DVD recorder vs. PC -- what can and cannot be done

[Bob W]

I think it boils down to do you want to be frustrated for years and wind up devorced or do you just want to make a quick conversion of your crummy VHS collection.

[donpedro]

Let ma add some more perspective into video hobbyist vs casual home user.

I thought year ago that I wanted to be video hobbyist. Then I realized how much time it takes. Learning a lot about all... Trying diferent softwares... Learn each of them at least to some extent... Crashing computer... Waiting hours just to find out that something went wrong, some setting, field order or just wrong setting... or quality looked bad... all those out off sync issues.... testing capture cards... finding different drivers.... Ohhh my !!!

So than I realized that I have better things to do and now I am casual home user that still wants have captured memories and favorite TV shows on DVD.

[mike1061]

I feel like some of you are saying. I wanted to get in this heavy, but got burnedout before I realy got started.
Thanks a lot, Mike.

[mike1061]

Anybody know anything about this Go-video DVD recorder.
This is called a R6530. It talks about editing, but I didn't see a hard drive.
http://www.govideo.com/?GV=R6530
Thanks Mike.

[lewie49]

And, to answer something for lewie49 regarding "dubbing from DVD-R to the hard drive," comparing the Panasonic machines to the Pioneers, I'd just recommend on the Panasonic side that he could just make one of the copies it sounds like he wants to make onto a DVD-RAM disc, and save one of those for each program he might like to "duplicate" down the road. Not taking anything away from the Pioneer's ability to dub from DVD-R to the HDD (only "presuming" it does that with no loss -- has anyone actually had one and tried it??) -- it's just that the Pioneer is a lot more money, isn't it?? Especially, in comparison to just using a couple of DVD-RAM blank discs?

Well thought out response Thoots. If I get a standalone, a HD model would be useful for several reasons, including broadcast recording and saving to a disk when that's desirable. The new Pioneer 510 (80mb HD) can be had for anywhere from $580 to $650, about the same as the Pany 80E. The 510 has a firewire input/output jack, very handy for usage with DV cams. These features, along with the abililty to save a -R "master" disk, makes it look very attractive. It is brand new so no real PQ reviews are yet available. The Panys generally get excellent notices from owners but if the Pioneer isn't a clunker in the image quality area, I'll probably get it.

The definition of "hobbyist" can vary. In my case, shooting miles of DV footage, editing on a PC and creating a polished final product, I think, qualifies me for that title. A standalone with a firewire input woud serve as more of a DVD duplicator than a primary editor. Again, the ability to create and duplicate a finished DVD with chapter marks inserted where I want them (in this case at the beginning of each competiton event on the disk) is critical. A DVDR unit with a HD seems to be the best option to accomplish this. It's another tool in a hobbyist's or semi-pro's kit.

[ginge]

This has been a really interesting thing and has touched upon a lot of issues I think we all are concerned with.

I look at the stand alone DVD recorder vs. computer burner much like I look at the stand alone audio CD burner vs. computer burner....basically, it's nice to have both. Both have their own attractions. For me, it's great to easily make a DVD of an old VHS tape without having to capture it, fix the color/brightness, encode it (and pray for no audio sync problems), etc. However, a computer buner offers the luxury of custom editing, deluxe menu creations...and just a wealth of options not available on a stand alone recorder.

If you have the luxury of splurging for both...you truly have the best of both worlds.

[lewie49]

One thing that I did not mention is that when your source material is DV and possibly Dig8, editing on a PC and duplicating on a standalone with a firewire port may make more sense than it would for a VHS source wth its generational quality loss. Capturing DV to a PC, editing it, giving it a "professional" finish and then taking it back to a DV tape(s) is a wonderful process because it is all lossless. Taking that finished 500+ line resolution product to a DVD, maintaining the same picture quality is an exciting prospect. When I started with DV editing, that option was not readily available. Copies of my beautiful high res master tapes had to be distributed on regular VHS tapes. They looked good but clearly could not compare to DVD. Isn't it nice that now, whether its with a PC DVD burner or a standalone, it's all so doable?

[lordsmurf]

because it is all lossless.

Actually, DV is a pretty lossy format.

[energy80s]

Although not nearly as bad as DVD!!!

[handyguy]

"This is called a R6530. It talks about editing, but I didn't see a hard drive."

You don't need a HD to edit. Dvdrm disks are HDs you edit on those.

[donpedro]

because it is all lossless.

Actually, DV is a pretty lossy format.

Just to make sure that people don't get confused.

Yes an No. If you have MiniDV camcorder, only loss that is in process is in the begining when you record with camcorder. That is the time when analog "light" get transfered through optics (BTW that is first loss ), sensor and some other stuff (that I have no knowledge about) and records it on tape. Recording is done in DV AVI compressed format.

