Advice requested for DVD recorder (stand-alone)

[Rad17]

I'm planning on buying a DVD recorder, but would like some input. My *primary* task will be to convert my old 8mm analog videotapes to DVD, to preserve them. Which machine, in your opinion, would be the easiest and most practical for this task? I want to be able to go from the 8mm camcorder or deck, directly into the DVD recorder, and record in real time (2 hour tape = 2 hour DVD).

Any and all advice and suggestions/recommendations appreciated! I'm planning to purchase around Thanksgiving, btw. Thanks!!

[thoots]

Rad,

Well, probably any DVD recorder will suit your needs -- so long as they have composite video and audio inputs, which I'd certainly think all of them would have. That said, I wouldn't touch anything on the DVD+R side of the fence, mainly due to reliability complaints and other problems mentioned in forums like this one. As for the Sony machine, you could get a Panasonic machine with a hard drive for that price.

I'm so happy and satisfied with my Panasonic machines (I started with a DMR-E50 and just bought a DMR-E80H) that I would easily recommend them over all others. My results have been excellent.

If your *secondary* task might be "replacing a VCR," then I would strongly recommend getting a machine with a hard drive -- a hard drive makes "normal VCR" type tasks so much better and easier than a VCR, you'll definitely find the extra investment a worthy one. Plus, the hard drive gives you lots of extra editing capabilities that you might be able to put to use with your camcorder tapes.

I hope this helps -- good luck with it!!

thoots

[Rad17]

Thanks for the advice, thoots! Coincidentally, I was comparing some of the available decks today (after my post) and the Panasonic you just got came up as the best buy, for just the reasons you mentioned.

I also understand that, with the HD feature, I can load up a lot of the video from the old tapes onto the HD and then selectively edit them (i.e., put them in order) before I burn the final DVD. Is this correct?

But, yeah, I can definitely see the enormous advantage of getting one with a HD, and as a replacement for VCR.

Thanks again....

Rad

[nextlife1]

Thoots;

Glad to see your comments on the Panasonics. I have been holding back on pulling the trigger on getting the DMR-E100HS--why I am not exactly sure. Guess I seem to be waiting for the "perfect" recorder with a large hard disk and no authoring/compatibility problems. I have become pretty convinced that the 100HS is the ticket but have read some reviews that the manual sucks and that it is anything but simple to use. I am assuming that this is not unique to the 100HS, that there is a learning curve involved, and that once you get the hang of it all is well and it will be a great recorder. Am I right? Would you agree with this based on your experience with the previous Panasonic recorders?

Thanks,

nextlife

[nextlife1]

Thoots:

See below for the type of reviews I was referring to:

Review #1
Ranking 4
I haven't found the usability so difficult, and rather found it easy to use. If you are looking for stand alone DVD/HDD recorder without EPG, this or DMR-E80H would be it.
Only reason, I didn't give 5 stars is that I could not play the movie that I saved in SD Card on my Pocket PC device...

Review #2
Ranking 3
i can only confirm, what other reviewers already said. Very poor manuals. I consider myself an Audio/Video expert, but the set-up was horrible. I "upgraded" from the Philips 985, which was a piece of cake in usage... but so far i have come to a lot of frustration. I guess i need many more hours to figure this thing out.

Review #3
Ranking 4
I agree with all the great things that everyone has been saying about the unit, but If you are looking forward to copying some of your own DVD to the HDD, you better think twice.
Almost at the end of a poorly written operating instructions manual, there is a small little line that says "Cannot Dub from the Disc" this should be in bold letter on the top of the box. instead the hide it in the back of the manual.
I ending up hooking my old sony DVD to the AVin, and that did the trick, so I hope this help those of you who are looking for the function that does not exist in this unit.

[jaxxboss]

"I wouldn't touch anything on the DVD+R side of the fence, mainly due to reliability complaints" ????? Even the rats know when to get off a sinking ship. Granted minus R has a tad more compatability NOW as it's been out longer, but so did the 8 tracks at one time. Time to move on.

[DaveS]

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=181157

[thoots]

Folks,

Let's see if I can answer some of these questions....

I also understand that, with the HD feature, I can load up a lot of the video from the old tapes onto the HD and then selectively edit them (i.e., put them in order) before I burn the final DVD. Is this correct?

