Why Backup?

[MackemX]

@Savant

let's look at what you imply when you talk about majorities and not percentages just yet

#1. I think the percentage of people who 'back up' DVDs for personal use is but a FRACTION of the total of those who copy DVDs.
#2. I have said that the majority of people who burn copies of DVDs OVERALL do not own the original DVD and are not making a 'backup'
#3. Do people on this board use the information here to assist them in pirating DVDs? Of course they do.

now, in #1 you state the fraction of people performing backups is a FRACTION, not 49%. Although you do not specify an amount a fraction is a very small amount when used in that context. Therefore you are saying a MAJORITY as quoted in number #2 is actually quite a large one and not 51%. If you did mean anywhere near 51% then I cannot understand why you have gone to such extreme lengths to backup your opinions. You cannot now claim you actually mean 51% as you would be laughed off this forum

put #1 and #2 together and you get the following :

you feel that smaller fraction of people burning DVD's are actually making a legitimate backup as you have stated that the majority don't. Therefore labelling the majority as pirates. The way you have used fraction along with your strong views on the subject imply that it's quite a large majority. Someone not making a legitimate backup for something other than personal use is therefore a pirate. There is no arguing with the word pirate here and what you mean by it even if you have never said the word pirate

now what's even funnier is #3

people using info here would be classed as being a pirate if they used it in a form other than for legitimate backups. You feel the majority of users burning DVD's are pirates as shown above so basically you are saying the majority f users here are pirates. I couldn't give a crap if you ain't said it directly as you are implying it indirectly by your statements. that's why I said it's better you choose your words wisely as you do not seem to realise what you are saying. Most here create DVD backups legal or not but you cannot prove whether they are legal or not but your statements imply that you feel that the majority here are which is a strog accusation to make when you cannot prove it, if only in a few cases where the user admits it. How many users are there in this forum so the odd few who admit are a fraction of the members here

I could go on and on and quote more but there just isn't enough time in the day and I think the above is clear to most as to what you mean, even if you still don't see it. It's what the MAJORITY will think by your stating you opinions that matters

now finally let's clear this up once and for all

Tell me and the rest of your forum, what is your rough percentage value of people that are not creating legitimate backups in the world? Bearing in mind that this forum is specifically all about DVD backups and therefore probably relates to every user who has used this DVDBackup forum

I would like a vaule on this word majority. It does not have to be a specific value, even a range but you must have a figure as you feel so strongly about it to go to the lengths you have to make the points
please refrain from quoting or posting links to 'official' evidence as to what anyone else says as I will believe the figure you yourself feel and not some white collar. It's your opinion I am asking for not 'official' estimated figures

I simple want to know (as well a quite a few others if I'm not mistaken) what YOU think the percentage is worldwide of people who are not creating legitimate backups when burning only DVD's (not CD's)

I look forward to your reply and I ask the mods to please refrain from locking this thread (if it ever needs to be of course) till we see a value as I'm pretty sure most here would like to see what value Savant means when he says MAJORITY

this will then make me and probably quite a few others know what Savant actually means when he uses the word majority and maybe this thread can go back to why people make backups and not whether it's a legal backup or not

cheers

[MackemX]

Lets be honest. I havnt 'backed up' a single original DVD I own. Whats the point ?... BUT I have copied 100s of DVDs I cant be arsed to pay £15 for. Am I bad.

yes, that's one of the reasons they are £15 in the first place

what amount would you feel is fair that would you pay to buy them?

most media is overpriced, we all agree on that but this is one of the reasons why. I always wonder of they would sell 10 times as as many DVD's if they priced them a lot lower. That's if it was possible as I know it costs more to process a commercial DVD than a backup

but why not sell very basic version of DVD's, do we really need all the fancy packaging to buy and watch a DVD?. Why not just create movie only DVD's as it's pretty obvious a few people make movie only backups

in the end though I can't believe you actually admit it but then ask if you are bad

it's the honest customer that end's up paying part of the price for your actions

[spiderman2k1]

Many DVD's are out of print and you can not buy them any more. That's why there DVDRHELP. Little kid's break there disney DVD another reason to back up. Some people like to back up movies only like me. I do not have to wait two monutes to look at all the extra crap like menu's and logo's.

