Frame mode recording?

[racer-x]

I recently bought a Panasonic dv-953 (nice camera by the way), it's a 3 CCD camcorder that allows you to shoot in frame mode @ 29.97 NTSC. The manual doesn't tell you much, but from what I can gather, it is progresive mode. At first, I thought that it would come in handy filming sporting events because it should capture more data than an interlaced mode. But then I realized that once I created a DVD from it, it would have to be interlaced and therefore defeat the purpose.

So the $64,000 Question is: Why would anybody use it unless it was for PC only?

Question 2: If it is capture through 1394, it will be DV-AVI, wich is interlaced anyway. Wouldn't it have to be captured to another form, say uncompessed RGB or something?

Any input apreciated, thanks.

[D_Knife]

I'm not sure how the camera is recording progressive frames
but if your getting smooth frames without interlacing lines then the DV transfer should be the same

the DVD specs allows for progressive mpeg2 streams as well
ready for progressive players and TV's

[racer-x]

Basically the camera lets you shoot either "normal mode" (interlaced) or "frame mode"(non-interlaced).

If you use the dv-transfer and save as DV-AVI, it would have to be interlaced because that's what that codec supports.

In all honesty, even in "Normal Mode", the quality is so good, that it is dificult to see interlaced lines. In fact I took a video still frame and de-interlaced it and it didn't look as good as the original. The only time you can see intrlaced lines, is when a fast moving object passes by.

As far as progresive video, what good is it on a non progesive TV?

[D_Knife]

As far as progresive video, what good is it on a non progesive TV?

Well true

When you capture in frame mode - can you see any interlacing lines on motion
I'm just wondering if both top and bottom interlace line is "matching" so to speak??

[Cornucopia]

Just in case you didn't know, EVERY Standard Def. DV camcorder, whether miniDV, DVCAM, or DVCPro, records an interlaced picture---ON TAPE.
The signal may be different; it could be recording in a number of modes:

• Standard Fields (50i/60i)
  Standard "Frame" mode (25p/30p)
  Standard "Film" mode (2:3:2:3 pulldown for NTSC/?PAL?)
  Advanced "Film" mode (2:3:3:2 pulldown for NTSC)

...but all of these actually get put onto the tape as interlaced fields. And also get firewire transferred/captured to AVI as interlaced fields.

If you know what the setting actually should be, you could do an inverse telecine in VDub, or re-"weave" the interlaced fields back together for standard frame mode. Then you could work with the frames in their "intended" format, keeping the quality higher.

For your particular camera, I would guess that its "frame mode" is actually 30p. The odd and even fields are both captured at the same time, but the even field is written to tape 1st, and then 1/60th of a second later the odd field is written, having been held over in memory. This has an inherently higher spatial resolution than 60i (standard) video, but has less temporal (time) resolution. Motion will be more "stuttery" and film-like. Might be what you want, might not. But if you can get the 2 fields rewoven together, it'll be razor sharp!

D_Knife is right also, you can encode DVD/MPEG2 as progressive, and in your case it could possibly look better. You may not see a big improvement though, unless you watch it on a progressive monitor using a progressive DVD player (or computer).

Scott

[racer-x]

Thanks Cornucopia for that great explaination. Thank you D_Knife for your imput as well.

I also posted this question on the DVD-Lab forum and got this great link that explains all in great detail:
http://videosystems.com/ar/video_progressive_need_know/index.htm

Just in case anyone is interest in the differances between Interlaced mode, Frame mode and Progresive mode.

[vhelp]

hi guys.

@ racer-x,

I see the PV-DV953 sells for approx $919.

Yeah, cornucopia beat me too the explanation of 2:3:3:2 etc. In fact, in my
research of progressive cams and reading DV magazine has numerous
articles on this issue. It was a coinsedence seeing your post this morning
on this very same thing I was reading about for the last month or so
.
.
Case in point..
If you want to read up on some of this, DV magazine has just the article in
it's December page on this. Go to page 76 - - "Shooting and Editing 24p"
all the fun starts there, and
is very interesting reading - - really!!
.
.
And, also check out the article on page 30, "Lighting Challenges" ..should
prove worthy of reading Lighting is very important.

From my understanding, for sports footaging, it's recommended you that
you use Interlace mode

Oh, and don't forget your tripod !!

From the Video Workstation of,
-vhelp 2089

[racer-x]

vhelp, where did you see it for $919? I paid $1127 and had to wait 3 month for it. It never fails, just when you think you've got a good deal, you find out you could've had it for less.

