Matrix Revolutions Discussion

[g_shocker182]

Neo realizes it all along, the only way to end this is to sacrifice himself. The Oracle noted that Neo and the Source (the computer mainframe, the Architect they're all one and the same so don't get confused) are connected which is why he can control machines outside the Matrix. He uses this connection to his advantage. He becomes a Mr. Smith and since all the Smith's are connected, the Source now has a lock on Smith and simply deletes him. Pretty simple huh?

I have a question for you. If the source was able to destroy Smith through Neo (because Neo turned into Smith), then why didn't the source (the machine mainframe, machine king, go through the people Smith had copyed himself into that were the ordinary batteries of the machines(people plugged into the matrix)?

[nissmo300]

^ I will explain your question. I will try to explain a few more questions other have too. I will try to start from the first matrix.

Let's start with the beginning, appropriately so. The first movie is about birth, the second about love, the third about death and sacrifice. Let me explain and expand on those three points. The first movie was a stepping stone for the other two, in that it introduced a new world, and explained everything to us, the unsuspecting viewer. Frankly, at the END, the only important bits of the first Matrix movie are the following:
1) Neo is the one
2) When he is killed by Smith, he comes back.
These two things are what explains and launches the other two movie. Neo is the one, because he chose to be. He did that by taking the red pill, which in turn made him understand why he took it. Choices are what govern us all, including Neo. When Smith shoots Neo in the first movie, Neo is “born” in this new state of enlightenment, being “the One.” Keep this in mind while I explain the only important bit to the second movie in terms of this philosophical stream of thought. The second movie was a transition between Neo finding out his powers, and Neo experiencing love. The really only important bits of the second movie are the following:
1) Neo is in love with Trinity
2) When Trinity dies, due to this Love, Neo is able to bring her back (reference – rebirth in the first movie)
Now, this may look like I am skipping a LOT, and yes, I am but bear with me. This will all make sense momentarily (I hope.) In the second movie, SINCE Neo loves Trinity, he chooses not to let her die. The second movie is all about love. Now, the third movie. In that movie, which I just saw and so is fresh in my memory, the important bits to this stream of thought are that:
1) Trinity dies to save Neo (because of Love)
2) Neo dies to save Zion (because he is the One)
Now, the difference with the third movie is that they both die, and neither of them come back. Is it coincidence that Neo dies once, survives the first and dies the second, that Trinity dies twice, survives the first and dies the second? I’m sorry guys, but no it isn’t. The entire trilogy is supposed to balance itself, just like the Ying and Yang. For every death, there is a birth, for every person who comes back, there is a death. The fact that Trinity and Neo have similar paths is simply to emphasize the love that they share, the love they CHOSE to have between them two which essentially led to all the rest. Now that I made my broad point, I will go back in time and I will nitpick and explain how everything in the trilogy effectively cancel out to bring a mathematical perfection, a balanced equation.

Let’s be original, and take the second movie. When Neo and Trinity come out of the elevator the first time they come to Zion, Neo is welcomed with gifts by everyone. Trinity leaves, and Neo says “I need you,” to which Trinity replies “They need you.” Then, in the third movie, Trinity dies for Neo, and Neo dies for Zion. Coincidence? No siree! It’s all about the Ying and Yang, for every matter there is anti-matter. Neo and Smith are the same, and opposite. The Architect and the Oracle, are the same, but opposite. That just reminded me, I have a bit to say about the Architect which was left unclear in Reloaded and now is blinding obvious in Revolutions.

Who is the Architect? Fine, he created the Matrix. Perhaps the relevant question is what is his PURPOSE. Ah, now we’re talking. The Architect’s purpose, evidently, is to force Neo to make a choice. In Reloaded, he must choose between the door to the right and the one to the left. This choice is what then triggered everything else, and what the Architect said was “impossible” in fact happened. The only purpose to the Architect is to emphasize that everything begins, and ends, with choice. Now, in the third movie, the little girl. What is her purpose? To show the similarities between humans and machines, and to make neo more and more appealing, and smith less and less appealing, in equal but opposite ways. When neo first meets the little girl and her parents, he learns that machines CAN have feelings like love. When neo fights Smith, Smith says that love is an illusion. Neo beats Smith when Smith KNEW he beat Neo. Why? Because Smith made the CHOICE to see what he wanted to see, not what was going to happen. To quote, “we can never see past the choices we do not understand”.