Everething after that is more or less just data copy with no addtional loss at all. I am talking about copy from tape to PC, simle cutts and copy back to tape. No loss there at all.

[lewie49]

Yes an No. If you have MiniDV camcorder, only loss that is in process is in the begining when you record with camcorder.

Everething after that is more or less just data copy with no addtional loss at all. I am talking about copy from tape to PC, simle cutts and copy back to tape. No loss there at all.

Thanks for the follow-up donpedro. I was bit baffled by the "DV is a pretty lossy format". That's news to me (as it would probably be to anyone who shoots DV and edits on their hard disk). I can see no PQ difference in original DV footage and the same edited footage taken back to DV tape from the PC. At my TV's S-video level, the picture is still very good coming off the DV cam directly or from an SVHS copy but at VHS, it's, well, VHS.

I'm looking for a new PC as well as a DVD recorder and I'm now leaning towards a Gateway with its Hitachi-LG multiple write DVD drive and a Pany or Pioneer HD standalone model. It would be an almost perfect editing/duplicating/viewing setup. Pretty expensive but the PC was gonna get purchased anyway. I just wish that there were some reviews of the Pioneer 510. Its feature set is very attractive.

[piano632]

I was bit baffled by the "DV is a pretty lossy format". That's news to me (as it would probably be to anyone who shoots DV and edits on their hard disk).

As long as you don't do anything that re-encodes the DV then it shouldn't lose any quality. Simple cut-and-paste editing shouldn't affect the quality (unless you have some really bad software). If you start adding transitions, fades, etc. then it has to be re-encoded and eventually there will be quality loss. You have to keep in mind that DV is still a compressed format (5:1 compression), but MPEG2 on DVD is even more compressed (about 15:1 at XP quality).

[donpedro]

If you start adding transitions, fades, etc. then it has to be re-encoded and eventually there will be quality loss.

Transitionas are not that bad. Only part that is re-encoded is transition. Worse is using title or logo or something that changes clip during longer time.

[Thorn]

The biggest concern with lossy formats is when you re-encode multiple times. Going from DV and re-encoding (an overlay or something) back to DV, then going to mpeg2 will loose quality. Going from DV with edits to mpeg2 won't be much worse than encoding directly from DV to DVD.

However, you should never put text over your video if you can help it. The unnatural features of letters takes a lot of bandwidth away from your video and degrades the quality. It's preferrable to put a separate title clip before your video or in a spot where you're not concerned about quality. Professional DVD producers can get away with it better because good quality video is easier to encode than the grainy stuff I usually get from my DV cam.

[thoots]

Folks,

Well, I'd just say this is a gross generalization:

computer method = dedicated video hobbyist or pro/semi-pro
recorder method = casual home user

I'm as dedicated as they come, but doing what I need to do on a computer isn't anywhere NEAR as feasible as a standalone recorder for what I want to do.

Instead of generalizing people based upon what method they prefer, I would say "it just depends upon what you want to DO with your video recordings onto DVD." You want to make a few DVD's with lots of "eye candy" such as transitions and fancy menus -- go ahead and spend hours building that stuff on a computer. You want to get your VHS or home movies onto DVD without learning the equivalent of a college degree just to figure it out -- just use a stand-alone machine.

OK, a little poke in there on the computer guys. At any rate, it just is a matter of "what's the best tool for the job you want to do."

And, I've killed a whole afternoon getting screen shots and writing an extensive thread showing everyone just how one of the "hard drive" recorders like the Panasonic DMR-E80H works. You truly can do some "advanced editing," and maybe that'll satisfy folks who just don't need the picture menus and the fancy transitions. Check it out here, if you haven't already:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=192261

thoots

[mike1061]

I read Thoots guide (for the Panasonic DMR-E80H) in the link above, and I have to say, for me it looks great. It looks like the answer to all my dreams, belive it or not. I have to get one. I'm sure there will be something I don't like somewhere. But this looks so easy, I'm bouncing off the walls trying to get together the money to buy one. Just the thought of consolidating these VHS tapes, and getting rid of what I don't want, and even finding what I want is unbelivable. With 1000's to do the thought of using my computer is overwhelming. I have learned tons from everybody over the last year or so, but this looks like the way to go.
Thanks Mike.

[lordsmurf]

Capturing analog in DV, then re-editing to MPEG for DVD is lossy. Moreso than grabbing another AVI codec like HuffYUV, MJPEG or uncompressed, then editing and converting to MPEG for DVD.

Avoid DV if at all possible when grabbing analog data.

When the DV source is DV camera, the source (the DV shot) is already DV, so loss already occurred. There will be no further loss when transferred ot the PC, only loss will be to the MPEG compression.

