Why Backup?

[handyguy]

Easy. I don't have time to watch it sometimes & don't want to go to the store every day to get a new one or having to pay another rental day. This way I can watch it when I have the time to.

[solarfox]

holistic wrote:

- how do i make blah blah in Scenarist/Maestro
RTFM - o thats right it didn't come with the download.

Not necessarily so. There's been many times I've ended up going to a users forum and asking "how do I do 'x' in software package 'y'", even after looking through the manual that came in the box, because it turned out that the manual was badly written, disorganized, or in some cases just plain inaccurate.

[Wetmonkey]

WHO CARES RAMBLE RAMBLE RAMBLE
This thread was started to annoy everyone. Lock this down.

[housepig]

WHO CARES RAMBLE RAMBLE RAMBLE
This thread was started to annoy everyone. Lock this down.

thanks for your input.

@Holistic -

with all due respect, I'd like to hear it from Savant.

if you look at some of my posts, I'm all ready to get into someone's face about bootlegs and warez, and I'm quite aware that there are people on this board using pirate software to bootleg dvd's they don't own.

but I disagree with his blanket statement that says "that's why the majority of people on this board are here".

Savant has evidence - let's see some of it.

[lordsmurf]

Savant has evidence - let's see some of it.

Or so he says...

[Kingnog]

You realize your are spending a ton of time and resources to re-encode high quality original dvd files at 9.8 mb/s down to half that quality with DVD shrink and encoding true surround or DTS to inferior AC3 2.0 and blowing off menus and cool extras for space.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU! You're one of those insane people who thinks that 320kb/s mp3 sounds disgusting because its not 'CD QUALITY' arent you! Half of 9.8mb/s is MORE than enough...and I dont re-encode my sound. Full movie + all menus + all special features + DTS sound = 1 disk, works perfectly well

[jeex]

does anyone know of a movie that actually uses 9.8/mbps? and not for just a few seconds..

most movies are quite a bit lower than that, so re-encoding them to fit on a dvd doesnt have a HUGE impact..

a dvd9 coverted to a dvd5 is like converting your cd's to mp3's, not like converting your cd's to 16kbps real audio files.

[ddlooping]

Hi all.

Savant, I think you have already replied to this question, albeit indirectly, but do you personally have anything against making backups/copies for "fair usage" (in case of "kids attack", to be viewed on a portable player while travelling,...)?

[Savant]

ddlooping wrote:

Savant, I think you have already replied to this question, albeit indirectly, but do you personally have anything against making backups/copies for "fair usage" (in case of "kids attack", to be viewed on a portable player while travelling,...)?

A well timed question... I won't be responding to all the other posts directly since there just isn't enough of me to go around. First off there seems to be some misconception on my position.

First off, I think a person should be allowed to make PERSONAL backups of their media they lawfully purchased (and continue to own) if they are so inclined. However, in regard to other points...

-I have never suggested that people here are 'bad'
-I have never said that the majority of people on this board are pirates, I have said that the majority of people who burn copies of DVDs OVERALL do not own the original DVD and are not making a 'backup'. My contention being that you cannot backup what you cannot own.
-For 'empirical evidence' one needs only to look as far as the conversion forums. As noted above, I'm not aware of any DVDs that come encoded in DivX, nor does the DVD red book include the DivX specification. I could post references to anti-piracy information and statistics, but it would be pointless since people would simply dismiss it as biased since it does not agree with their point of view.

Housepig wrote:

but I disagree with his blanket statement that says "that's why the majority of people on this board are here".

I would respectfully request that you not use quotes and suggest I said something I did not say. Read the thread AGAIN please. Find where I said what you "quoted". I haven't. It's morally dishonest to intentionally misquote people, and I would appreciate it if you would use direct quotes without making up statements I've never made.

What *DID* I say? Let's take a look...

However, I dispute any assertation that legal backups are the majority of 'backups' being made in this regard. Emperical data would suggest that most people either rent or borrow the movie and make copies, or download the movie and burn copies.

Nowhere did I mention this board or the users here, I would I ask that people not suggest otherwise.

Do people on this board use the information here to assist them in pirating DVDs? Of course they do. However, I have no idea to what extent they represent in regard to the total amount of piracy worldwide.

People seem to be making a concerted effort to blur the lines of piracy, why, I don't know. Theft is theft, and people should KNOW what copying is legal and what isn't. Whether people agree or disagree with piracy laws is not the issue here. If a U.S. citizen doesn't like the fact that it is a violation of U.S. federal law (17 U.S.C. 106(1)) to distribute, rent or sell illegally duplicated copies, even if the copies are made by someone else (17 U.S.C. 106(3)) then maybe they shouldn't make those copies.

I didn't make the laws, blame the ones who did.

Regards,

Savant

[yautja666]

Decided to comment after I noticed Vitualis' mention of backing up audio CDs...

In this case, my backing up of audio discs is dones solely due to the fact I purchase primarily from bands/labels around the world that have nothing to do with the RIAA or any similar organizations. Nothing beats scratching your original copy of some obscure Finnish metal band's album that was only done in a limited pressing...there is no way I'm losing something like that because someone implied here that backup copies are illegal/immoral or whatever.