The ending of Revolutions symbolises everything, because it creates a symbiotic relationship between humans and machines. It has a moral, not that war is useless, but that it’s a perpetual cycle between humans and machines. One day one side wins, the other day the other side. Then, one side wipes the other, the “anomaly” – or the one – comes, repopulates Zion and it starts over. Neo is the one who broke the cycle, because he CHOSE to. By doing this, he essentially made it that peace is the best option, and he BELIEVED in that so much that he was ready to sacrifice his life. The ending stroke me as quite ingenious, with the black cat walking by the little girl on the pavement, because in the first matrix, the black cat was a reference to “déjà vu – when they change something in the matrix”, and at the end we have a deja-vu with the cat. This brings back that in all his ignorance at the beginning, the state Neo was in was similar to the one at the end, stable. The only difference is at the end, he achieved peace, and that is how Neo broke the cycle, that’s how his choice affected the outcome.

A few other questions that bothered me. How can Neo still see when blind? How can Neo still be in the matrix when not plugged in? He can still see when blind because Neo was created by the machine world, and in the end helped the machines AND the humans EQUALLY. Since he was created by the machines as the “anomaly”, he is connected to the source at all times, and so he doesn’t need to see, the source can feedback to him. This is also why he can be and feel the matrix when he is not plugged in, because essentially Neo is part of the source. I particularly liked the bit where Neo meets the girl at the train station for the first time, because the father mentions Karmas which I think summarize the movie very well. Neo is at the right Karma to be the one after his “first” death, Trinity is prepared to risk her life and have the right Karma for that after her “first” death, and they end up living and dying together, a love so strong that no man or machine could do anything about.

And so, through birth, through love, and through death – the life cycle of your average human being, we see the connection between Neo, Trinity and Zion. I particularly liked the bit when he last shook his hand with Morpheus, really touched me seeing where the two came from and the mutual respect they have for them now, and that is why Neo won, because of that human touch combined with the machine Cartesian mind and resources. The outcome, in my mind, though predictable was perfect, and I loved the movie. The last bit where the Architect says “Of course I promise, I’m not human” or something close to that, I think is great because it means that those who CHOOSE to be freed, i.e. have the right Karma to be freed will be freed, and so it’s a compromise between humans and machines understanding and respecting each other, leading to this prominent peace.

[Faustus]

*Spoiler*



To answer the questions in the previous post about the people still in the Matrix, When the Archatect and the Orical meet in the park at the end the Orical asks " what about the others?" to which the Architect replies "they will be freed" .

So the "acceptable levels of survival" that the Achatect spoke of in #2 will be implimented, and all the "batteries" will be released from the Matrix. Thus PEACE. It kind of touched on this in "The Animatrix" All the machines wanted was to be allowed to "exist" , and when mankind tried to destroy them, man started the war. Now that the war is over man will try to rebuild the world and fix the damage they did to the skies.


JMO

please fell free to bash the hell out of my interpitations, as I welcome a good debate.

**Do NOT read if you have not seen the film... PLEASE DONT**
down there
VVVVVVVV


















Semi correct, It had nothing to do with Acceptiable levels in this case. Neo broke the cycle. The Matrix stays but Zion is no longer destoryed and thus gets a chance to redeem itself. Remember if you've seen the Animatrix Humans brought it onto ourselves... in short we were asses. (how surprising). The only people who will be freed will be those who reject the matrix, but instead of rejecting it and joining the fight against the machines they will now be given to Zion to take care of, and unless something happens 01 will not attack the humans... they will ATTEMPT to co exist. The Architec doesn't think it will last, all the machines likely remember what humans did to them before...

In the 2nd movie Neo was given a choice, to let Zion be destoryed and thus ensure that mankind continued, or to take a second path that lead up to a set of events that would likely cause the entire matrix to be destoryed, human kind could completely die out and the machine would survive a little with whatever what they could manage on their own.(thus the acceptable level comment).