DV tends to suffer from color shifts and saturation issues when capturing from analog source. It takes tweaking.

The only DV capture device I know of that allows access to the DV codec properties is the Matrox RT Mac ... not even the Canopus products give access to the DV properties (color, saturation, etc).

Editing DV and then re-rendering to anything (even more DV) also incurs loss. But if the only re-render is for MPEG for DVD, then no problems. Loss, but no problems as it is the final product.

I don't see how DV was entered into this equation anyway. The conversation was computer or standalone.

[BobK]

I have 1000's of VHS tapes to transfer. So one question is if I record them on a stand alone, them rip the disk on the computer, then edit & assemble & burn to another disk, have I saved anything? I maen like time, or easier on the computer, cause I can use RW disks. With the DVD-ROM stand alone unit you have can you put more than one show on a disk? Like record one in the morning, and one when you get home. Then edit them?

If you capture to avi then yes- you would save a lot of time. But if you get a card that captures directly to mpeg-2 then doing it that will is going to take more time.

My real question is- why can't I ever get that quote thing to put the quoted text in a white box like everybody else?

[energy80s]

Using raw (or even HUFFyuv) AVI files isn't really practical unless you are working with small clips. DV AVI files are the best way of working with larger scale projects. It offers minimal loss and much more managable file sizes / data throughput than raw video.

As most people have said, in this case your best bet is to go for a standalone DVD recorder - it's pointless going the PC route unless you want to do some serious editing.

[ana_costa_brazil]

Folks,

OK, might as well dive into this one.

I'm another who "tried it on a computer, and will never, EVER waste my time on that again." I spent two years "getting up to speed" with it -- I was an early adopter of the DVD+RW format. "Capturing" and "Editing" isn't tough at all, but converting file formats takes several multiples of your video clip's time, and I never, ever could get a DVD assembly program to produce what I wanted. I had several different "clips" that I just wanted the DVD to play through, as if they were just "chapters." Oh, God no -- absolutely impossible. No, those different "clips" are different "programs," so the DVD will go back to the top menu at the end of each clip. And, you can't "go back" to an earlier clip with the DVD's remote control. Just as an example. So, what now?? Gosh, let's spend hours and hours and hours making one big "clip" out of the little clips, which of course means re-encoding everything into one big file, losing picture quality, and taking roughly 8 hours per each hour of video. Then, I could tediously go through that huge file trying to add chapter marks, and that's when the program usually locked up and crashed....

And so on. Again, if you haven't done this on a computer, please realize that examples such as thundercrush's "WinDVD->Womble->TMPEG->Nero" scenario might well represent something like 10 hours of work and computer processing for each hour of video.

I would also like to note that it looks like overloaded_ide didn't work very hard at figuring out how the Panasonic DMR-E50 makes "different menu items" -- he could have easily put two programs on a DVD-R, each with its own menu item, with each item given the name of the program. Gosh, golly, yes, these standalone things can do that -- you don't need to spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours to accomplish stuff like that.

And, to answer something for lewie49 regarding "dubbing from DVD-R to the hard drive," comparing the Panasonic machines to the Pioneers, I'd just recommend on the Panasonic side that he could just make one of the copies it sounds like he wants to make onto a DVD-RAM disc, and save one of those for each program he might like to "duplicate" down the road. Not taking anything away from the Pioneer's ability to dub from DVD-R to the HDD (only "presuming" it does that with no loss -- has anyone actually had one and tried it??) -- it's just that the Pioneer is a lot more money, isn't it?? Especially, in comparison to just using a couple of DVD-RAM blank discs?

OK, moving on from responding to previous posts, let me toss my own perspective on the issues here:

"How much recording do you plan to do" and "how much time do you think you'll have available to do it" has a lot to do with going computer vs. standalone. Again, if it's gonna take you something along the lines of 10 or 20 times as much time to process whatever video you've got, as it generally does in the computer world, I hope you're not talking about a whole lot more than a couple of dozen pieces of video. Me, I'm one of those "I've got over a thousand VHS tapes," and let me tell you, I could CARE LESS about fancy menus, transitions, and other "eye candy" that will take hours per DVD to create.

One question raised was "well, why do you need to edit those VHS tapes, anyway?" I've got a good answer to that one, which is the same one I've gotten from most anyone who's walked into my house and seen my six six-foot bookshelves stuffed full with around 1,500 videotapes -- "Do you ever actually WATCH any of that stuff?!???" And, my usual answer is "No -- that would take the rest of my life!!" Heck, I don't even know what's ON more than half of those tapes -- way back 20 years ago, I was keeping track of what was on each tape in a little notebook, but that got out of control about 19 and a half years ago. So, at any rate, I am NOT just going to dump all of that stuff onto thousands of DVD-R discs -- I'm going to go through each and every tape, and just grab the really, truly memorable stuff off of those tapes. In other words, "make a highlight reel." Those are all recorded at the "SP" speed, so that's about 3,000 hours of TV programming over the past 20 years, and the vast majority of it is NOT worth saving!! But, boy, I sure can remember some bits and pieces I want to save for posterity!!

