the computer and see if you can't try more than one alternative in hopes that it might make a change for the better. Otherwise I don't see much more that you can do OTHERTHAN perhaps adjusting the saturation etc. while doing the MPEG-2 conversion.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Will Hay]

Anyone know how I select a different DV codec in Pinnacle Studio 8.10?
Will

[FulciLives]

I just mentioned that you could adjust the saturation etc. when doing your MPEG-2 encoding step but although that should help to an extent it is apparent that the "errors" are being introduced to the signal as it is being processed internaly by the ADVC-100

So now I'm thinking that what LordSmurf said might be the best solution for the Canopus ADVC-100

I'm talking about his suggestion to try an external processing box (such as the SIMA unit) which can adjust individual color saturation and contrast/brightness etc. Put this between the source and the ADVC-100 and increase the brightness ... lower the contrast ... lower the REDS and GREENS if possible etc.

Now when the ADVC-100 does the conversion it will "fix" the errors you just introduced with the SIMA (or similiar device) by doing what it does ... increasing saturation and contract and lowering the brightness.

Damn shame you have to fiddle with it in this way but that might be the best way to do it.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Will Hay]

Hey John,

.....I have read that the Canopus DV codec is known to have "issues" including color saturation problems........Now since the ADVC-100 does the conversion to DV in hardware (in the external device) it uses the Canopus DV codec. So the error is probably being introduced there......But the "errors" are probably due to the "source" i.e., the codec used by the Canopus ADVC-100 internally.

Would it be a fair test then to run some MiniDv footage through the ADVC and ATI (with composite, not firewire so as to give a fair comparison)?
That way there would be no risk of the signal being corrupted, the footage would be as good as it can be, right?

I would love to see side by side captures of the ADVC-100, DAC-100 and the Pyro A/V link ... I doubt we will find one person that has all 3 of these devices though.

Stand by, I might have two soon

The only thing that worries me about the DataVideo DAC-100 is that I've heard it cannot capture B/W whereas the Canopus ADVC-100 can (again from user reports). That seems very odd!

This is what put me off, I'm a huge old movie fan and couldn't risk thisx problem.
I was told though that even a B&W film outputs some form of colour signal so it would capture B&W.
I didn't really know what this meant but I went the ADVC route anyway

As for Will attempting to struggle further with the Canopus ADVC-100 ... the only thing I see left that you can do is play with some codecs on the computer and see if you can't try more than one alternative in hopes that it might make a change for the better.

I'm struggling with this part
Are we saying the problem is not directly related to the internal workings of the canopus, more so the codec on my computer?
I know we don't know for sure but we're trying to eliminate each possible cause, right?
Please, someone tell me how I select a different codec!
In the case of scenalzer would it be safe to say the following box will change the codec?



Anyone use scenalzer for this purpose, or any other DV capture program for that matter?
I gave a twenty second try to DVIO but as it didn't have a preview and produced the same problems as Pinnacle I ditched it.
Will