Futhermore, I'm in a band that has been bootlegged more than a few times. I've also seen mp3's of us floating around online, but I feel no need to get bent out of shape over any of it. I don't feel cheated or stolen from; I know that anyone who likes what they hear will go to the effort to track down our albums because I have confidence in our musical output. For me it is solely about musical expression, not dollar signs, and I leave it to the purchasers of our product to decide whatever the hell they want to do with it. We've made it a point since day one not to work with any label that 'copy guards' its releases...we have a bit more respect for potential fans than to treat them like crap,

Y666

[lordsmurf]

Savant, you seem to be backing down a bit. In fact, I no longer know what you're arguing for or against.

For the record, merely looking at a small section of a simple online forum (which represents a small portion of those owning DVD burners and backing up) does not suffice as "empirical evidence". If I ever did any flawed research like that, I'd lose all credibility as a journalist.

Also, Housepig's quote marks are paraphrase marks, denoting a belief not held by the writer (him), yet extracted/implied from the source (you). That's the same understanding I had of your earlier posts, that we're "all criminals" for backing up. Again, paraphrase of an idea.

I'm not trying to be mean, but please make your point. You're starting to ramble like one of my close friends (a guy can never get his point across without losing focus a dozen times).

- Do you believe ALL backups are wrong, across the board, without exception?
- Do you agree we can make backups as needed from our own discs, and only angry that people bootleg?
- Are you against converting one media type to another (VHS to DVD)?
- Did you just want to toss a money wrench in the forums?

You started off with the "all you backup are thieves" approach, but that has wained. And we're confused what you mean.

[MackemX]

This ain't the 1st, nor the last time this question has/will be asked . People only seem to ask these questions as it will always get the reaction you would get if hitting a wasps nest whilst naked

I wasn't going to post and get involved. I was happy reading this thread but the more you answer Savant the bigger the hole gets and the clearer your intentions come, no matter what fancy info you post

First off, I think a person should be allowed to make PERSONAL backups of their media they lawfully purchased (and continue to own) if they are so inclined. However, in regard to other points...

then in the same post

-I have never said that the majority of people on this board are pirates, I have said that the majority of people who burn copies of DVDs OVERALL do not own the original DVD and are not making a 'backup'. My contention being that you cannot backup what you cannot own.

EH?!?!?!?. You have just said it if you never did before . The majority of people that will visit this forum burn DVD's. It doesn't take much brain power to work that out. So therefore your statement above implies that the majority of all the forum users are 'pirates'. Though how on earth can you prove that the majority do not own the DVD's? and then you go on to defend a misquote by saying below (which I find laughable). One breath you are asssuming the majoroty that burn DVD's (everyone here) are pirates and the next you defend it by saying the majority (pirates) come here to use information. Sounds like you are saying everyone here is a pirate to me OOO-AAR Capt'n

Do people on this board use the information here to assist them in pirating DVDs? Of course they do.

Now bear in mind my 1st quote above where you state that you say people should be allowed to make PERSONAL backups . All the quotes from your last post just don't fit together. Don't make acussations and then not expect a hostile response from people who are making PERSONAL backups

I ain't saying there are not pirates out there but I can't prove it but neither can you!. The only time you can 'prove' it is when the guy is dumb enough to admit it himself by saying something like 'I just hired this DVD', which they sometimes are . Even so, I'm sure I've seen someone mention you can backup a rental in Denmark to watch later but I'm not sure about this. Don't bother proving me wrong anyone with a huge post quoting such 'n' such laws. A simple 'not true' will suffice . I'm only interested to know if it's true because if it is then how can you prove everyone here isn't living in Denmark?. That would only leave people borrowing DVD's that could be classed as 'pirates'

Hmmmmmm, I wonder if Neil Armstrong could backup a DVD with his laptop on the moon?. What about while you are in international airspace? Is is illegal to back it up when you are in a countries airspace that allows it? Is it then illegal to own that backup once you land?

I'm sure I have also seen that if you run into a shop and steal a DVD then run home and back it up, you can get arrested for stealing the DVD but you can keep the backup. I don't know who said it, where they said it, or why, or which country it applies to. I have read it but I find it hard to believe, but who knows?

I don't care if accusing me of being a pirate (I very much doubt you are)as my response is hopefully not hostile. I'm just pointing out why you are getting the responses you are as some people may take your comments and assumptions personally

anyway, enough joking and silly questions, guys why do you bother answering these posts in the 1st place?, as people just seem to get a kick outta this. Like I said above, questions like this eventually get heated but only if you reply . If someone asks it again, just go tell them to use the good old search feature instead of wasting time and space

[jdizzy40]

"Huge amount of time re-encoding". I guess you don't realize how little time it takes, or you wouldn't of posted such a stupid-...... statement.

[MackemX]

oops, didn't mean to post

[IvIark]

Oh please, this isn't about law it's about PRINCIPLES.

