Which method of capturing is better? DV or 9700AIW pro

[rhegedus]

For USA, NTSC, the 9700 and 9800 AIW cards are unbeatable in the sub-$1000 level.

Quite a few capture card users say otherwise:

Top User Rated Capture Cards

[lordsmurf]

For USA, NTSC, the 9700 and 9800 AIW cards are unbeatable in the sub-$1000 level.

Quite a few capture card users say otherwise:

Top User Rated Capture Cards

Take the reviews on this site with a grain of salt. It's just like college grades or an eBay rating. You can have a LOT of top reviews, but it only takes 1 bad one to knock the entire thing down a full peg.

So what you see on ATI reviews is lots of 8-10 rating, then some clown gives a 1 because he/she couldn't install it, as if it were the cards fault the user has a uncooperative computer system.

Some boxes like the Canopus ADVC get top reviews because it's monkey-proof on setup, not really because it's bad.

Plus you hear more from people when they're unhappy than when they're pleased.

[rhegedus]

Take the reviews on this site with a grain of salt. It's just like college grades or an eBay rating. You can have a LOT of top reviews, but it only takes 1 bad one to knock the entire thing down a full peg.

Quite a lot of the hardware I've purchased in the past year has been due to the recommendations of people on this site. I trust them more than a magazine article or a piece of advertising.

So what you see on ATI reviews is lots of 8-10 rating, then some clown gives a 1 because he/she couldn't install it, as if it were the cards fault the user has a uncooperative computer system.

If there are lots of 8-10 ratings and one 1 rating, then the average rating won't differ that much.

Some boxes like the Canopus ADVC get top reviews because it's monkey-proof on setup, not really because it's bad.

The Canopus gets good ratings because it is easy to set up and because it is good. I don't think people would be as eager to give high marks for a good setup with poor performance.

Plus you hear more from people when they're unhappy than when they're pleased.

See all of the above.

[SatStorm]

@taz291819

Canadians are Canadians and Mexicans are Mexicans
USA citizens are simply "Americans" by tradition.

But USA and Canadians together are N. Americans
Officially, this area of the world, is North America.
Mexico is Central America, and all the south America is also known as Latin America. This is how we call them in my country, if I'm wrong correct me.

It is also the only polite way for not making Canadians piss off.
Tell any Canadian simply "American" and watch the results! But call all of them "North Americans" is OK.
This simply thing was my political lesson no1 when I entered internet forums in mid 90s....

[Will Hay]

insofar as

I gotta check my dictionary.... is that really one word?

Yup, it is where I come from
Will

[Will Hay]

Will Hay, you really suprise me sometimes

I'm in my 322nd day of good mood's so far this year, so I'll take that as a positive
Please, don't spoil it
Will

[Will Hay]

WillHay, I don't see the relevance what-so-ever.

okay
Will

[rhegedus]

I'm in my 322nd day of good mood's so far this year, so I'll take that as a positive
Please, don't spoil it

With Leeds playing the way they are?

[Will Hay]

I'm in my 322nd day of good mood's so far this year, so I'll take that as a positive
Please, don't spoil it

With Leeds playing the way they are?

321st
Actually, **** 'em.
If the sell Smithy I'll be on my way.
Will

[rhegedus]

If the sell Smithy I'll be on my way.
Will

Eyeing up a Man Utd top, are you?

[Will Hay]

If the sell Smithy I'll be on my way.
Will

Eyeing up a Man Utd top, are you?

**** off, how dare you
Anyway, are you trying to get my a yellow for hijacking?
Piss off
W.

[rhegedus]

[taz291819]

For you folks that prefer the DV route, in your opinion, what's the best DV Camcorder that allows pass-through. Sub-$500 at that. And higher the resolution, the better. I've seen some nice prices on Canons and JVCs lately, just don't know how well they hold up.

[Will Hay]

For you folks that prefer the DV route, in your opinion, what's the best DV Camcorder that allows pass-through. Sub-$500 at that. And higher the resolution, the better. I've seen some nice prices on Canons and JVCs lately, just don't know how well they hold up.