Absolutely! You can fill up the hard drive (17-18 hours at XP quality on a DMR-E80H, multiples of that at the lesser-quality settings) with your video, and then slice and dice it to your heart's content. You get into an "editing screen" which will let you cut out pieces, darn near "to the frame," or you can divide your videos into chunks, which then you could re-arrange into a better playback order, and so on. No problem!

Guess I seem to be waiting for the "perfect" recorder with a large hard disk and no authoring/compatibility problems.

More about "authoring" below. But, I think "compatibility" is a non-issue here. I'm not an expert, I haven't had my hands on every machine capable of burning DVD's, but my experience and common sense leads me to believe that "if a DVD player can play a DVD-R, it can play a DVD-R recorded on any DVD recorder. All we're talking about here is "emulating a commercial DVD," and I understand that most "newer" DVD players can play DVD-R discs. And, if anything, DVD+R is compatible with a few more DVD players than DVD-R is. But, only the "re-writable" formats are incompatible with significant percentages of existing DVD players. About the only way you're going to come up with a "less-compatible" DVD-R, I would think, would be to record one on a computer which contained video that used a bitrate or some other specification outside the official DVD standards. And, these stand-alone machines aren't going to let you do such a thing. Anyway, my two-cents worth on "compatibility."

I have become pretty convinced that the 100HS is the ticket but have read some reviews that the manual sucks and that it is anything but simple to use. I am assuming that this is not unique to the 100HS, that there is a learning curve involved, and that once you get the hang of it all is well and it will be a great recorder. Am I right? Would you agree with this based on your experience with the previous Panasonic recorders?

These aren't "simple" machines, but there is nothing you won't be able to understand, and it's just not really that difficult. Compare it to doing this kind of stuff on the computer, where you get to decide settings for stuff like this:

2-Pass VBR
Min: 1000
Avg: 4900
Max: 7500
P Spoilage: 0
B Spoilage: 20

GOP: IBBPBBPBBPBBPBBP
Closed GOP: Y
Detect Scene Change: Y

Truly, you'll spend an hour or two futzing around with things to get the hang of them, but then you'll get productive and just "get things done."

Let's have a look at a couple of those reviews:

i can only confirm, what other reviewers already said. Very poor manuals. I consider myself an Audio/Video expert, but the set-up was horrible. I "upgraded" from the Philips 985, which was a piece of cake in usage... but so far i have come to a lot of frustration. I guess i need many more hours to figure this thing out.

Ahh, what can you expect from a guy who seems to have a little difficulty with "capitalization?" "Audio/Video expert?!??" Oh, please!! Yes, you have to hook it up, yes, you have a whole host of new editing options that you wouldn't have in that Philips machine, but just noodling around for an hour or two ought to work for just about anyone. For instance, check out the "Shorten Segment" screen you get:



Ooooh, tough!! This is where you "cut out" something you don't want to save, such as a commercial in a program. Just navigate to the end of the stuff you want to keep, using all of the controls on the machine -- fast forward at many speeds, freeze frame, frame advance, slow motion, you name it. Use that "frame advance" to get precisely to the frame you want to start your "cutout" with. Then, press the "Enter" button on the remote control, which will hit that "Start" button. The highlight will move to the "End" button, so when you reach the end of the stuff you want to delete, once again go ahead and get it right to the frame, and then hit that "Enter" button again. The highlight will move to the "Next" button, and it'll give you a little box to confirm that you indeed want to erase that stuff. Hit that "Enter" button again, and it's gone. Then, you're right back into the "Shorten" screen again, ready to find the next chunk to delete out. This just ain't too hard, folks!!

Part of what's not documented very well is what happens with all of the "chapters" and "markers" and such that you might or might not be able to set in your ultimate DVD-R recording from the hard drive. Here's a link to a good, real-world explanation of that stuff:

http://www.prillaman.net/dmr-e80_review.html

Between the manual, personal experience, this forum, and the rest of the Internet, I think just about everyone ought to be able to get up to speed on one of these machines pretty quickly.

If you are looking forward to copying some of your own DVD to the HDD, you better think twice. Almost at the end of a poorly written operating instructions manual, there is a small little line that says "Cannot Dub from the Disc" this should be in bold letter on the top of the box. instead the hide it in the back of the manual.

