BEST encoder???

[dangartdg]

Looking for the BEST encoder, software or hardware and info on. Im talkin professional "SuperBit" quality.

[Rambo78]

You can´t afford it.........
Go with Tmpgenc

[freestyler]

For what? DVD-Compliant MPEG2?

[dangartdg]

But if i could afford it... just curious and looking, plus, better hardware than software? For MPEG2 dvd compliant video

[Cecilio]

But if i could afford it... just curious and looking, plus, better hardware than software? For MPEG2 dvd compliant video

ok i wont be mean and ill just tell you. Its CCE. it cost about 2,000 plus some but don't just download it from anywhere and get a crack if you want the best pay for the best. thats what i did and yea it is worth it. but it is not for newbies. Try TMPGenc its pretty cheap at about 50 bucks or something like that. you still get pretty good well depending on your expertise great quality.

You are in breach of the forum rules and are being issued with a formal warning.
/ Moderator BJ_M

[BJ_M]

cinema craft is good -- but it is still middle of the road when it comes to encoders -- at least in price ...

the majority of commercial dvd 's are made with hardware encoders ....

some of which run into the $5000- 10,000 range ...

[xtreemkareem]

When you say BEST encoder, that must imply best overall looking over a specturm of variables. Just b/c an encoder may produce the least possible artifacts for DVD and encodes at 75% real time as opposed to 115% real time by no means makes it best. Here are somethings to consider:

1) Formats - if you can do more than one thing, and do a GOOD job, it's better then getting a bunch of different apps and learning them from scratch

2) Quality - it can be overated, but to many it's very important. If your encoder supports multiple formats, just beacuse it's quality isn't best, 2nd best is by no means best

3) Edit Options - I don't like having to be constrained by tight parameters - I like room to work, cut segments, add various color/noise enhancements, resize, change bitrates and advanced settings etc.

4) Speed - Most peole encode suring sleep, school or work, so encoding speed isn't the biggest issue. But when batch encoding, it's nice to only have to wait a few hours as opposed to a few days (again, nothing is better for speeding up a program that a faster computer!)

5) Ease of Use - some of us have lives or pretend to anyways. Learning a new computer language may not fit into our schedules. A program that gives you easy to use customizable templates, wizards, a decent help/tutorial... I don't need to have to search the entire web for a guide!

6) Price - I am poor. I don't have much money. Some of us like free programs or cheap programs (most of us do). If I have the options of buying a car or a MPEG-2 encoder, what the hell do you think I'm gonna buy?

7) Other - compatibility over hardware platforms, with file types, etc. HOw does Nimo screw it up? Any known bugs/fixes? Program have constant updates? If you invest in an encoder, don't ya want it to work for a long time and move into the future?

So, all the above considered, hand's down I would take one encoder above all others - TMPGEnc. TMPGEnc will do MPEG-1, MPEG-2, BMP/JPG sequence, AVI... real nice. It encodes audio (not the greatest, but you can use a toolame plugin to encode mp2... quite frankly, I've never had issues w/ TMPGEnc's audio... maybe I'm more the videophile and not the adiophile!). Quality? Best for MPEG-1. Damn good for MPEG-2. Try it for AVI (short segments). Edit options? TMPGEnc has the whole shebang! Interlace, noise filters, color correction, aspect ratio, crop, GOP, quantisization, source range... TMPGEnc noise removal filter is in a league of its own and puts all of Vdub's filters to shame! Speed? On my humble P4 2.4 ghz, my MPEG-1 VCD resolution encodes are FASTER than real-time, and my CVD MPEG-2 encodes are ever so slightly slower than real-time. It is always updated to be optimized for the latest hardware, vis-a-vis currently the Intel P4 platform. Ease of use? There are billons of guides out there, there is a wizard that does everything for you for newbies, and it's easy as hell to edit and customize templates. The guide that comes with TMPGenc is excellent quality and easy to follow, I suggest everyone use it! Price? The MPEG-1 version is FREE and comes w/ a 30 day MPEG-2 trial! And this isn't a crappy CCE trial where you can encode 12 seconds of movie without audio.... no, encode the whole damn movie with all options baby. When MPEG-2 runs out? Install a good MPEG-2 codec or get TMPEG PLus - unlimited MPEG-2 encoding for only around 50$!!! You'd be insane to spend 2500$ on CCE! I hope they burn! TMPGEnc has been around a while... any decent video enthusiast is familiar with with it, websites are all around adressing issues, it is constantly updated, guides galore, opens up many files, even corrupt ones and encodes without a prob!! So, does this answer your question? Mainconcept my derriere, CCE my scrotum, hands down TMPGEnc is the best OVERALL encoder out there, and I want someone to prove otherwise! :P (VirtualDub is also great, but it's only avi )

