Analog picture quality (Panasonic E50/E60 and Sony RDR-GX7)

[netuer]

I have gotten a Panasonic E50 and a Sony RDR-GX7 to decide which one I am going to keep. My source is children VHS and some other semi-professional and amatuer VHS. All of them don't have macrovision. I use the default setting on both players. The Panny is pretty easy to record, and the quality is SP is pretty good. The PQ (picture quality) is very, very close to the original in SP mode. However, the PQ of the Sony is darker and not as clear. Tweaking the recording settings (contract, colors, noise reduction, etc.) doesn't seem to improve the PQ much.

I did a test using Sony and Panny with the same VCR (Panasonic SVHS, S-Video out) and same VHS. I had also tried another VCR (JVC VHS, composite out), and the results were similar. Here is a screen shot from each. Each file is about 400K in .tif format captured through PowerDVD.

Sony RDR-GX7
http://www.gotomyhome.com/misc/sony.tif

Panasonic E50
http://www.gotomyhome.com/misc/panny.tif

It is obvious from the scren shot that Panny has better quality. I am going to return the Sony and keep the Panny.

BTW, if you know if I am not doing something right with the Sony, please let me know.

Tim

[donpedro]

Hmm... by looking on pictures, I would say that Panasonic's TBC is reason.

On Panasonic picture you can see also some big one color spots (areas), typical mpeg2 issue. And another one... did you see bear's sleeve that is crosing border of the door ? You can actualy see border and it shouldn't be there.

Sony is definitely darker and seems to be little distort, also more grainy, but I feel that I see more details.

Since I don't have original I can't compare.

[zanos]

If I'm not mistaken the reason for the brighter picture is because the black level on the panasonics aren't adjusted properly while the Sony may be. They didn't fix this problem until the dmr e80. That machine would allow you to adjust to the proper black level or leave it unadjusted which would have produced a brighter picture.

[ejai]

The problem was fixed on the E50 and higher

[DaveS]

you need to set the black level on the sony to match your VCR output ..it's in the setup & documented in the manual...

[netuer]

So it seems that Sony is not a bad DVD recorder at all. It was my fault. I didn't know that my source VHS tape has macrovision, I think. I tried another VHS tape, and the Sony's PQ is not distorted. Here are the old and new samples. The file names with "1" are the old samples (with Macrovision, I think), and ones with 2 are the new samples.

It is interesting to see that E50 can record a VHS tape with Macrovision (or some kind of copy protection mechanism).

The tape 1 has some kind of copy protection. It is a commercial VHS.

Sony
http://www.gotomyhome.com/misc/1-sony.tif
http://www.gotomyhome.com/misc/2-sony.tif

Panasonic
http://www.gotomyhome.com/misc/1-panny.tif
http://www.gotomyhome.com/misc/2-panny.tif

I use the default setting and SP mode for both recorders.

I can't really see much difference in the result except for the brightness level, which can be adjusted on Sony.

The only thing I see is that the frames shift a bit if you use a graphic viewing tool to viem them back and froth. Can someone tell me why this is?

Thanks.

[FulciLives]

Since you pretty much dimissed the first batch of photos I only looked at the second batch.

First of all it's hard to tell PQ based on still images and it doesn't help that it is a crude drawing of two animals in a forest.

But having said that I think the SONY image looks slightly better although both look good to me.

As for the shift it appears the SONY is capturing more of the image (note more black on the sides than the Panny) and this too is a phenomenon that has been seen amoung different computer based capture cards. It could be because the Panny captures 704x480 and maybe the SONY does 720x480 but I know more about the Panny than the SONY which I know little of. Either way that really isn't a big issue if you ask me.

Something you don't seem to maybe be paying too close attention too is the black level issue. This IS a big issue!

I know the Panny has two settings for inputs. They call it LIGHTER and DARKER. I'm not sure which is which but one is for 7.5 IRE BLACK and the other is for 0.0 IRE BLACK. Basically PAL and Japanese NTSC use 0.0 IRE BLACK whereas most other forms of NTSC (including the USA and CANADA) use 7.5 IRE BLACK.

SO it is VERY important that the input is set correctly. Apparently the SONY has the same settings as well.

I know you wanted to leave the DVD recorders at default to make the testing maybe seem fair but having the wrong black level is not fair. For instance most consumer TV sets have the CONTRAST pumped up full blast and that just ain't right! Also when reviewing a TV most experienced AV mags will first set the TV using a test disc to make sure that the color and contrast and brightness etc. is set up AS GOOD AS THAT TV can do it. You never compare two TV sets with each set to the default settings. That just doesn't make sense. This applies to the DVD recorder comparrison as well and most importantly the black level issue.