[Jimmykicker]

I simple want to know (as well a quite a few others if I'm not mistaken) what YOU think the percentage is worldwide of people who are not creating legitimate backups when burning only DVD's (not CD's)

I think someone should post a poll on this subject -- would be interesting to see the results of what people think...

[MackemX]

I think someone should post a poll on this subject -- would be interesting to see the results of what people think...

I agree also and I would still like to see Savant's percentage as a figure even if in a range

e.g. 40%-50%

[Savant]

IvIark wrote:

Savant wrote:
It's a thousand (no 's') but I do not own the copyrights for them. I don't need to own the copyright to copy them for personal use since in Canada we have a law that specifically allows me to do so.

Oh so it's a legal issue then? The reason I ask is because previously you've said it was the principle of the thing. Do your principles of intellectual copyright become null and void if it's not illegal?

I think you're trying to oversimplify the issue here. My personal principles dictate that I do not have the right to take that which does not belong to me, or that which I do not have permission to have. In the case of copyright infringement, I don't have a problem with people copying material they own ***IF*** the copyright holder is being compensated for it. In Canada, copyright holders all share in the pool of levies collected on the sale of blank CDs. I do not support P2P 'sharing' of copyrighted tracks (that the author doesn't want shared) and related endeavors since they do not compensate the copyright holder.

Once a suitable agreement is made for the private copying of DVD media in Canada, then I would consider that acceptable to do here too. I feel that any solution must properly compensate the copyright holder in some way.

bugster wrote:

If the MAJORITY (and you seem to like that word) dislike a law enough to feel it can or should be ignored, then the law is innefective and should be repealed. After all that is what the electorate wants, its just the politcians are too afraid of losing big industry finances to listen to the people in the 1st place!

I disagree. I think the problem is that people just sit on their butts and think they can't do anything about it.

Look at California. The governor didn't listen to the people and did a lousy job. He raised the car tax and pissed people off. Now one might say "well I disagree with the car tax so I'm going to break the law and evade the tax." Regardless of the sentiment, that would be illegal. Instead, one person said "I'm going to try and change this" and started a movement to have the governor removed. IT WORKED. He is gone. Do you think Arnold is going to be attentive to the people or to 'big business'?

Big business may contribute to the government, but it's the PEOPLE who call the shots on who is elected. Never forget that. The recall in California was a wake up call to politicians across America to let them know the American people will NOT let themselves be taken advantage of.

What if I 'copy' a DVD that I have purchased and then give that copy to a friend. A friend who would not have bought that DVD anyway, whose rights am I violating there? No sales have been lost, so no money due to the artists, producers, or big business backers is lost.

Rights are not money based alone.

What if someone 'borrowed' a copy of a movie that a friend of theirs personally made and then made a copy of it? Now the person who made the original made the movie had no intention of selling it so you could argue what you have said above: "No sales have been lost, so no money due to the artists, producers, or big business backers is lost." Right? I disagree.

Just because the person is not out any money, doesn't mean their rights haven't been violated. A person who has copyright to an item has the RIGHT to decide how they want to distribute it. If they don't want to give it away (for free or otherwise) then I feel they should have that right.

MackemX wrote:

I simple want to know (as well a quite a few others if I'm not mistaken) what YOU think the percentage is worldwide of people who are not creating legitimate backups when burning only DVD's

OK, you want numbers? (I feel like Jack Nicholson here.... ' You want numbers? You can't handle the numbers! ' )

Seriously though, ok...

In MY opinion, based soley on my experience and what I have read, I would estimate as follows...

Define the applicable content:
-Content could have been shown in a theatre at some time
-Content could have been broadcast on TV and is now commercially sold
-Content could have been produced and made available in DVD format
-Content could have been produced and made available in another video format
-Content has not been released to the public domain or otherwise granted free use by the copyright holder

Define the types of 'copies' or 'back-ups':
-Downloads of movies off the net in any format (like DivX) are included
-DVDs made from video content that employs any kind of scrambling system to prevent viewing are included
-Copies of DVDs that are rentals are included
-Copies of DVDs that are made and then sold are included
-Original DVDs that are copied and then sold (while keeping the copy) are included

My Estimate: I would say that 2/3 to 3/4 of all DVD 'copies' made are not legitmate. (66%-75%) I should mention that I feel this is a conservative estimate, but still represents a solid 'majority'. I hope this satisfies your interest.