So, yes, I'm going to do HEAVY editing. I'm going through tapes, and often I don't save ANYTHING from a lot of tapes. When I do run across something, I just hit the "record" button on my Panasonic DMR-E50 machine, and record it. Then I hit the "pause" button, and go find the next bit worth saving. So, I'm not editing down to the exact frame, to any extent whatsoever. I'm not putting in fancy transitions -- heck, usually, I'm not even worrying about making "separate segments" that show up on the DVD's menu. I keep track of what's on each DVD on a database on my computer, and I'll use that to really know what's on each DVD.

If that's all you need to do with your DVD recording, then an "inexpensive," decent machine like the Panasonic DMR-E50 will get the job done for you, in spades. If you want to get fancier than that, say perhaps to indeed "edit to the frame," and perhaps to "save up like bits" to put onto different DVD's, then a hard-drive model like the Panasonic DMR-E80H will let you do that kind of editing. That hard drive will also let you put chapter marks right where you want them for the resulting DVD. And, you can get fancier with the Panasonic DMR-E100H, and make those "menus with picture thumbnails" that people seem to want so badly they're willing to do this stuff on a computer.

I have mentioned the Panasonic machines because I'm familiar with them -- of course, there are other machines from other companies that have some mix of equivalent capabilities.

As for the time it takes to do a DVD on one of these standalones, you're generally just spending a few minutes to have the machine "finalize" a DVD-R disc. And, you can spend a little time entering names for your discs and menu items, but that won't take you hours and hours and hours.

And, as for picture quality, I was never, ever able to produce a DVD with my computer that achieved anything better than what I would call "slowest speed VHS quality" -- probably the result of all of the encoding and re-encoding and often even extra encoding of the video when the authoring program actually produced the DVD. And, I didn't just play with the cheapie "home" tools, either -- I tried those, yes, but I also tried TMPEG, Canopus, Cinema Craft, and so on. If you can make "better than standalone DVD recorder quality," then wonderful. My bet is that most folks will find the results of their standalone DVD recorder DVD's to be absolutely OUTSTANDING. Just get your hands on one and try a recording at its best quality, and I just can't see anyone being disappointed with that, at least if you're talking about the "better" brands.

I hope that helps add a little perspective to the discussion. I was frustrated to the point just short of tossing my computer out into the street when I was trying to do it that way, and I have been absolutely ECSTATIC with the quality and the process of doing these on my Panasonic stand-alones.

thoots

thoots, I Totally AGREE with you ! I have a huge shelf with over 3.000 VHS tapes I have been recording in the SP mode since 1981 and I bought the Panasonic DMR-E50 to transfer these tapes to DVD. Like you, I will only be transferring to DVD the stuff I really care about. Also, many TV shows I recorded back then, have come out on DVD now and I'll be buying the original DVDs instead of transferring my less than perfect TV image quality. As for Menu editing, I simply hit the stop button when a show is over and I hit the REC button when the next stuff I want to record comes on. Or I use the pause button when I know where to find the next thing I want to transfer to disc. When the disc is full, I play each chapter and I name each one. Then in the end before finalizing the disc I enter a name for it. After that I can easily find the scene or the show I want by just looking at the Menu I created with the recorder !

I would never spend hours encoding on a PC. A friend of mine that has the latest ATI AIW capture Card (BTW I love the ATI AIW cards), made a capture from a VHS tape and from an original DVD and burned them to 2 DVDs on his PC. Then he brought the same VHS and the same DVD and we transferred it to two DVDs with my DMR-E50. Hours later he called me to say he needs to buy a standalone DVD recorder because the quality of both the VHS and the DVD discs made on my standalone recorder was much better than the ones he captured via the PC. I haven't seen the 4 discs yet, but I am sure he knows what he is saying, because he has been doing video capture with the ATI AIW family cards for several years now.

Although I loved when I had a ATI AIW card, I am much happier with my standalone recorder!

I think the BEST choice would be to buy a Standalone DVD Recorder that has a HD like the new Panasonic ones. That way you can transfer to the recorder's HD the VHS tape (or whatever) and edit (mark) the scenes you wish to record on DVD-R BEFORE you actually burn the disc ! I sure will be saving money to buy the Panasonic with HD someday, meanwhile I watch my old VHS tapes and take notes of the counter numbers on my VCR so I can easily find the scenes I want to tranfer to disc.