[proxyx99]

Hmm. I've tested MC 1.4 vs Procoder 1.5 vs. TMPGENC 2.58 vs. CCE 2.66 vs Pinnacle Edition 5.1. Here's the thing. I used 1 min. clip starting with wide angle (almost static) scene, then some fast movements (panning) and fast moving objects then and back to static with fast moving centre. Source: DVD rip plus second clip exactly the same but from DAC-100 DV AVI capture of (same material) VHS tape. Outcome: very close with some remarks.
1. Procoder 1.5 above average (based on all tests) softening of the picture, background (static scenes) somewhat blended (pixel color "averaged"). Background was the wall with multitude of color dots.
2. CCE injected some random noise (blue dots here and there) minimal but I did not like it, so no opinion on CCE (could be the setup?), but not impressed, if I was to ignore this minor flaw
3. MC 1.4 and TMPG equivalent but I liked MC output better. TMPG froze the background giving the impression of no movement and "refreshed" it every sec or so (from far away not noticable but from near distance seemed like stutter. Therefore I would prefer MC 1.4 for fluid and clean reproduction. Both have good detail with the edge to MC.
4. Pinnacle Edition 5.1 gave overall best mix of quality, fluidity, detail and low noise. Undistinquishable from original. Better then Procoder mastering quality.

As expected, in scenes with rich color and fair amout of panning no one could tell the difference at first glance. All performed very well. Procoder did an excellent job as well. I would say that it is (almost) irrelevant which encoder to use for such scenes.
Although my overall impression was very close, I have to say that I liked all of them with some reservations. TMPEG gave the "hardest" output makeing the picture slightly more contrasty and I did not like background handling (stutter) 8/10. MC 1.4 and Procoder 9/10 (MC likes clean input and has a tendency to make noise more visible, TMPEG and Procoder blend noise). MC was a notch closer to the original, rendered "on the dot".
Edition 5 was as close as it gets. Very well balanced picture. In terms of viewing pleasure Procoder output (master) was 9/10 on par with Edition. A notch softer but very nice looking. I was surprised with MC. Damn fast and very good quality. Btw. not much difference between 1 and 2 pass VBR. For speed, quality and ease of use, MC is the winner for me.
It's tough to decide, but I would rank them (from top): Edition, MC 1.4,
Procoder, TMPEG (for least refined picture). I encoded with
avg. 4.2k/max 6k and avg. 6k /max. 8k, all VBR 1 and 2 pass.

Don't want to offend anyone, these were the tests for my own benefit as I wanted to know which one to either keep or aquire (some stuff is my company's property). And one more thing, Pinnacle Studio 8 was better then I expected in DVD quality (6k), better then some more expensive other "studio" products.

[freestyler]

The two main hardware encoders used in Hollywood TODAY working from pristine sources such as digital betacam or D1 tape from the big studios are the Cinema Craft Pro SDI encoder and the Sony Vizaro Encoder - two VERY expensive pieces of equipment capable of a wide variety of dvd-compliant encoding features.

If you're talking hobby encoding from crappy sources, it's pretty much a black art and you can use what gives you the best results.

[proxyx99]

If you're talking hobby encoding from crappy sources, it's pretty much a black art and you can use what gives you the best results.

Agreed, and isn't it what this website is all about ("hobby encoding from crappy sources")? That's what we all do, you included. Isn't it why you're here?

[Scenarist_020]

Try this: DVD2SVCD using CCE &Sonic Scenarist. For some real quality backups.

[freestyler]

Agreed, and isn't it what this website is all about ("hobby encoding from crappy sources")?