I look forward to your reply and I ask the mods to please refrain from locking this thread

Actually the mods have been pretty good about letting us debate this topic. As I think you can see, so long as people keep the debate civil, there is nothing wrong with a little healthy debate. It helps to keep the sinuses clear.

Regards,

Savant

[MackemX]

In the case of copyright infringement, I don't have a problem with people copying material they own ***IF*** the copyright holder is being compensated for it. In Canada, copyright holders all share in the pool of levies collected on the sale of blank CDs.

Savant you say that now but earlier you stated

Again I will state I am not opposed to people making backups of material they OWN, provided they do not sell or give away the copy or the original

this is the 2nd time you have done this as I raised this confusion earlier

Again I will state I am not opposed to people making backups of material they OWN, provided they do not sell or give away the copy or the original

but then you say this

A person who buys a CD or DVD (software, music or movie) DOES NOT OWN THE DATA CONTENT OF THAT MEDIA. Many people don't realise that. When you buy a DVD you buy the VIEWING RIGHT to watch that movie, you do not buy the right to copy it as you see fit and give it away to anyone you please. That's a right reserved for the copyright holder. Thus the term COPY right. The entity or person that owns the copyright has the RIGHT to determine how it is COPIED

in the first of the two above quotes you agree that people can make backups of their own. In other words copy that CD/DVD then you say the person owning the copyright has the say as to whether it's copied. Which is it?

you say one thing then say something else that contradicts what you have just said

OK, you want numbers? (I feel like Jack Nicholson here.... ' You want numbers? You can't handle the numbers! ' )

Seriously though, ok...

In MY opinion, based soley on my experience and what I have read, I would estimate as follows...

Define the applicable content:
-Content could have been shown in a theatre at some time
-Content could have been broadcast on TV and is now commercially sold
-Content could have been produced and made available in DVD format
-Content could have been produced and made available in another video format
-Content has not been released to the public domain or otherwise granted free use by the copyright holder

Define the types of 'copies' or 'back-ups':
-Downloads of movies off the net in any format (like DivX) are included
-DVDs made from video content that employs any kind of scrambling system to prevent viewing are included
-Copies of DVDs that are rentals are included
-Copies of DVDs that are made and then sold are included
-Original DVDs that are copied and then sold (while keeping the copy) are included

My Estimate: I would say that 2/3 to 3/4 of all DVD 'copies' made are not legitmate. (66%-75%) I should mention that I feel this is a conservative estimate, but still represents a solid 'majority'. I hope this satisfies your interest.

I appreciate your answer but again you amaze me as all I asked for was a simple figure, yet you went to the lengths you did. This is a DVD to DVD-R forum. Basically I wanted your opinion on what percentage of content available in DVD format that are 'copied' and not true 'backup'. A 'backup' is when the backup holder owns the original DVD and a 'copy' is when they don't regardless of whether it is legal or not
A 'copy' cannot really be classed as a 'backup' by the owner as they do not own the original. You could 'backup' a 'copy' but then it would be a copy backup whereas the other would be an 'original' backup. I hope you follow

think about it logically as someone asks for a 'copy' of something if they want something that they don't own, they don't ask for a 'backup'

I would like you to think of 'copies' & 'backups' as I have stated above to avoid confusion as most will agree these are the best definitions

again thanks for your response and if it is still the same range but only judged on the above please say. Just a simple yes or no will suffice and a value if it isn't

let's try to keep the posts small so people will actually read them

this thread is actually quite tame anyway

cheers

[tygrus2000]

There is no way to determine what percentage of dvd copying is for back up purposes and what is for personal use, but just look to similar examples of technology like music downloads etc. Do you think those hundreds of millions of downloads are coming from the legit pay sites? We all know better, so make the same comparison to dvd and you'll have your answer.