Anyway, it is a nice camera. The only drawback so far is the 10x optical zoom. At least it has an optical image stabilizer that really works. Yes I allways use the tripod.

It shoots nice video with excellent color. I'm still playing around with the manual settings, but my football videos are coming out great.

Hey, while I've got your attention, what do you know about "Dropped Frame" vs. "Non Dropped Frame" NTSC mpeg-2. Given the choice in your encoder, wich would you choose(dropped frame or non dropped frame). They are both 29.97 fps.

Someone else said to stick to Dropped Frame, but I can't see a differance.

Thank's for responding.

[vhelp]

@ racer-x

My appologies. I didn't know you situation. I wasn't comparing your price
to anything - - just quoting from a page in DV magazine, on page 77, oposite
of page 76 (the articile we just discussed)
I just looked, and their it was, that's all
.
.
just visit your local bookstore to sneak-peak the DV magazine articles

Yeah, anyways..

It shoots nice video with excellent color. I'm still playing around with the manual settings, but my football videos are coming out great.

hay, did you see my hs football sample clip I did w/ the TRV-22 yet ??

As to the "dropped frames" I don't know anything about it under TMPG.
Never heared of such nonsense
.
.
What's this all about, anyways ??

-vhelp 2091

[racer-x]

Hey vhelp'

hay, did you see my hs football sample clip I did w/ the TRV-22 yet ??

Downloading it now, it's gonna take a while with dailup. Hope it's not Divix, I don't have the codec and don't want to install it.

As for the Dropped Frame mode, It all started when I tried the lattest version of DVD-Lab. When I imported my M2Vs into the asset window, it would report them as NTSC [DF]. I was currious about what the [DF] meant, so I wrote a thread on the DVD-Lab forums. Here it is if you want to read it:
http://www.mmbforums.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2663&sid=c1424a2f7da...d5954dbd096653

Basically NTSC is dropped frame by nature. But some encoders will let you encode to NTSC Non Dropped Frame, like the Mainconcept encoder I use.

I'll let you know what I think of your videos when I get a chance to see them.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just checked out your video, not bad considering the light and low bitrate. It looks like you took the 720x480 and sqashed it a little, then added blackout. I guess the black doesn't suck up any bitrate, so you can get away with a lower bitrate.

I only use DVDs, I'm not that concerned with file size. I just did the playoffs and easily fit two complete games along with a slideshow and motion menu. I could fit another game on it if I wanted to.

Wow, didn't they let you inside the fence? I'm the Team video guy, so I can go anywhere I want.

Nice work just the same!

[vhelp]

.
.

Just checked out your video, not bad considering the light and low bitrate. It looks like you took the 720x480 and sqashed it a little, then added blackout. I guess the black doesn't suck up any bitrate, so you can get away with a lower bitrate.

obviously, you didn't heed the powerdvd notes and the Aspect Ratio
..but that's ok, I won't go into it here

Actually, was not invited to take footage, rather I was a spare of the moment,
while driving home from a hard days' work. But, the people that were charging
those to get in, allowed me in (w/out charge) and it was ok for me to take
footage. However, because I was not familiar w/ the suroundings or the
school eticits (spelling) plus that coppers was in front of me (see the
video) I did not feel it necessary to press my way in. It was all new
to me
But, perhaps, next time, I'll press in.
.
.
Hay, speaking of caming and tripoding, I found a new gizmo toy for my tripod.
Yeah, it's a panning motor. it's prety smooth.. goes up/down and left/right
and w/out distortions and jerks and things. Really smooth. Only one beaf
w/ it. It's not fast enough, or rather there is not speed adjustments.
I'm thinking of tweaking it though. Maybe break it open and hot-wire an
new set of up/down/left/right triggers or something, but if I can figure it out,
add in a variabl speed adjuster (hmm.. my electronics is a bit rusty,
but I could rig a potentiometer and a few resisters.. and.. well, you get the
picture)
.
.
Other than that, the unit is great, and I can't wait to really test it out
in the field. I've only ben able to test it home - - very boring.
.
.
And, ta think I was gonna go out and buy an $200 Telescope w/ a paning
system (just for the motorized pannig) Good think I shop around randomly
and for nothing.. else I would'ov never seen the gizmo I got now. But, if
I don't extent on the gizmo I have now, I'll opt for an alternative later.

Well, that about raps it for now. I've got a programming project that's ben
killing me all this weekend But, it's turning out ok now. Hoping to get
it on vcdhelp soon.

From the Video Workstation of,
-vhelp 2093