That's the problems with principles, there's always someone who wants to inflict theirs on other people. If you're morally against it then don't do it, and leave the rest of us to protect property we've purchased in a way we see fit.

Mark

[MackemX]

there's only one way this thread is going now and meritline rings a bell

if people feel strongly about something, right or wrong then they will argue it to the death

I've done it myself a few times , so I'm outta here before I get caught up again

a simple deselection of the Notify me when a reply is posted option works wonders or is that *plonk*@everyone in this thread

[SatStorm]

Next step: It is illegal to remember a movie after you saw it.
Or: Copyright on your brainsells. Copyright on the Human DNA, Copyright on colours, on earth, on life itself!
And those ******** expect to respect them? Ha ha...

Once upon a time, the laws based on common ethics.
Then some "enlighted" ones determined their own ethics and that leaded to the Religions.
Later, laws appeared based on property.
Religion, Ethics, and Property sometimes are not on the same side, but over the centuries humanity learn how to use Ethics, property and religion in an ethical way. That is what about the French revolution was about.

The last century, we have another form of property called "copyright".
For some people, this form of property simply represents the laws which based on the so called "human rights" and not on Religion, Local ethics and local interests (local property interests...).
Those rights determined by the INTERNATIONAL COVENANT ON CIVIL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS. Their are fair laws for any human in this planet.

On the Article 19 you can read:

1. Everyone shall have the right to hold opinions without interference.
2. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice.
3. The exercise of the rights provided for in paragraph 2 of this article carries with it special duties and responsibilities. It may therefore be subject to certain restrictions, but these shall only be such as are provided by law and are necessary:
(a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others;
(b) For the protection of national security or of public order or of public health or morals.

Based on this no human in this planet has problem with what "copyright" is about. It is overall ethical and respected by every one, whatever that means.

The problem is that the last 8 years, those ******** bigones in US first (in europe today and who knows where tommorow...) forgot about those human rights and only talk about copyrights, copy protections, etc. Their laws are illegal based the human rights. They hidding themselfs behing words and papers, just to get more money. There are full of Hipocripsy!

Here is where this ******* problem rises. If something ain't ethical, then simply doesn't exist inside the minds of people.

What those stupid bigones forget, is that Americans (expecially americans!) needs an ethical reason for any action.

Where are the ethical reasons on those laws? When you buy something, you buy it and it is yours. Now, those big ones, try to re-determine this in there own way. They skip one big issue: The ethical one! And also, the rights of humanity!

There are not ethical reasons for those laws! There are laws about money and only money. The bigones just crossed this line inside their nest (USA).
If they can't even handle their nest, how they can be respected by the others?

Their are modernday clowns and nothing more. I already imagine historical documantaries for them in 30 - 40 years. I know my grandchildren gonna laugh with their actions, as I do when I see documantaries about the ban of alcohol in USA about 75 years ago...

All those big ones, gonna succeed what the other big ones succeed with the music indestry.

The only hope they have, is to be adjusted in todays reality. The world globalisation gave them solutions they don't want to see. They try to bring their old outdated bussiness model in the modern world. Well it isn't the same world anymore. Anyone knows it except them...
Their problem, not mine!

[Savant]

lordsmurf wrote:

Savant, you seem to be backing down a bit. In fact, I no longer know what you're arguing for or against.

In reality my position has not changed, all that has happened is that I have clarified the misconceptions that have been spread about my position. I tend to be 'in the middle' on this one. I am firmly against piracy, but I do believe there are situations when a person who has purchased a copy of something should be able to make a copy *IF* they actually own (and continue to own) the original copy. My main beef is with the practice of backing up what one does not own.

Also, Housepig's quote marks are paraphrase marks, denoting a belief not held by the writer (him), yet extracted/implied from the source (you). That's the same understanding I had of your earlier posts, that we're "all criminals" for backing up. Again, paraphrase of an idea.

When you paraphrase or post a generalization, you MUST use SINGLE quotes, not double. Double quote ALWAYS denote a direct quote, no matter what you may be quoting. Never use double quotes for something that was not written verbatim. Reporters have been sued for making such mistakes. (and NO I am not suggesting I am suing anyone, I'm just saying how using double quotes incorrectly is wrong) In case you're wondering, I'm a published author (magazines) which is why I know a good deal about the copyright issue (and how to quote ). As I have said, when it is your content being copied, you get a whole new perspective on copyright.

As for your questions, I'll reply in italics...

- Do you believe ALL backups are wrong, across the board, without exception? No.
- Do you agree we can make backups as needed from our own discs, and only angry that people bootleg? Yes, but I'm not "angry"
- Are you against converting one media type to another (VHS to DVD)? No, so long as you own the content - I'm not that keen on content conversion of commercial material, unless that material does not exist in the other format
- Did you just want to toss a money wrench in the forums? No, I enjoy a good debate

MackemX wrote:

Savant wrote:
-I have never said that the majority of people on this board are pirates, I have said that the majority of people who burn copies of DVDs OVERALL do not own the original DVD and are not making a 'backup'. My contention being that you cannot backup what you cannot own.