Anyway a few people have reported that the SONY has a slightly better picture quality than the PANASONIC but the SONY is also a hell of a lot more money and based on the images provided the PANASONIC still looks damn good so you should maybe take that into account as well. In other words although the PANASONIC is a hair's breath less in quality than the SONY doesn't mean the SONY is worth all that extra money.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[netuer]

FulciLives,

I agreed with your thinking regarding Panny and Sony. As Zoran Karapancev mentioned in the review of the Sony and in some post, Sony seems to have slight better analog PQ than Panasonic. It is between 10 and 9+. The benefit of the Sony is the slight better TBC/encoder and the many adjustments that it provides, which are lacking in Panasonic.

The lowest price (including shipping) for Sony is about $510. The lowest price for E60 is about $404 (free shipping right now). There is a $100 difference in price.

http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=857814/blsrt=1/ut=0ca38cdc34074770

http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=825896/blsrt=1/ut=0ca38cdc34074770

My main purpose for a DVD recorder is to transfer VHS to DVD. I need to edit and add chapters/menu on PC. So for a E60, I would also need a DVD-ROM drive that can read DVD-RAM, which would add $40 or more to the cost. In addition, I would buy a few more DVD-RAM disks. However, I already have a DVD+RW PC drive and many DVD+R/RW disks. So the real costs of the 2 recorders are very similar, definitely less thatn $50.

The Panny does allow recording of my copy protected materials, which I only have a few and have already tranferred to the DVDs via E50.

The Sony is able to format the 2 DVD+RW that my DVD+RW drive and Nero 5.5 ruined when I just got the drive. Ever since I installed a firmware update on the DVD+RW drive and upgraded to Nero 6, I had only made a DVD+R coaster or two.

I will play with Sony a few days more. And most likely, I will keep the Sony (because of the adjustments that it provides) and return the E50.

Tim

[donpedro]

The Panny does allow recording of my copy protected materials, which I only have a few and have already tranferred to the DVDs via E50.

Are you sure about that ? It does not detect Macrovision ?

[netuer]

Are you sure about that ? It does not detect Macrovision ?

Well, as you can see from my first samples, the screen shot from the Sony is distorted, but it is clear in Panny. In the 2nd samples, the screen shots from the Sony and Panny are all clear. I don't know if there is a Macrovision on my first VHS, but it seems to have some kind of copy protection on it that Sony can detect and respect That VHS is a commerical VHS. It is a P.B. Bear in both Mandarin and British, published by DK (some British company).

[FulciLives]

Concerning the price difference between the SONY and the PANASONIC ...

I thought (last time I checked) that the SONY was A LOT more money than the PANASONIC.

Since the SONY is actually not THAT much more THEN perhaps it is worth it.

However I know that editing an imported DVD-RAM disc is not all that hard. Not so sure if editing an imported DVD+RW is as easy. I did it myself with some DVD+RW discs that a friend made for me in a Philips stand alone and the editing worked without throwing off the sync (I used TMPGEnc DVD Author to import and edit the start and end points).

However someone else on this board recently tried this trick with a Cyberhome stand alone recorder using DVD+RW and had audio sync problems.

So I dunno what to think about all that

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[ZenZen]

Fulcilives wrote

I know the Panny has two settings for inputs. They call it LIGHTER and DARKER. I'm not sure which is which but one is for 7.5 IRE BLACK and the other is for 0.0 IRE BLACK. Basically PAL and Japanese NTSC use 0.0 IRE BLACK whereas most other forms of NTSC (including the USA and CANADA) use 7.5 IRE BLACK.

I've searched the manual and searched my DMR-50 for these two settings. Can anyone point me in the right direction Thanks

[donpedro]

I've searched the manual and searched my DMR-50 for these two settings. Can anyone point me in the right direction Thanks

I downloaded it from panasonic and black level is mentioned on pages 5 and 47.

[FulciLives]

I've searched the manual and searched my DMR-50 for these two settings. Can anyone point me in the right direction Thanks

I downloaded it from panasonic and black level is mentioned on pages 5 and 47.

I too once downloaded the manual (which I think I have since deleted) and as I recall it does mention the LIGHTER/DARKER setting for INPUT LEVEL but it makes no mention of which is for 0.0 IRE BLACK and which is for 7.5 IRE BLACK but it makes sense that LIGHTER is for 7.5 IRE BLACK and DARKER is for 0.0 IRE BLACK but without testing it yourself (as I don't have a DMR-E50) you are simply guessing.

I'm sure there are Panny DMR-E50 (or newer) users that know which is which ... afterall it seems the Panny stand alone DVD recorders are the most popular brand.

I have a DMR-E20 on loan from a friend that didn't want to use it anymore (I think he got the DMR-E60) but for me it is a paperweight since it doesn't have the selectable input level control and the TBC in it causes strange color "burst" errors across the top of the screen from most VHS sources (it is intermittent but happens enough that it bothers me).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[netuer]

I had been using E50/E60 and RDR-GX7 for 2 weeks. I had decided that GX7 has a better PQ for analog capture. The pictures have less artifacts and are smoother. I returned the E50/E60 and kept the GX7. I will be posting some more sample screen shots of the captures from the two recorders soon.