[MackemX]

There is no way to determine what percentage of dvd copying is for back up purposes and what is for personal use

I agree, it's impossible but I'm asking Savant to clarify what he thinks it is, not what it actually is

I don't think you can compare illegal download's to DVD's and get the same answer though

[jaxxboss]

LOL. Great posts. we can go forever with this. As far as d/l and burning or renting and burning, well they get away with it by saying they own it and until its proven otherwise then thats the case. Giving a burned copy to a friend is legal because all you are doing is letting him watch it with you at his place. You just havent arrived yet to sit down and watch it. But when you do then that is the case. heck, it may be 50 years until you come over and watch it. Ever stand in line and have a guy tell somebody that they can cut in behind him and in FRONT of you? Now you may say WAIT A GOSH DARN MINUTE! You cant cut in FRONT of me! Well, the guy that was in front of you lets him cut in from of him, then the cut guy turns around and lets his buddy get back in front of him.. ergo, he is now right in front of you! It's a viscious cycle aint it.
By the way, the main question was why are people backking up discs.

[overloaded_ide]

Detroit can (and does in a few cases) make a car that will last 20 years and be rust free. Do they? No again it's self defeating, they want you to replace your car every 5 years, and want that vehicle dead in 7-10 years.

!

If it can be backed up it will be far as I am concerned!
I have a backup for both my 85 T-Bird AND my 88 Ford Van! I did not totally create them myself, I had to buy very cheap parts vehicles, but now they are totally backed up! Hit a Deer, so what I have a new front end in the yard, blow an engine or tranny so what again I got those too!
Actually I have 5 engines for the T-birds, I have a couple other cars with the same engine too!
Now I am not STEALING anything, but if something bad happens I am ready for it! Same with making backups! If my originals get destroyed I would be walking, but I have the means to ether repair or replace it now for a very fraction of the cost. So ok, tell me how that is different from buy tools and disks and saving my DVD's or VHS from destruction!

I have the blank disks (parts) and the software and burner (tools) and a computer (my shop) so I am doing exactly the same thing as with the cars! I bought Parts (DVD-R disks or Junk car) so now I can use my tools (Computer or Craftmans Sockets) and build what ever I want ( A Replacement disk or original disk, or a replacement car or a totall custom)
So other than the fact Ford ain't bitching yet about my "STEALING" a ford T-bird or Van where is there any difference??

One reason I backup my disks is to get rid of comercails! I bought that sucker and NO-ONE has the right to force me to sit through 15 minutes of comercails! This ain't free TV where they sell advertising to pay to broadcasting bills! I BOUGHT a MOVIE not all the Garbage they pushed off on me, and if the stores would take them back after opening them there are several I was so piss off about the comercails on I would have taken them back with out even watching the movie!! But of course to find all the trash they FORCED on me I had to open the package and start playing the disk, then the store says you can exchange for the same title if they disk doesn't work but not get a refund after you open it! What good is an exchange for the same title, won't it have the same trash on it too!!!

[Colindale]

tygrus2000

By the popularity of DVD Burners

??Tell me and the rest of your forum, what is your rough percentage value of people that are not creating legitimate backups in the world???

My guess about 90%, (not a conservative estimate).

Why the Movie makers ever allowed the hire of films, to me was asking for trouble, trying to get rich quick is asking for trouble!.

[MackemX]

By the way, the main question was why are people backking up discs.

Yep, I agree and I've been trying to tie up the loose ends so we could get back on track

has Savant actually stated why he makes CD backups? instead of debating whether it is right or wrong to do so and that the majority are commiting piracy. I'm sure I have asked before

I made backups partly as a hobby but also because I'm prone to accidents one way or another but I don't bother now believe it or not. I only test DVD backup software when I'm bored to keep up my old hobby as I've burned very few DVD's in the last few months. I have quite a few DVD's on my PC and just use it via TV-Out but even buying my purchasing of DVD's has hit a low as I don't want a massive collection

I still have 3 sealed packs of DVD 2X blanks I paid 4 times the price for months ago. I now also take greater care with my DVD's and CD's and once in a while I will blow the dust offa my burner for testing reasons

[MackemX]