EH?!?!?!?. You have just said it if you never did before . The majority of people that will visit this forum burn DVD's.

The majority of people who visit this forum likely also burn their own music CDs but that doesn't mean I think they are all pirates.

I probably have a 1000 MP3s but they are all from CDs I own. I don't download MP3s at all. However, based on the number of MP3s downloaded daily, one could easily argue that the majority of people burning audio CDs are in fact doing so from pirated content.

I ain't saying there are not pirates out there but I can't prove it but neither can you!.

Proof is relative. One person's proof may not be good enough for another person, and the two people may disagree on proof since they don't believe the same thing. If I started posting stats from the RIAA or MPAA it's likely people would be up in arms about it since they dislike those organizations. This means that any 'proof' I post would be discarded and would be useless.

anyway, enough joking and silly questions, guys why do you bother answering these posts in the 1st place?, as people just seem to get a kick outta this.

As I mentioned above, I enjoy a good debate. So long as people keep it civil and polite, there is no reason people can't yammer about contentious topics on occasion.

IvIark wrote:

That's the problems with principles, there's always someone who wants to inflict theirs on other people. If you're morally against it then don't do it, and leave the rest of us to protect property we've purchased in a way we see fit.

In regard to this thread, unless you actually OWN the copyright to the commercial DVDs you may copy then it is YOU "inflicting" your principles on others. I have said repeatedly that I believe people have the right to protect THEIR intellectual properly as they see fit. Just because a person makes their intellectual property available to be seen does not mean they are giving others 'carte blanche' to do with it as they please.

I'm also against people killing other people with guns. Just because you own a gun and it is your 'property' doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with it. THOSE are the principles I describe. As I said above, your right to use something "in a way (you) see fit" ends when you violate the rights of someone else.

SatStorm wrote:

Next step: It is illegal to remember a movie after you saw it.

Or perhaps you think that people who see a movie are entitled to burn a free DVD just because they saw the movie. They've seen it so that must mean they have the right to do whatever they want with it? No I'm not suggesting that memory be affetced, but one should not argue that seeing a movie entitles them to download and burn a copy of it either.

Those rights determined by the INTERNATIONAL COVENANT ON CIVIL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS. Their are fair laws for any human in this planet.

On the Article 19 you can read:
(snip)
The problem is that the last 8 years, those ******** bigones in US first (in europe today and who knows where tommorow...) forgot about those human rights and only talk about copyrights, copy protections, etc. Their laws are illegal based the human rights.

The problem here is that you are mixing apples and oranges. Freedom to hold an opinion and free expression does NOT grant one the freedom to steal someone else's PROPERTY.

I have an 'international covenant' for you. It's called the Berne Convention. Give it a read sometime. A quote for you...

Article 9

Right of Reproduction: 1. Generally; 2. Possible exceptions; 3. Sound and visual recordings

(1) Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall have the exclusive right of authorizing the reproduction of these works, in any manner or form.

(2) It shall be a matter for legislation in the countries of the Union to permit the reproduction of such works in certain special cases, provided that such reproduction does not conflict with a normal exploitation of the work and does not unreasonably prejudice the legitimate interests of the author.

(3) Any sound or visual recording shall be considered as a reproduction for the purposes of this Convention.

The Berne Convention was signed by over 150 countries worldwide. (pdf)

Authors have rights too. Something that people seem to have forgotten of late. Where are their 'rights' in your eyes? Does a person not have the right to control what is done with intellectual property they create?

As I have said before, people tend to be MUCH more open to this topic when someone else has copied something THEY have created. At that point it's usually 'where can I get a lawyer' and not 'I should be able to copy whatever I please'...

The only hope they have, is to be adjusted in todays reality. The world globalisation gave them solutions they don't want to see. They try to bring their old outdated bussiness model in the modern world. Well it isn't the same world anymore.

So please enlighten me. Are you suggesting that people who own the rights to the music/movies they create should ignore those who copy them on the internet? Since they have the old business model of 'getting paid for what they create' what do you think would be better for them?

Usually the 'modern world' solutions people talk about are to let people steal.. err I mean 'download and sample' anything they like and they will pay for it if they want.

Or perhaps you have another idea that no one has thought about. If so I'd love to hear it. How do we protect the rights of copyright holders AND allow people to manipulate that same material in the 'modern world'...?

Regards,

Savant

[ChrissyBoy]

Kids

[IvIark]

In regard to this thread, unless you actually OWN the copyright to the commercial DVDs you may copy then it is YOU "inflicting" your principles on others.

Are you sure about the double quotes there? Anyway, no it's not because I couldn't care less whether you do it or not and I wouldn't try to preach my opinions to you. I am well aware that I don't own the rights to the movie, in the same way as I don't own the rights to the content of any of the thousands of books I've ever bought – but I still own the DVD disc in exactly the same way as I own the paper books and I will protect physical items I've purchased from damage in the best way possible. By the nature of the beast, that means backups with DVDs.
Like I said, if you don’t like it then don’t do it, but boring evangelistic posts aren’t going to convert the masses.