This topic hijacking is catching
That question is far too objective; how many of us have the chance to thoroughly test three or four DV camcorders?
Mine is the best otherwise I wouldn't have bought it, obviously
Suggest a google search.
Good luck
Will

[Blkout]

Well, I feel qualified to answer here since I've owned both. I had a Radeon 9700 Pro All In Wonder and was happy with my captures, but I kept reading on this forum how superior the Canopus ADVC-100 was so I figured I would give it a try, BIG MISTAKE! After spending almost two weeks with the Canopus trying different software and such, I absolutely could not get the compression noise out of my final encode without using an extreme setting on the noise filter which only blurred the Hell out of my final image. As far as dropped frames, the Canopus does an excellent job, but then again I never had a problem with my ATI either. Regardless of what anyone here tells you, DV is a lossy codec, maybe everyone will not be able to see the compression artifacts but I noticed it right away. I have NO compression artifacts when using an All In Wonder with huffy codec. Needless to say, I sold the Canopus a few weeks ago and I'm back to my ATI again and couldn't be happier. All I can say is that I wouldn't believe everything you read here on this forum because it caused me to doubt my own purchase and buy something else only to find out it was inferior to what I using to start with.

If you figure out what's causing your dropped frames and eliminate the problem, you will ALWAYS have a better capture with an ATI card compared to anything using DV. Common sense should tell anyone here that when DV compresses at such a high ratio, there is going to be some loss, I bought the Canopus hoping it would not be noticeable, but its plain as day to my eyes.

[Blkout]

DV all the way!

DV does a transfer to PC not a Capture, so it is loseless.
Captures, are not loseless.

About ATI Cards, here are 8 reasons why most non Americans dislake them


1. ATI has always issues with Via Chipsets. So if you have a via chipset, don't buy them
2. ATI doesn't like AMD processors. So, if you have an Athlon, Athlon XP or Duron, better choose other products, not ATI chips based
3. ATI is legendary for non supporting users. Email them and if you have a Canadian or N. American I.P., one day they may answer you. On all other cases, you wasting your time. To be fair, ATI Deutschland has some support, but only if you write them in German and have a German IP address...
4. ATI never updates the drivers of a 18 months product. ATI 's strategy is to force users change cards each time they update their OS. So, when you buy an ATI product, prepare to change it soon or later.
5. All ATI products, are optimised for NTSC use. The PAL / SECAM users have a "wrap" like use of those products, meaning you don't get the 100% of PAL / SECAM with ATI cards. Also, ATI has a bad history background with PAL, since plenty of ATI's earlier products, never had valid/ correct drivers for PAL capture. The use of third party solutions simply don't work always.
6. ATI believes that the global market is everywhere like USA. That means that they testing their products only on Dell's, HP's and Compaq's ready OEM PCs, the most popular PC market in USA. Unfortunately, on most Europe and Asia, people built their own PCs. On half cases, ATI appears always issues at first, corrected later with driver updates. The bottom like is, if you wish to buy an ATI card, and you own a PC built by you, better choose at least 6 month old products, which the issues with hardware platforms are mostly solved. Then again, buying a 6 month card from ATI simply means that this card gonna have a very limited future support ...
7. ATI doesn't like active users. The late Catalyst 3.8 drivers, reported that they burn (yes burn!) the ATI cards, because they rise the temperature about 10 Celsius Degree ! So if you have a PC with 2 - 3 HDs, 3 - 4 PCI cards, a DVD and a DVD burner, in any typical ATX box with a big 400W supplier (or 2 suppliers, very common those days especially for our hobby, video processing), then for using ATI cards you have to invest to water cooling systems, costing the price of your audio card?.
8. Overclocking anything and have an ATI card inside a PC is like playing the Death Roulette?