Well, c'mon, folks, this isn't a pirate DVD copying machine. All DVD recorders employ "Content Protection for Recordable Media," or "CPRM," which doesn't allow you to copy commercial DVD's and videotapes. Very nearly the entire page on "Page 15" (out of 64 pages) of the DMR-E80H manual discusses CPRM, and what you might or might not be able to record given CPRM restrictions. This page includes a box with bold type that clearly states, "Almost all videos and DVD software on sale have been treated to prevent illegal copying. Any software that has been so treated cannot be recorded using this unit." So, this sounds far more "pilot error" than "bad manual" to me.

Finally, about this:

Granted minus R has a tad more compatability NOW as it's been out longer, but so did the 8 tracks at one time. Time to move on.

Note my discussion about DVD-R and DVD+R compatibility above. I'm not talking about "compatibility." I'm talking about "reliability." I'm talking about Philips people here in this forum discussing stuff like "firmware updates" and people with the cheaper DVD+R units talking about all kinds of problems, while the Panasonic folks are just getting stuff recorded and discussing tips and tricks to get the most out of their machines.

Enough? Hope that helps!

thoots

[nextlife1]

Thoots;

Wow! Great answer! Thanks for taking the time to write it. I guess the only thing I thought different from what you wrote was the issue around copying from a DVD to the HDD, which seemed from what I could tell not to be a copy protection issue but just not possible (that is, even with one's own recorded DVD-Rs not just the commercial ones). Is this not the case with you Panasonics?

Very helpful advice. I guess I should just take the plunge!

nextlife

[jaxxboss]

Compatability/reliability. Depends what the meaning of "is" is. Anyway, I kinda fell asleep halfway thru your book report, woke up screaming about king lear. I think the only real answer to the debate is pretty much down to personal decision. I myself have a dual burner, but just feel more comfortable with the pluses. I think it's because of the plus = good and negative= bad connotations. My dementia is pretty much right most of the time. Bottom line is if you record on one and the other takes over then you just re-burn on whatever is out there 10 years from now.

[thoots]

Wow! Great answer! Thanks for taking the time to write it. I guess the only thing I thought different from what you wrote was the issue around copying from a DVD to the HDD, which seemed from what I could tell not to be a copy protection issue but just not possible (that is, even with one's own recorded DVD-Rs not just the commercial ones). Is this not the case with you Panasonics?

Well, looks like I wasn't paying enough attention, combined with a little "gosh, I never tried that before." Indeed, the thing won't "dub" from DVD-R to HDD. A few minutes spent trying that and checking the manual proved that, totally. DVD-RAM to HDD is no problem at all, though. So, Reviewer #3 was right. Though, I must repeat myself, "gosh, I never tried that before." This wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me at all.

If you have some need to do that kind of thing, just stick it on a DVD-RAM instead of a DVD-R. Or, of course, there's nothing stopping you from just hooking up a DVD player to the DVD recorder, and having at it. I doubt there'd be much of a difference, because it's probably just a case where "dubbing" just plain isn't possible. You see, DVD-RAM isn't something you "finalize." It's just like the hard drive, format-wise. As is, probably, a DVD-R before you finalize it. But, when you finalize that DVD-R, you just turned it into a different animal, and the machine simply can't possibly "dub" the thing. Bottom line? Big deal -- go hook up your DVD player and record the thing, just like you were recording a VHS videotape.

Hope that helps, and apologies to Reviewer #3!

thoots

[thoots]

I myself have a dual burner, but just feel more comfortable with the pluses. Bottom line is if you record on one and the other takes over then you just re-burn on whatever is out there 10 years from now.

I've got nothing against the media -- nothing at all. And, I don't think one or the other "taking over" will make any difference at all. Bottom line, they both "emulate a commercial CD," and they do a good enough job of that to play in something like 90+ percent of the DVD players out there.

I just don't like any of the DVD+R standalone hardware -- it scores a big "ick" on my scorecard. The Sony unit would definitely be nice, though, but again, for that kind of money I'd go for a Panasonic with a hard drive...

thoots

[jrsdsl]

The E80 sounds great. Thoots cound you comment on the following i saw on another forum about the E80 and DVD Workshop.