If it can be backed up it will be far as I am concerned!
I have a backup for both my 85 T-Bird AND my 88 Ford Van! I did not totally create them myself, I had to buy very cheap parts vehicles, but now they are totally backed up! Hit a Deer, so what I have a new front end in the yard, blow an engine or tranny so what again I got those too!
Actually I have 5 engines for the T-birds, I have a couple other cars with the same engine too!
Now I am not STEALING anything, but if something bad happens I am ready for it!

good point as I have a backup of my car as I have two of them. I know I bought it but I'm still backing it up and boy was I glad. I bought another exact replica as it's a limited edition where only 260 were made 10 years ago and just 4 weeks ago my main car was stolen and I thought I'd seen the last of it but I have got it back and that's another story in itself. Although it's only cosmetic damage I can swap the bits and still have both cars but my main one is still gleaming

to source parts for a 10 year old car where only 260 were made would be quite a hard task but luckily I have a backup

this is not the first time I have done this either as I always buy parts for my cars if I come across them. It always saves you time trying to source out the replacements. If I sell the car I sell the replacements also but I must admit I have a few small spares of years ago I'm just too lazy to advertise

I guess my point is that some DVD's are actually worth backing up as they ain't easily replaced after a certain time

[Savant]

MackemX wrote:

has Savant actually stated why he makes CD backups?

I hadn't stated anything more, but I don't actually make back-ups of my CDs. What I did was rip the tunes to my hard drive so that I can play music on the computer without needing to swap in discs. Since the bit rate of the tunes is LESS than that of the original discs, they are not backups snce I would not be able to restore the original quality.

Anyway, I agree, I think we're ringed all we can from this aspect of the topic. Why don't we explore something along the same lines...

The new EVD format has been announced in China, and I think we will likely see it hit the shores around the world in the next year or so. Since it offers more space and better resolution, I'm sure people will be itching to get their hands on it.

A computer EVD drive has not been planned, but even if it had been, the EVD system uses a NEW form of copy protection that is far stronger than DVD. Thus, people are back to the situation where they can not backup the discs.

So what do people do? Do you ignore the new and better technology because you can't make copies, or do you become more judicious and protective of your EVDs and make sure they don't get damaged?

Regards,

Savant

[MackemX]

Since the bit rate of the tunes is LESS than that of the original discs, they are not backups snce I would not be able to restore the original quality.

lol , I'm sure someone mentioned that a DVD9 to DVD5 isn't a true backup either but why does everything have to be so specific all the time?

what do you wish to call them then? as they are neither backups nor copies. Backups are obvious, you have the original and you have an exact replica, therefore you can replace the original if required. I class copies as something that you now have where you no longer own the orginal from which the initial backup was taken. I guess we could call them inferior quality backups, what do you think as I think you just like playing definition twists. I guess I'm asking you what you would call a 1:1 backup and what you would call backups of inferior quality

What I did was rip the tunes to my hard drive so that I can play music on the computer without needing to swap in discs

anyway again your posts are a little misleading as I just keep getting the wrog impression from your posts. Seeing as this thread is all about making backups, this is what I based it on

The majority of people who visit this forum likely also burn their own music CDs but that doesn't mean I think they are all pirates.
I probably have a 1000 MP3s but they are all from CDs I own. I don't download MP3s at all

why not say you have them on your PC and save me the trouble of assuming you are burning them?

even so, what you say is irrelevant as you are still copying/backing up, (in fact call it whatever you want as no matter what I say you will twist it) by using your PC. You are doing it so it's more convenient for you (I am assuming this is what you mean). So assuming this what's the real difference in what you do to someone making a backup of a DVD so it's more convenient for them albeit to prevent wear/tear/damage etc?. People have DVD's on their PC's too as well as laptop's so does this make it OK?

also what is your interpretation of the words 'backup' and 'copy'?. Please keep it small

[MOVIEGEEK]

Savant wrote:"Big business may contribute to the government, but it's the PEOPLE who call the shots on who is elected. Never forget that. The recall in California was a wake up call to politicians across America to let them know the American people will NOT let themselves be taken advantage of."

I agree with you on that.

And the debate continues....