Neo however choose the harder path. Why? Because hes the hope for mankind? No. Because he had to save Trinity. Now in the 3rd movie Neo has to sacrifice himself so that humankind can be saved, and without Trinity he is now free to make this choice.

Smith has the powers of the Oracle and knows he will win. As the fight continues Neo also realizes this and determines that if its true only thorugh lose can he somehow win. But I doubt that he would have made that chooce if Trinity were still alive.

Anway thats just me rambling, thank what you will. I'm still not sure if the machine was keeping Neo alive at the end, or doing something directly to smith through Neo.... oh well, I'm leaning toward the second, maybe he was "Patched out" at that point as was said on another forum. Maybe when the MMORPG comes out we'll get a little more story.

[mrtristan]

I thought Smith was destroyed when he took over Neo, because he cancelled out the equation. Smith was Neo's opposite. When Neo ceased to exist, so did Smith. That's my take on it.

[g_shocker182]

I thought Smith was destroyed when he took over Neo, because he cancelled out the equation. Smith was Neo's opposite. When Neo ceased to exist, so did Smith. That's my take on it.

That's exactly what I thought.

[adam]

When the Oracle mentions the "others", she is referring to those in the Matrix who didn't want to be in it (remember "99% of test subjects accepted the program" in the Architect ramble in Matrix 2 -- meaning a small number didn't accept the test program).

The architect is suggesting that these people will be released (I think).

Regards.

Yeah but in that speech I think the architect also implies that the 1% anomoly might be acceptable except that it inspires others to disbelieve. People see others walking on ceilings and such, and they begin to question reality. If you think about it, its highly unlikely the surviving humans who are plugged in wouldn't realize something was up when the world basically experiences the apocolypse that Smith causes. After all, didn't Smith turn a large portion of the population into his clones, and now they are back to "normal," ala Sariff and the little Indian girl? It seems that the gig is up, and everyone would have to realize the truth. So I think it boils down to pretty much the major theme of the movie, choice. I think the Architect was saying that anyone who wished to leave the Matrix would be allowed to, but that there would be many more who would choose to stay in the Matrix even after realizing the truth.

I'm sorry but anyone who says the ending was rushed is full of it. You are free to love it or hate it, but it obviously wasn't rushed because the entire trilogy was written years before shooting even began on the Matrix. All three movies were supposed to be filmed simultaneously and all have very close release dates, but the studio didn't want to take that risk so they just did one first, and obviously that gave them the confidence to let the bro's do 2 and 3 how they wanted. The ending to Revolutions has been known since day 1 to all those involved in the movie.

The only real plot hole I saw was with the blue sky. I agree with others that its just a little break from the action and not meant to be taken to seriously, but come on... The machines previously used solar energy for their power, and after the humans scorched the Earth the machines went to all the trouble to cultivate humans and make the Matrix program so that they would have an energy supply, yet they didn't bother to check and see if there was still any sunlight reaching the earth....right above their machine city no less?

Anyway, Revolutions wasn't what I expected but I still loved it.

[Faustus]

I found the entire sky thing off during the animatirx. I mean they COULD claim that its just so high as to be a pain to built solor stuff up that high... but heck the matrix is more complicated then that would be! Heck the best movies have holes if you look hard enough. I personally am enjoying everything thing the 3 movies have to offer without plodding over plot hole ground.

[Ejoc]

As my friends and I talked about(no one liked it by the way).

There's like no way to support all those people if they get freed from the matrix, I mean theres not 1 tailor in all of zion, everyone's clothing has holes in it. They have no live stock, or housing... I mean the population of earth would go from thousands to millions/billions in like a day.

Plus it was talked about in the first movie(a movie not made to be the first of a trilogy) that giving the choice many people would take the matrix over reality.

The first movie was ok, I see alot of forgein films, so the action in it has been done before/ wasn't anything that new to me. But the first film was made as a single movie, Starwars was made knowing there would be sequals just like Lord of the ring, but the Matrix wasnt, thats why the 2nd and 3rd movies fall short, as they just "hacked" together some scripts to get us suckers in the theater.