I hope I was usefull

No offense but half of the information you posted here in this post is either clearly wrong, or just ignorant. I really think you need to do some more research if you actually believe everything you just posted, otherwise I'm inclined to think you know better but you are just extremely biased and trying to push DV over ATI.

[rhegedus]

@Blkout

Just what software issues were you having that caused you to give up on your Canopus? - you just plug in and capture, then let TMPGEnc take care of the encoding.

[Blkout]

@Blkout

Just what software issues were you having that caused you to give up on your Canopus? - you just plug in and capture, then let TMPGEnc take care of the encoding.

No software issues, it was very easy to use, didn't like the compression artifacts.

[rhegedus]

What was your source?

[Blkout]

What was your source?

Tried VHS and direct from cable. Both had compression noise that I don't see with the ATI.

[rhegedus]

Wierd - I've captured from both sources and haven't noticed any noise from either.

Do you still have some of the captured video - any chance of a screenshot?

[Blkout]

Wierd - I've captured from both sources and haven't noticed any noise from either.

Do you still have some of the captured video - any chance of a screenshot?

Unfortunately, I don't. I even thought the card might have been defective so I ordered another, same thing though. So I sold them both.

Just curious, what resolution are you encoding at? I encode at full D1 resolution. I wonder if that makes a difference in what's visible or not.

[Craig Tucker]

ATI capture cards are fine IMHO although they can take a bit of setting up to start with. The primary concern on whether to use an ATI card or a firewire card is your source. If you are capturing an analogue signal then use the ATI card. But if your source is DV, then definately use a firewire card to transfer the DV to your hard drive. As mentioned before the key word here is transfer, you want to transfer your DV with no loss, not make a lossy analogue capture of a digital source.

[trevlac]

the 9th, which is questionable: ATI captures only to 704 x 480 and then always resize to any resolution, including the native PAL one, 704 x 576! Yes, choose ATI and "enjoy" the results of a fast on the fly resizing from NTSC if you use PAL.

I don't think this is true. I think cards that allow more than 1 capture resolution capture either at ?x576 or ?x480. For ATI that would be 704x480 or 704x576. This is then horizontally resized to what your app asked for. Like 720. The vertical is only decimated to numbers like 240 or 288. A vertical resize from 480 to 576 would really f*with the interlace. You'd notice.

You can read the specs for most of the chips used in consumer analog capture from this link: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59013

ATI of course does not publish these specs.

[SatStorm]

@Blkout
"No offense but half of the information you posted here in this post is either clearly wrong, or just ignorant."
Prove or state your points with facts....

"I really think you need to do some more research if you actually believe everything you just posted, otherwise I'm inclined to think you know better but you are just extremely biased and trying to push DV over ATI"

The analyse I already gave in this topic, covers my part.
Why you don't analyse your points same way, than just through unjustified something?

And yes you have right! Last night I was talking with Pinky, now I've manage to take over the world, I have the power to push DV....

[Blkout]

@Blkout
"No offense but half of the information you posted here in this post is either clearly wrong, or just ignorant."
Prove or state your points with facts....

"I really think you need to do some more research if you actually believe everything you just posted, otherwise I'm inclined to think you know better but you are just extremely biased and trying to push DV over ATI"

The analyse I already gave in this topic, covers my part.
Why you don't analyse your points same way, than just through unjustified something?

And yes you have right! Last night I was talking with Pinky, now I've manage to take over the world, I have the power to push DV....

OK then..........


1. ATI may have had some issues with VIA chispets in the past, but I seriously doubt you'll find any problems with ATI's current products. I know quite a few people running ATI cards with VIA chipsets with no problems.

2. ATI has no problems with AMD CPU's, I have two PC's setup at home, both capable of video transfers, both use ATI AIW cards and one is a P4, the other is an AMD XP, no problems with either.

3. ATI's customer support it top notch right now, you may be speaking of the past, but in the last two years, they have really got their act together.

4. ATI has been on a steady driver release program of every month for the last year, yep, new drivers every month.

5. Don't know about the NTSC vs PAL issue since I only use NTSC. If its problem for PAL users, I can at least see your point there.