[overloaded_ide]

Another thng on backing up,

As with movies you are buying cd's and DVD's, once you own them you should have the right to listen to them as you choose, the reason you bought them right!!

So if a CD has 2 good songs I like and 10 garbage ones I hate, or as is often the case 2-4new songs and a rehash of 8-10 I already have (several times!) then why should I have to carry the same songs around 5 times just so I can listen to a few good ones I want? Yea, I ripp the cd's I buy, then remove the garbage songs I don't want, then add in more songs from some other Cd I also bought and then I have 1 CD I made myself that has the songs I want but not the trash I don't want! Now I can listen to my music the way I want to, I bought it and I have that right! I don't care who argues what, I bought it, I did not steal it and I do have the right to listen to it!
As I mentioned about comercails on DVDs, same thing! Why should I PAY to be forced to watch advertisments for garbage I do not want! Or even worse, you have any Idea how many DVD's and VHS I have that advertise movies I already bought! Ok, I own those too! NOW just why am I supposed to be required to watch the advertisements for something I own and will not buy again just so I can sometime get to the movie I do want to watch! I have at least 4 movies that advertise the same movies, and I already own those movies too! WHY??
I pop in a movie that is what I want to watch, the movie! If I want to watch Lion King I already own that so I would put that in the player instead, so why should I watch the advertisement for it?? Are they hoping I will change my mind and not watch this movie but will put in the other one instead?? It is that type crap that I stopped buying so many new DVD's! But now that I can cut that out or atleast restore the ability to jump past them I have bought a few more DVD's.

Personally I like the old stuff better anyway, so I am mostly backing up my VHS to DVD. This makes it easier to watch (only need one player) easier to take movies with me when I travel (takes less room) and also I can watch those on DVD players or computers. Some of my tapes are going bad, so I now don't have to worry about them. I pack the tapes safely away and hope for the best, less dust less moisture, less chance of them going bad or being eaten by a player.

Yes I have backed up my tapes in the past also, before though there has always been a loss of quality tape to tape, not a problem now. I also have done the same thing with my Casette tapes in the past as I do with my CDs, record the songs I want to one tape and do away with the ones I don't want. Also a loss of quality though!
As for backing up DVDs or tapes though, call it anything you want, but the fact is when they cost less people like me buy extras, when they cost $20 we make are own!!

I have "Elvira Mistress of the Dark" on VHS, I was lucky when I found it, the first time and bought it! Then I found another copy brand new and bought it also, only $4 so why back it up tape to tape, I backed it up buying a second copy retail!! I also have a DVD backup of the movie I made myself! One tape is going bad already, and the other was never opened yet (still), Now I own 2 retail copies I bought of the exact same movie so just how much of a thief am I for making a backup of one of them, and it is going bad already!! The tape, not the backup. If I could find it on DVD I would probably buy that too, but I have the movie already so I ain't going to any trouble looking for a DVD. But I find it for $5 I will buy it!

I been buying alot of $5 DVDs lattely, I like old movies the best and been buying alot of wallmart $5 specails. Why back those up to DVD-r?? Well if it is something I really like and only found one copy of it then I make a backup, if there are alot of them available for $5 then I just go buy a second copy of the real thing.

No way in hell I am going to pay $20 for Two Towers then go buy a second copy of Two Towers for another $20!!! So I back that up to a DVD-r.
Either way I have a backup copy. I am happy with either, real or copy, and I won't buy the same movie mre than once very often and never for more than $5 unless I expect it to go up in value. If I buy for collectable value then it's not a backup anyway, it's an un-used investment! I don't open those!

I have 5 Collector Edition Snow Whites, one opened to backup, and a backup to watch! I bought 6 of these, so yea right I am a real big thief making one backup to watch while 6 sit on a shelf untouched!! I mean dam I paid $120 plus sales tax and I have one lousy backup I watch (actually the kid watches it).

Mostly I make Original content DVD's like VHS home movies to DVD for friends, or like the play a non-profit theatre group did, I recorded it free and made DVDs for them Free so the cast can own their own performance and watch themselfs. I even paid for all the tapes (some don't have DVD players) and disks myself.