I'm also against people killing other people with guns. Just because you own a gun and it is your 'property' doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with it. THOSE are the principles I describe.

Yes well when I feel the urge to remove my DVD writer from my PC and smash someones head in with it I'll probably appreciate your analogy.

Mark

[MackemX]

lol, so much for the notification emails, still don't stop you reading while browsing

The majority of people who visit this forum likely also burn their own music CDs but that doesn't mean I think they are all pirates.
I probably have a 1000 MP3s but they are all from CDs I own. I don't download MP3s at all..

so what's the difference with backing up DVD's as you labelled those as mostly being pirates? You are debating about nothing as this thread is about why do you backup DVD's and not really whether it is right or wrong or if people are pirates. I could start a new thread asking why do people bother making backups of CD's? Would I get the same replies again from you and would you assume that you were a pirate even though you know you are not? The major issue here is you have labelled the vast majority of people in this forum as pirates by what you have stated. I couldn't give a crap about the rest of what you posted and I'm not really bothered if you label me as a pirate. The simple fact is you cannot prove it and you cannot prove anyone else to be a pirate, it's all based on your assumptions. What you must realise is that some people on the forum may take this labelling of being a pirate as personal and that is why you have stirred things up. If it's on purpose I don't know but I also read the meritline thread and you can get a debate heated just like you have here

Proof is relative. One person's proof may not be good enough for another person, and the two people may disagree on proof since they don't believe the same thing. If I started posting stats from the RIAA or MPAA it's likely people would be up in arms about it since they dislike those organizations. This means that any 'proof' I post would be discarded and would be useless.

what is to prove though?, nobody has to prove anything to anybody! You are the one who is doing the accusing. What did you expect?, no replies? You can post all the stats you want but I wouldn't be up in arms. I'd just not bother reading them. If I wanted to know about stats I would go looking for them . You cannot go labelling people as pirates when you have not got a clue who they are or whether they own the DVD (or CD) and not expect a hostile response

As I mentioned above, I enjoy a good debate. So long as people keep it civil and polite, there is no reason people can't yammer about contentious topics on occasion.

I agree but you are debating with me about your accusations and you may bring up some good points but what is this whole debate really about? I doubt it will be civil and polite till it's locked . I just cannot believe how you can have posted all you have previously and THEN admit you backup CD's! lol . Can you prove you own all the CD's?. First off you can't prove it and I don't think you do, as I bet you have at least one mp3 where don't own the original CD . Can I accuse you of being a pirate?. Is every personal possession you own legal? and I'm not just talking DVD's/CD's. I bet you even Pope John Paul or Bill Gates don't legally own everything they possess

[SatStorm]

I'm not mixing apples and oranges, you detemine the INTERNATIONAL COVENANT ON CIVIL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS as apples and the Berne Convention as oranges.

For me the second one is simply a "trade" aggrement. Traders made it for trading. It is illegal in points if you compare it with the ICCPR

Also, I know pretty well how it is to see your work on other hands. My articles here (and not only here) are many times copy/paste on magazines around the world, by individuals paid well for them.

It is obvious that you don't like to understand the ethical points of this issue. In Europe, the new law has a twist don't exist in USA: In Europe we are not allowed even to talk about those subjects anymore. European laws are more bad USA ones right now, but also there very less used until now, 'cause there are simply silly from an ethical point of view.
But the fact is that by law we don't allow to speak for those matters. Now it is not a matter of the Berne Convention, but a matter of the INTERNATIONAL COVENANT ON CIVIL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS.


And keep in mind that only in North America and some western European countries "downloading" is possible. For the rest of the world is still simply dial up connections, so this is not an issue for the 80% of this plannet. Also, keep in mind that the price of those DVD discs are small investments for non Americans! Our salaries are lower and the prices of the products are the same as in US. So, Back Up is neccessary. It is a must.
Don't mention that you take things for granted there in USA, which simply make it more difficult for us outside your country.

For example, there is no way to watch Babylon 5 in my country and most of Europe right now. The DVDs are the only way I can watch my favorite series. So I bought those DVDs from the US. It cost me double the price you get them there, 'cause the shipping and handling and tax included, things you don't have to pay there (shipping and handling is free most of the cases, right?). Don't mention that my order from Amazon needed 2 months to arrive here! It is virtual impossible to buy them again, they cost me a quorter months salary!
Of course and I back up those discs! It is a treasure for me.

And by the way, who are you, bigone ********, dare to divide the globalised world in zones? In the world of internet, in the world which we are here and talking together in the same forum, I have to watch region 2 and you have to watch region 1. What bullshit is this?

You are worm insiders visible to cold outsiders? You are sadistic pigs or something? Or YOU are the humans and we are secondary creatures?
Have you ever ask yourselfs, about the world DVD regions and how that looks outside USA?
And you believe that we gonna accept issues like that so easy?
How stupid those big ones are anyway?
This is the so called "multispeed world" which simply can't exist today. It was a model of the cold world, not todays globalication.