DVDWS expects a contiguous VRO file. So you cannot make any edits within the program (e.g. shorten segment). You can however trim the beginning and end. If the program has been editted then you will get audio sync problems

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I'm about to get an Panny E80 and am confused about the above. If I dup to a ram disk and move that to the PC for use with DVD Workshop or someother app that supports the Panny VRO file, it won't be contiguous due to me using "shorten segment" to eliminate commercials, etc.?

I could see the file not being contiguous on the hd of the Panny due to cutting commercials but the exported video wouldn't be a contiguous file I have Worshop and thought I could use it to make menus for the episodes of the TV shows I want to record. Could you elaborate if you can.

Thanks

[Alfer]

Note my discussion about DVD-R and DVD+R compatibility above. I'm not talking about "compatibility." I'm talking about "reliability." I'm talking about Philips people here in this forum discussing stuff like "firmware updates" and people with the cheaper DVD+R units talking about all kinds of problems, while the Panasonic folks are just getting stuff recorded and discussing tips and tricks to get the most out of their machines.

Enough? Hope that helps!

thoots

So having regular firmware updates on a standalone recorder is now a bad thing? So I'm guessing nothing on your PC has firmware updates? If they DO, does it make them bad and unreliable?

As for us +R's talking about all kinds of "problems" ..I venture to guess I've seen a lot more problem issues on the Panny's posted than any +R's

Of course no matter what version a person chooses, you're bound to have some glitches, this stuff is to new not to. So just pick a device that suits YOUR needs and give it a try. If you don't like it, return it and buy another type.

my two cents....

[thoots]

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I'm about to get an Panny E80 and am confused about the above. If I dup to a ram disk and move that to the PC for use with DVD Workshop or someother app that supports the Panny VRO file, it won't be contiguous due to me using "shorten segment" to eliminate commercials, etc.?

I could see the file not being contiguous on the hd of the Panny due to cutting commercials but the exported video wouldn't be a contiguous file I have Worshop and thought I could use it to make menus for the episodes of the TV shows I want to record. Could you elaborate if you can.

jrsdsl,

Well, I really can't speak to the technical issue that you raise here -- gosh, it would seem that you'd get a "contiguous" file in the subsequent DVD-R or DVD-RAM you'd burn, but that would just be "logic," and not any actual "experience." However, the "Shorten segment" procedure does indeed mute the sound right before and after the cut, so maybe that might be something that might give some computer-based editing program a problem.

"Experience" would have me suggest to you that a DMR-E80H does give you many options for coming up with a DVD-R that might well meet your needs. For instance, if you record in DVD-R compatible mode (which you should), you can set "markers" on your video on the hard drive, and those will show up in the final DVD-R as chapter points. And, you can divide up your recordings into separate "programs" that will show up as different items on the DVD-R's main menu. Or, it will just treat different recordings as separate programs, naturally. And, you can choose from 9 different backgrounds for your menus, so you will probably find one you like.

In summary, about the ONLY thing you can't do is have some kind of "thumbnail picture" for your menu items. And, I suppose you could say that you could build a different menu layout, and maybe even make some "motion" menus and such. But, gosh -- that's a whole lot of work just to replace a totally functional menu with a little bit more "eye candy." I don't know how much time you've got to spend on this stuff, but maybe you don't have 1,500 tapes to go through like I do. Personally, I'm more than happy with the Panasonic menus, and I'm spending the time recording more stuff!

I hope that helps -- and hopefully someone else can chime in on the more technical aspecsts of your question!

thoots

[thoots]

So having regular firmware updates on a standalone recorder is now a bad thing? So I'm guessing nothing on your PC has firmware updates? If they DO, does it make them bad and unreliable?

Alfer,

Just tossing in my personal preference -- we're all entitled to our opinions.

I've got nothing against firmware updates, unless you actually wind up needing one to get the machine to work as expected. I guess the average Philips post I've seen has been from folks not getting the thing to work as expected, and then that's followed with many replies about "firmware updates."

And, to answer your question, nothing on my computer has needed "firmware updates." And, Microsoft has helped me become very afraid of "software updates."

All I can tell you is that personal experience with other Philips equipment over the years, plus all of the stuff I have read here and elsewhere about their DVD recorders, adds up to an opinion I have that I wouldn't touch one of those things with a ten-foot pole. Your results may vary, though -- good luck with 'em if that's the way you want to go.

thoots