I am also working on my own DVD I will sell latter if I can get it done someday.

But in the mean time I DO backup DVDs I want to keep safe after I buy them!

And yes, I have had lots of CDs over the years get ruined for various reasons including trays closing when they should not and scratching the disk badly. That's both Audio and Software cd's! I see no reason to NOT expect the same thing to happen to DVDs. Do YOU think they are exempt from the same type damage as Cds? I don't!

The strangest things can happen sometimes too. Look for my post about spraying raid on a CD Ya, you can destroy a disk just by spraying raid flea killer on it by accident!

Personnaly all the suggestions and talk about stealing pirating or whatever I feel is dumb anyway. SO WHAT! Shoplifters steall from wallmart everyday, I don't see anyone making a big deal out of that! What are they supposed to do, shut down the store to stop the thiefs??
Percentage?? Fraction? Yea, a fraction or percent are shoplifters too!!

What about car thiefs?? Ok, yea I admit I carry a coat hanger in my vehicles! I can get into most cars easily. About a week ago I was wishing everyone had hangers in their cars too since I locked my keys in my van that day and it took me about 45-1hr to find some-one to borrow one from where I was. Finally a clothing store opened and I borrowed one from them! It was earlier in the morning
I could not get to mine since it was locked in the van with the keys
But hey, if it had been someone else I could have helped them although I could not help myself! First time in years I locked in my keys, but hey it happens often, just not to me I have many friends that have done it, sometimes often!
So does that make me a auto thief because I could steal anything anytime if I wanted? Starting most cars is even easier than getting in them! And locking colunms are nothing but a joke !!

So no, just because we do things does not make us thiefs or illegal. I broke into my van with a coat hanger, same day I backed up a new DVD I bought

Oh, and I just bought 100 DVDs of old movies last week wholesale for myself, does that also make me a thief? I did not pay Wall-mart thier profit on those disks
Maybe when I back up the few rare moives I got, then would that make me a thief? Some of those movies I had not seen in any form for years, and of course then was only VHS or Beta! I got lucky, but if the Disks get ruined, think I could ever find them again? Out of production movies!
I did not know some of these were ever even on DVD, never saw them before, so I am sure I will never find them again! But I did look on a Wholesale distributors website, and they were produced once on DVD legally though no longer available!

[lordsmurf]

If the movie industry had come to the same ridiculous conclusion that most of you have, the naysayers that ignorantly believe backing up is merely theft by another name, please answer me this: If that is true, why did the members of the DVD Forum, approve the format?

Before giving an answer, scan over the member list:
http://www.dvdforum.com/about-memberlist.htm
Notice that almost every single movie studio or corporate owner is a member.

Don't you think they thought of that? And came to the conclusion that they'd make money anyway, regardless of copyright breach, what little exists. Yes, copyright infringed sources are still a small single-digit portion of total distribution. And claims of "loss" are often suspect, as they use punitive maximums rather than true value, and then yet again, ignore the fact that many-to-most bootleggers wouldn't have bought it to begin with (thus no real loss occurred).

Again, this isn't a debate, it's a zoo. You can find this Smurf in the mushroom patch near the monkey cages. I can smell the monkeys from here.

[IvIark]

Savant wrote:

I think you're trying to oversimplify the issue here. My personal principles dictate that I do not have the right to take that which does not belong to me, or that which I do not have permission to have. In the case of copyright infringement, I don't have a problem with people copying material they own ***IF*** the copyright holder is being compensated for it. In Canada, copyright holders all share in the pool of levies collected on the sale of blank CDs.

LOL, so you back them up because you CAN then?! One of your first posts said:

If your child took a toy or or other object and destroyed it, what would happen? Can you make a 'backup' of hot wheels car that gets flushed? Of course not.

That's where teaching a child to be responsible comes in. Now I am in NO way questioning your parenting skills, I'm just saying that there are many things in your home that can be broken by the kids that you can't "back up"...

You also said:

In life there are consequences to actions. Don't want to lose something? Then either protect it, be careful with it or insure it. Teach kids that things COST MONEY and they need to treat them carefully or they will be deprived of them.