BTW, If you want to get "enlight" about the alternatives of the market models, do a simply Google search...


Also, about back up VHS tapes.
I back up all my VHS tapes recorded from TV, the last 20 years. Which, by the way, based on the new and improved European laws, it is an illegal act! Now tell me, how it is illegal to convert VHS to DVDR and it is not illegal to copy my VHS to another VHS tape?
Oh yes, there is the sony vs universal 80s background, that's why.
So my "analogue" rights are not the same as my "digital" rights.

Short words: Bullshit! I **** those laws and all involved with them. And I do it in a "diplomatic" way, just to be covered by their own game.
Anything turns boomerang to them. There market shrink and anyone turn to the "illegal" but ethical solutions. And this is their worst fears!

As you see the issues ain't about "back up" is about ethical laws and what is for real ethical to do or not. Papers, laws etc simply exist to serve and remind us how to do stuff.
And if you don't like any other explanation, just see all this story as a reaction to the rediculus laws, the high hiprocity and the unethical reasons some decided for us, before us, without us!

No, I don't back up DVDs to give them for a price or for free to others. I found this unethical. It is a robery. But:
- Yes, I back up DVDs for my self. I won't buy twice the same thing, I do anything to keep my property valuable. The reason I back up is because the DVD media sucks. I don't feel safe without a back up for my personal use. That is what the big ones fail to understand. If I knew that I would have this DVD for my rest of my life, same way as I know that I gonna have a Book untill I die, I wouldn't back up DVDs. Now, I found it neccessary!
- Yes, my friends gather to my house and we all watch a movie together. Rented sometimes. Or even to a country bar, to laugh all together... Then, I get it back with me.
- Yes, sometimes I rent MY original DVDs to some of my friends.

Based on those laws by those big ones, I 'm illegal. Based on any other religion, ethical, social law, I'm not. What count for me? What some ******** in the other side of the world force me to do, or what reality accepts? I choose the second one!
So send me to jail for my actions.
But I'm not alone on my beliefs! Almost anyone except you, the big ones, share those beliefs. And that's why this is a problem! Because all the laws are nothing more than words, and if the ethical human factor doesn't count, they simply fade away or virtually don't exist. If there is no respect for something, this "something" doesn't have a value at all.
So your stupid laws, big ******* bigones
The doom of the old bissness model is ahead all of you! I'm gonna brake dancing in your grave! Huge rave party included, with plenty illegal oral sex (in private of course, which is ethical if 2 people want to share the experiance....)

Now let's talk about another off topic subject: The stupicity of the "Political Correct" model and how the world returned (because of it) to the dark ages!

STOP CENCURE OLD CARTOONS YOU ASSHOLLS!

Ohh, I sooo love not to be political correct....

[bugster]

I tend to be 'in the middle' on this one. I am firmly against piracy, but I do believe there are situations when a person who has purchased a copy of something should be able to make a copy *IF* they actually own (and continue to own) the original copy. My main beef is with the practice of backing up what one does not own.

If one does not own it, one is not backing it up, one is stealing it. That I agree with. However, with regards to this site, the info and discussions on here are about backing up DVD's, not stealing them. Unless a poster is stupid enough to admit they are copying rented or otherwise pirated movies then we have no reason to believe the activities are anything but legal. Innocent until proven guilty is my belief, you appear to believe the opposite.

[housepig]

Housepig wrote:
I would respectfully request that you not use quotes and suggest I said something I did not say. Read the thread AGAIN please. Find where I said what you "quoted". I haven't. It's morally dishonest to intentionally misquote people, and I would appreciate it if you would use direct quotes without making up statements I've never made.

Savant -

first off, you are quite right, I should have searched back and quoted you verbatim, rather than improperly using quote marks to offer up my understanding of your argument. (Lordsmurf's interpretation was correct, I was not intending to directly quote you).

however, until you can offer empirical evidence of your mind-reading abilities, please refrain from accusing me of intentionally misqouting you. I may have misread the aim of your argument, and posted according to that misunderstanding; that's one thing - misqouting you with the intention of distorting your argument is quite another.

[jarvis1781]

If you guys want a great laugh about some DIRECT PROOF that people are pirates just check out this thread

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65002&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

This guy is comparing different versions of CCE for quality...and he claims that the newer version has inferior quality to the earlier version.
The problem is that he MUST be using a hacked or cracked version of the new CCE....I know this for a fact because I actually purchased CCE and the new version is not only faster but the picture quality is superior with less passes. So have yourselves a laugh with this "evidence" of pirating. The funniest thing is most of the other people replying to that post agree that his findings are true and "strange". That is because they too are using the same hacked version. Can anyone say "band of pirates"?

Go figure....these guys are also using $36,000 authoring software to author DVD's that only cost $15...i'm sure you can figure out the problems with that...

So there you have it...i'm not saying these guys are the majority...but it sure causes me to raise an eyebrow of curiosity.

P.S. if you were wondering why I actually paid for CCE, I own a business that converts peoples' home movies from vhs, hi-8, and old reels to DVD.