I posted to let dangartdg know what the pros use for commercially produced movies, with "superbit" titles included, expanding on BJ_M's post of pro hardware encoders. This site is called VCDHelp / DVDRHelp and I answered his question because it's in my playing field.

I'm pretty sure many are aware of the "garbage in, garbage out" saying. The encoder you're using should be suited for your source - lower end sources are better suited for lower end encoders.

That's what we all do, you included. Isn't it why you're here?

Not what we all do, not why I'm here - care to assume anything else?

[Skynet107]

I don't know how anyone could argue against CCE. It is the best, plain and simple. I have literally tried them all and to my eyes CCE is the cleanest, most natural looking output. I encode from a variety of sources, from Xvid, DVD, Home video etc. CCE is fast, flexible when uses with AVISynth, and does a great job at any reasonable bitrate.

[proxyx99]

I don't know how anyone could argue against CCE.

I'm not arguing against CCE. Moreover, I stated that I have no opinion as my output was less then desirable. In order to avoid replies like this I did not rate CCE. It may very well be the best. I just had no time to make it work properly. I realize that you may not be fully satisfied but I was mostly using the other encoders, so it was important to me to find my way through the maze. I did not reserve myself the right to speak for everyone nor have I made extensive tests including all available encoders. That was to know which encoder does what best, so that I could make an educated decision as to which one to use and when. With other words I intended to calibrate my expectations and preferences regarding a particular tool. The fact that I posted it here was only to share my experience and spark a discussion from which we could all learn and draw conclusions. Me included. I would gladly learn about other users feelings about them based on particular experiences, successes and failures. And no hearsay please. Just your personal, hands on experience.

[BJ_M]

I don't know how anyone could argue against CCE. It is the best, plain and simple. I have literally tried them all and to my eyes CCE is the cleanest, most natural looking output. I encode from a variety of sources, from Xvid, DVD, Home video etc. CCE is fast, flexible when uses with AVISynth, and does a great job at any reasonable bitrate.

i am quite certain you have not "tried them all' and the kind of sources you have indicate a home user with low to medium low quality sources ... as a software encoder - CCE is not to bad , but the point myself and others here where making - is in answer to the original question - that CCE is still considered profesionally rather middle of the road (and cheap) compared to the encoders used for the majority of comercial DVD's ..
To try them all would indicate you have a d-beta and avid system and/or a frame serve system - the cost of the above being well over $200,000 plus the encoder card for another $5000-10,000++ (pus a system to run them) for each of the cards you tried ..

Not to say CCE hasn't been used for a commercial dvd (so has Main Concept and i would not be supprised if tmpgenc was also used at some point -- i know for a fact that cleaner 5 was used on several productions also (mac) as squeeze is now) .

If CCE (no mater that the cost is 2500$) , wasn't so "available" as it seems to be on the WWW .. i rather doubt it would considered the best by so many ..

[proxyx99]

BJ_M. You got it right. I guess I'm not the only one who wonders which way to go. NLE or not ? Which tool and and at what price? The trouble is that many of the posts are a washed down version of somebody else's opinion, and it's really hard to make up your mind based on these "expert" views. I would rather call them beliefs as many simply repeat not their own judgments. I tried to make it easier for myself to know why do I stick with a particular tool. Advantages and compromises I have to make. Stating "CCE is the best" doesn't clear it up, does it?
Btw. tools undergo constant improvements, what was true last month may be no more...

[BJ_M]

here is a kinda interisting test of software encoders (lower price point -which doesnt mean always lower quality) ..

its nice when companies are not afraid to do this and name names ..

Background: XS mpeg uses the Main Concept (as does Ulead in the example and so does adobe , vegas and squeeze (last three not in test))

http://www.puremotion.com/mpegxs/qualitycompared/dvd.htm

vcd quality compared:
http://www.puremotion.com/mpegxs/qualitycompared/vcd.htm

for vcd -- main concept (mpeg XS version) (in this test) smokes the others ..

[proxyx99]

Mainconcept my derriere, CCE my scrotum, hands down TMPGEnc is the best OVERALL encoder out there, and I want someone to prove otherwise

by
xtreemkareem


Last post (PureMotion tests) is somewhat in contradiction with that. Often bashed MainConcept and (God forbid!) Video Studio are not so bad after all. And I fear that someone may even say that one of them may be better... then ... No, no. It's like a bad dream. Go away. I thought I've had it all figured out... It was so simple , and now...