I don't think I've ever been involved in a more hypocritical conversation. It's like being told by a shoplifter not to burgle.

Mark

[IvIark]

overloaded_ide wrote:

As I mentioned about comercails on DVDs, same thing! Why should I PAY to be forced to watch advertisments for garbage I do not want!

I was just going to make this exact same point. I have a number of DVDs that force you into watching trailers or advertisements by user prohibitions, and this is another thing that can be rectified with your backup. If they insist on advertising on commercial DVDs then I'll insist on removing them.

Mark

[Nitemare]

DVD companies argue that having advertisements on the disc helps generate interest in those discs which generates more revenue which allows them to make the discs more affordable to the consumer.

I think to much time is being wasted on clarifications and semantics in this thread. Defining, refining and differentiating between the words "copy" or "backup" is getting redundant. From the original question that started the thread it is clear that we are talking about backups of discs we own and continue to own. This is what most of us replying are talking about.

The problem is that you can't pick and choose the laws you want to follow, or you end up with the potential for anarchy.

Actually, the point I was attempting to make here is that in a government "of the people, by the people, and for the people", we can. There IS a process to it, such as electing new lawmakers, but as bugster pointed out;

If the MAJORITY [snip] dislike a law enough to feel it can or should be ignored, then the law is innefective and should be repealed. After all that is what the electorate wants, its just the politcians are too afraid of losing big industry finances to listen to the people in the 1st place!

Exactly! The voters elect the lawmakers, but it's special interest groups (such as the MPAA and RIAA) that finance their campaigns. In many cases the people running for office are bought and paid for even before they get elected.

This is why I say that laws like the DMCA were purchased. The way our system is SUPPOSED to work should make a lawmaking process like this one illegal, but it doesn't. But since the majority of us recognize that the law was purchased from lawmakers with conflicting interests, we disregard it.

I personally don't worry about being considered a lawbreaker or a criminal by people of this caliber. I consider them the lawbreakers myself so in a sense it's the pot calling the kettle black.

HOWEVER I do take personal responsiblity for the violation of this "law". If I were to be arrested and charged for violating the DMCA, I'd go to court and take my lumps. I would present my case to best of my lawyer's ability and then pay the fines (because it really IS about the money) or go to jail, etc. I would not stand before a judge and tell him that I broke the law because I simply disagreed with it.

If I believed for one moment that an artist was being hurt by my backups I would halt immediately. I don't loan out, share, or sell my backups so no artist is harmed by MY actions. Yes, piracy happens, but not at my house.

I respect the true intent of the copyright laws, and of my country's laws in general. I agree with Savant that it's dangerous thinking to obey only the laws that you agree with. BUT when a law is purchased (DMCA) to specifically contradict another law that allows me to make legal backup copies (Fair Use Act) to protect the originals, then I have no moral issues with disregarding this law.

The DMCA is immoral, unprincipled, and will eventually be repealed through due process of the law. Until then I suppose I'm a criminal.

Regards,
Nitemare

[vitualis]

I've lost interest in this thread in general... but in Nitemare's last post (above), he mentioned that the DMCA overrides "Fair Use".

The DMCA does not override fair use. In fact, it is written explicitly in the act (something to the effect of that it does not countervene existing copyright laws including Fair Use).

Where the DMCA is internally inconsistent is that for (e.g., DVDs), you will essentially have to break it (i.e., use de-CSS device) to have access to fair use.

Now, the stand this forum takes is that the spirit of Fair Use takes precedence ... which means personal backups, format shifting, etc., is fine. That is, we consider that the fundamental concept and practice of backing up a DVD is as legal as (e.g.) backing up an audio CD. The fact that you have to "de-CSS" is a legal grey area and it has not been tested in court (and it is unlikely to either -- because if the "pro-consumer" sentiment won, the DMCA would essentially be useless).

For anyone who is interested, I sugges reading doom9's analysis of the DMCA: http://www.doom9.org

Regards.

[peco]

Just for the fun of it, and we learn a lot with this "hobby".
We can even make money by copying VHS stuff for our customers and create DVD titles for companies, video books, etc.
For me is a great "hobby" and my work too... So why not???

peco.vgfx