[lordsmurf]

Savant, this is an informal environment, where the quotation form of paraphrase is quite acceptable. I don't need any writing lessons.

This isn't a debate.. It's a zoo.. and I can't believe I got suckered into it.

Yes, I full-heartedly believe stupid laws should be ignored. To some extent, **** copyrights. At the point the laws become unreasonable, most people, myself included, just quit caring. This is quite common with traffic laws, pet laws and sex laws. Some even go so far as to include drug laws. Some of these fancy copyright laws vehemently oppose common sense.

I fail to see why the world doesn't worry about real crime (harmful drugs, murder, corporate theft, SEC fraud, terrorism, etc). We have a sespool of vicious crime in the Middle East, Far East and Africa, and here we are in the USA and Europe, whining about $5 extra on a DVD. Greed. All because of greed.

What's mine is mine, and if you don't like it, too bad. I bought the DVD, it's mine. If I want to make a copy for safekeeping, I'm going to do it. Stupid anti-common-sense law or not.

[Savant]

IvIark wrote:

Savant wrote:
I'm also against people killing other people with guns. Just because you own a gun and it is your 'property' doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with it. THOSE are the principles I describe.

Yes well when I feel the urge to remove my DVD writer from my PC and smash someones head in with it I'll probably appreciate your analogy.

This is where we disagree. I think a person has just as much a right not to be shot as they do to protect their personal or intellectual property.

MackemX wrote:

so what's the difference with backing up DVD's as you labelled those as mostly being pirates? You are debating about nothing as this thread is about why do you backup DVD's and not really whether it is right or wrong or if people are pirates. I could start a new thread asking why do people bother making backups of CD's? Would I get the same replies again from you and would you assume that you were a pirate even though you know you are not? The major issue here is you have labelled the vast majority of people in this forum as pirates by what you have stated.

For all intents and purposes in this discussion CDs and DVDs are one in the same. The content may be different, but the concept and issues are nearly identical.

The problem seems to be that you feel I have labelled people when I haven't done anything of the sort. I have never made any specific statements about the people in this forum, I have made GENERAL statements on piracy. For example, it is my belief that:

-The majority of songs downloaded off the internet are songs that have been pirated and that the person downloading the song hasn't paid for it.

Now the above statement might apply to people here, who knows? Remember, majority does NOT equal all! However, it is a GENERAL statement. If you want to apply it to people here, that's fine, but nowhere have I said 'the vast majority of people in this forum are pirates'. Those are your words, NOT mine. I would thank you not to suggest otherwise please.

You are the one who is doing the accusing.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. All of my statements have been general in nature, and none of my messages were edited so feel free to go back and see if you can prove otherwise.

SatStorm wrote:

I'm not mixing apples and oranges, you detemine the INTERNATIONAL COVENANT ON CIVIL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS as apples and the Berne Convention as oranges.

For me the second one is simply a "trade" aggrement. Traders made it for trading. It is illegal in points if you compare it with the ICCPR

Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. The Berne Convention is NOT a "trade agreement" at all. There are no provisions for trade in the agreement, which would make it a pretty lousy trade agreement, don't 'cha think?

The Berne Convention is a civil rights treaty. Ask any expect on the topic and they will tell you the same thing.

Even your 'article 19' has a big proviso in subsection 3 where it states:

3. The exercise of the rights provided for in paragraph 2 of this article carries with it special duties and responsibilities. It may therefore be subject to certain restrictions, but these shall only be such as are provided by law and are necessary:
(a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others;
(b) For the protection of national security or of public order or of public health or morals.

So while the rights are there, they are in no way guaranteed.

And by the way, who are you, bigone ********, dare to divide the globalised world in zones? In the world of internet, in the world which we are here and talking together in the same forum, I have to watch region 2 and you have to watch region 1. What bullshit is this?

The zone issue is a WHOLE other matter. I agree to an extent that it isn't fair to some that they are unable to obtain certain titles in their region, but understand that this is done for the protection of the companies in YOUR region.

If there were no region codes then the US and Asia would overwhelm the world with DVDs and local companies that made DVDs wouldn't be able to compete. Thousands of jobs would be lost. I agree that there should be a better way though. Perhaps a system whereby they can release region discs in the first year, and then after that the discs would be region free. Anyway, back on topic...

bugster wrote:

If one does not own it, one is not backing it up, one is stealing it. That I agree with.

Aye, but here's the rub. Is a back-up and a copy not the same thing in reality? Sure we could debate semantics, but when a person makes a backup, what are they doing? They are making a COPY of the disc. In many ways people have come to use the words back-up and copy interchangably, and so I consider the usage one in the same. A copy is a copy right? So yes, we are in agreement, 'backing up' (IE copying) a disc one does not own is stealing if they do not own the disc they are copying from.

However, with regards to this site, the info and discussions on here are about backing up DVD's, not stealing them. Unless a poster is stupid enough to admit they are copying rented or otherwise pirated movies then we have no reason to believe the activities are anything but legal. Innocent until proven guilty is my belief, you appear to believe the opposite.