[lordsmurf]

Mostly TMPGEnc Plus.
Often QuickTime MPEG-2.
Sometimes ProCoder.
Sometimes MainConcept.
Rarely Cleaner 5.
Never CCE.
Never LSX.
Never Panasonic.
Never generic encoders (found in authoring and editing software).

Tried everything listed. And even a few more.

[Skynet107]

I just finished backing up "The Abyss - Special Edition" onto DVD. I re-encoded the main movie and extras+menus using CCE 7 pass. The movie is very long so there was no way in hell that an app like DVDShrink, DVD2one or any other transcoder was going to give me the quality I wanted. I tried several of these apps and the output was block city.

For this DVD I tried:
TMPGEnc
Main Concept
Procoder

And I NEVER said I have tried hardware based encoders, since when does the average home user have access to hardware encoders anyway? I can't imagine why hardware encoding equipment is even in this discussion.

CCE did a fantastic job on "The Abyss" which is a very hard DVD to re-encode because it is a very long movie and has water, water, and more water. No the backup is not original quality but it is amazingly good. No other SOFTWARE based encoder I have tried give the quality of CCE, and I have tried many.

[BJ_M]

7 pass is rather a waste of time ... but nothing to stop you from doing it ...

if you were spend that much time encoding -- better results can be obtained by hand adjusting the bitrate on a scene by scene change basis -and picking those even better than a encoder can do ..

even better quality would be to not re-encode at all and split the movie over two disks .. if quality is the prime concern ..

[freestyler]

When folks mention $2,500 CinemaCraft, that's only the tip of the iceberg - you've not seen the professional $45,000 CinemaCraft that's been used on dozens of Disney movies.

A skilled operator can fenagle good quality out of any old encoder, so unless you're speaking on pro level - arguing can prove useless.

Does DVDRHelp host MPEG2 encoding contests by any chance? :P

[proxyx99]

A skilled operator can fenagle good quality out of any old encoder, so unless you're speaking on pro level - arguing can prove useless.

If that was true Studios could make their DVD on 50$ Magix product.
Your statement is like questioning Newton laws of physics. Unfortunately we all are not equal and similar rule applies to human products. Seems like you interject to only to stir not to bring anything worth serius thought.
I happen to walk by the equipment that you mentioned almost everyday but I thought that bringing it up here would be meaningless.
I hate to say that but I've had more to to with High End MPEG stuff that you probably ever will. But that "piece of advice" especially in this forum is worthless. At home I do what I do. Just like many others it's about tinkering around and having satisfaction from individual experiences rather then pointing to the address where by spending mere few hundered thousend bucks you could buy yourself a PRO system.

Getting back to the main subject. For DVD backup I'm using Instant Copy 7 and couldn't be happier. Not only have the whole disc structure. Can easily choose what to keep and quality is beyond anything. Before aquiring Pinnacle I used to use ReMPEG 2 with excellent results. Never had a need to specifically choose encoder based on a movie "water content". Instant Copy made my life easy since I always hated guessing to the last minute (after a night of encoding) what the outcome might be.
And quality is simply superb, also when zooming.

[freestyler]

How do you know what studios can manage? You do it as a hobby, remember? Some independent filmmakers can probably make due on $50 dollar budget, ever heard of Pioneer Project 2880?

Your insults make me laugh, Mr MPEG - you're trying to read between the scanlines but the only thing flickering is the lightbulb in your brain.

My preceding post was only for informational purposes to familiarize some users of the CinemaCraft encoders prominence in some of the top DVD releases and to name some of the high end encoders used in Hollywood, nothing more nothing less. My remark regarding tweaking an encoder is universal - it only underscores the trickery involved in encoding with so many settings involved.

[bugster]

Getting back to the main subject. For DVD backup I'm using Instant Copy 7 and couldn't be happier.

Its good that you are happy but I thought the subject of this thread was:

Looking for the BEST encoder, software or hardware and info on. Im talkin professional "SuperBit" quality.

which makes freestyler's post pretty relevant to me.