6. ATI has better driver support than Nvidia, and has for the last two years, its Nvidia that keeps dropping the ball, again I think you are referring to the OLD ATI. ATI's drivers are fast and stable.

7. The burning of the video card is a non issue, it was a rumor started by some jackass on the internet, ATI's spokespeople posted on the forums and asked for anyone who was having this problem to let them know and no one came forth. ATI could not duplicate the problem in their labs either. It was an isolated case that simply got turned into an epedimic on the internet. I used the Cat 3.8's with no problems whatsoever on both of my ATI cards.

8. Both of my PC's are overclocked and run fantastic with ATI cards, again, I have no clue what you're talking about.




Seriously bro, I read the forums here much more than I post, and I respect your opinions, in fact I have learned a few things in the past from you on this forum, but your opinion on ATI is clearly biased or you are just speaking of past issues. ATI has none of the issues you listed above in the last two years, ATI's driver and quality programs are far better than any other maker out there right now. Just do some research before you makes comments like these, that's all.

[Blkout]

ATI capture cards are fine IMHO although they can take a bit of setting up to start with. The primary concern on whether to use an ATI card or a firewire card is your source. If you are capturing an analogue signal then use the ATI card. But if your source is DV, then definately use a firewire card to transfer the DV to your hard drive. As mentioned before the key word here is transfer, you want to transfer your DV with no loss, not make a lossy analogue capture of a digital source.

I see your point, all my transfers were analog so they were not too hot with the Canopus, maybe it works better with DV transfers. ATI works for my analog transfers flawlessly.

[rhegedus]

Just curious, what resolution are you encoding at? I encode at full D1 resolution. I wonder if that makes a difference in what's visible or not.

Depends on the quality of the original: sometimes D1, sometimes half D1. Always VBR, never below 3000kbps. If the source is good an has lot's of action scenes then I don't have a problem with doubling the bitrate - it's worth it.

Here's a good thread on VHS to DVD bitrates:

Hi8/VHS to DVD: which bitrate do you recommend?

[lordsmurf]

And yes you have right! Last night I was talking with Pinky, now I've manage to take over the world, .

Excellent!

So what's are we going to do tonight Brain?

[onetrueday]

blah, blah, blah.

I've owned the following ati video cards:

allinwonder 32meg pci
radeon 64ddr vivo
radeon8500
radeon 9500np
radeon 9500pro
2 radeon 9800 np's
radeon 9800pro aiw
radeon 9600pro
radeon 9600pro aiw

I'm currently using the 9600pro aiw.

I've owned and used the following capture solutions:
jvc 920u minidv
sony trv22
sony trv33
canopus advc1394
dazzle hollywoodDV
canon dr60 miniDV

So, what give the best quality? A miniDV camcorder does. I've even captured, encoded and authored DVD's with multiple sources of the same material, to compare. The miniDV's won by a slim margin.

I'm currently using both a 9600pro aiw and a canon miniDV for my capturing needs. My 9600pro is hooked up to my TIVO and a VCR. My canon is hooked up to a VCR and a sony analog camcorder.

I often capture from BOTH SOURCES at the same time. I'll capture to mpeg1 from the TIVO using the AIW and I'll capture to mpeg2 from the VCR through the canon dr60. Those solutions serve my needs.

I never have ANY FRAME LOSS. I've even encoded using tmpgenc another avi file, captured a DVD AND captured from both sources... still no frame loss.

This garbage about the ati cards sucking is RUBBISH. The ONLY card I had trouble with was the 9500 non-pro. I had freezing problems, for which I later learned the solution anyway. However, I had already sold it. plus the drivers for the radeon64ddr and the 8500 were subpar.

So, having used so many possible capture solutions, I feel I am the only one with the proper authority to give reliable feedback.

MiniDV's are the best way to go. (the advc100 is a VERY CLOSE second. The advc1394 is based on the same technology and it's quality was a TINY bit below my miniDV.)