Not at all. I've been here a while and there are LOADS of honest and decent people who frequent these forums. I wouldn't (and never have) suggest otherwise.

lordsmurf wrote:

This isn't a debate.. It's a zoo.. and I can't believe I got suckered into it.

Zoo? Aw com 'on... Hey, I've seen far worse. For the most part this thread hasn't gotten out of hand. (as it could have)

I do my best to try and debate while keeping in mind a notable quote. In the words of the late Pierre Elliot Trudeau, former Prime Minister of Canada: "Never attack the individual. We can be in total disagreement with someone without denigrating them as a consequence."

Yes, I full-heartedly believe stupid laws should be ignored. To some extent, **** copyrights. At the point the laws become unreasonable, most people, myself included, just quit caring. This is quite common with traffic laws, pet laws and sex laws. Some even go so far as to include drug laws. Some of these fancy copyright laws vehemently oppose common sense.

I respect you lordsmurf, but I think those are dangerous sentiments to hold. If people start arbitrarily ignoring laws, where does it stop? Does Joe Smith say "Well so-and-so next-door isn't following the laws, so why should I?" and so on. Without law and order you would have anarchy.

Sure people may not like laws that don't suit them, but most people are VERY quick to complain when other laws that DO suit them are not enforced. Would you care if someone didn't care about break and enter laws and then broke into your house? Society can't pick and choose the laws they want to follow or else you end up with anarchy and everyone loses.

Like I said, I'm happy with the system here in Canada that doesn't worry about people making 'backups' because a levy is collected on blank media. Similar systems are in place in other countries. I think a system like that in the US would solve a LOT of problems.

Regards,

Savant

[bugster]

bugster wrote:
Quote:
If one does not own it, one is not backing it up, one is stealing it. That I agree with.
Aye, but here's the rub. Is a back-up and a copy not the same thing in reality? Sure we could debate semantics, but when a person makes a backup, what are they doing? They are making a COPY of the disc. In many ways people have come to use the words back-up and copy interchangably, and so I consider the usage one in the same. A copy is a copy right? So yes, we are in agreement, 'backing up' (IE copying) a disc one does not own is stealing if they do not own the disc they are copying from.

bacup, Copy, I think the semantics ARE important especially with respect to this particular thread. To me, Back Up means you are taking a copy of something you already own for security purposes, just like millions of people and companies worldwide 'backup' their data on their computer systems.

Sure a backup is a copy, but copying is not necessarily for the purposes of making a backup. Therefore, people 'backup' DVD's and CD's they own for the many reasons already given. i.e. to protect their investment in that data.

[handyguy]

" Many people don't realise that. When you buy a DVD you buy the VIEWING RIGHT to watch that movie, you do not buy the right to copy it as you see fit and give it away to anyone you please. "

So you're saying you can buy a dvd & give to 50 friends to watch & that is okay as long as you don't copy it?

[SatStorm]

Well, I don't think this leads to somewhere...

You can use a knife for cut bread or to kill someone. The typical question: Is the knife legal or not?

When people hide behind words, well... It's a waste of time talking with them!.

The fact is that the whole world, all the citizens in this planet, are united on this specific matter: Those digital laws are stupid, unethical, and only serve the profits of the very few.

About Berne Convention. I belong to those that feels that it is simply a trade version of the civil rights. A fake update to matters that can't be updated. This is an old issue, years now the politicians have different oppinions for it. This gonna turn to political discussion, so I stop it here.
The truth is that only the international covenant on civil and political rights are full acceptable from everyone. The Berne Convertion is an "update" based on trading ethics, which are simply not an issue for human rights. It seems that I belong to a different party than you, even on this matter!

And what is that explanation you answer me?:

The zone issue is a WHOLE other matter. I agree to an extent that it isn't fair to some that they are unable to obtain certain titles in their region, but understand that this is done for the protection of the companies in YOUR region.
If there were no region codes then the US and Asia would overwhelm the world with DVDs and local companies that made DVDs wouldn't be able to compete. Thousands of jobs would be lost. I agree that there should be a better way though. Perhaps a system whereby they can release region discs in the first year, and then after that the discs would be region free.


You know, with this explanation you giving, I don't even have to tell more.

"If there were no region codes then the US and Asia would overwhelm the world with DVDs and local companies that made DVDs wouldn't be able to compete."

So, no free trading, no competition. let's rise a trading fasism so to keep our profits and the well known economy model whatever the cost.

You know, anything in nature evolves. So economy. This is all about: The fear of the big ones against the changes of the future they already see on the horizont. Well, you can't make the sun rising you know...

The world economy model gonna change, because people change, the world change. You can't keep it the same for ever, same way you can't keep the water of the river lead to sea.

The only thing that stays, is the ethics. That is what make us humans. The big ones thinks that we are animals, no feelings, no minds of our own. They think that we are unable to react. Well, bad for them...
The digital revolution already begun and as I already said, I learn break dancing just for them...

Rave party at their graves by DJ SatStorm....

And again: You in the US: Stop cencore old Cartoons!