Knowing what I know now, I wouldnt see the 2nd or 3rd movies as they add nothing to the first movie.

[adam]

Ejoc, you obviously didn't read my post. The scripts for all three movies were written before they even began shooting the Matrix, and the Wachowski brothers have said from day 1 that the triology is really meant to be viewed as one epic movie, and that if they had had it their way all three would have been shot simultaneously.

Matrix was not a standalone movie, it was meant to be the first in a triology and it always has been. In this regard, its no different than Star Wars or Lord of the Rings. Watch Matrix Revisited, the brothers talk about this in great length. Love the movie or hate it, that's your preference but everyone keeps bashing these movies for the wrong reasons. At least keep the facts straight.

[Ejoc]

Hmm, ok. Everyone I've talked to about the movies was under the impression that the Matrix was a standalone movie and that the 2nd and 3rd movies where thrown together, and that it showed.

I guess I dont see what the 2nd and 3rd movies added then, besides being able to say they defeated the matrix and that Neo and Trinity are now dead.

The fight sceens in the first one were better, dialog was much better, Morpheous was cool in the first one, in the 2nd and 3rd he was one of Neo's sidekick flunkies.

[Ejoc]

Oh I forgot, there was something from the 3rd movie I did like, but no one I talked to about it noticed.

I liked it when Neo went bind and was able to see .... I dunno what would be a good way to describ it, but those who saw it know what I mean, when he could see the machines "chi." That was a reference to some story/movie/myth I cant remember the source, but how people had to have their eyes removed inorder to see beyond what normal people could see. Didnt save the movie, but was the only positive thing I took from the movie.

[Hardcoreruss]

Complete and utter shite. The missus fell asleep and I could not wait for it to finish.

I would recommend it to someone in the torture game.

[vitualis]

Ejoc, you obviously didn't read my post. The scripts for all three movies were written before they even began shooting the Matrix, and the Wachowski brothers have said from day 1 that the triology is really meant to be viewed as one epic movie, and that if they had had it their way all three would have been shot simultaneously.

If I'm not mistaken adam, the second and third Matrix movies were significantly re-written... something about the death of one of the actors who was integral to the "original" second movie.

I thought that this explained why there was such a significant delay between the first and later movies.

Regards.

[adam]

I had not heard of any significant rewrites after shooting commenced, and everything I have read or seen has made it clear that all three movies were thoroughly planned before any shooting actually began and that the scripts have remained almost completely the same throughout. Is this principal actor you are referring to Gloria Foster who played the Oracle? If so then all they really changed were some of the diaglogue between her and the other characters and this only happened in Revolutions. She died before Reloaded was released but they had already filmed all of her parts for that movie. As far as I know this had no effect on the plot at all, just on some of the dialogue to explain that she looked different because of her new shell.

The reason there is a gap between parts 1 and 2 and 3 is explained in Matrix Revisited. The studio was not going to sign on for 3 movies without some guarantee they would be successful. After the first Matrix they gave the brothers full control over parts 2 and 3 and they chose to shoot both simultaneously. That's why it took so long, they were making two movies at one time.

[mrtristan]

Wasn't Aliyah supposed to be Niobe? After she died, they recast the role for Jada Pinkett-Smith.

[Hardcoreruss]

Wasn't Aliyah supposed to be Niobe? After she died, they recast the role for Jada Pinkett-Smith.

Yeah thats right

[Faustus]

As well as the Oricle who also died. But it wasn't rewritten because of this, the story remained the same, it just slowed production down a little.

Actually I doubt the deaths were the source of most of the delay, it was the scope of what they were creating that made everything take so long.

[adam]

Wasn't Aliyah supposed to be Niobe? After she died, they recast the role for Jada Pinkett-Smith.

Aliyah was supposed to play Zee, Link's wife, not Niobe. They had already filmed some of her scenes when she died, but not enough to be able to keep her in the movie so they recast but it had no effect on the script.

[VCDHunter]

After the first Matrix they gave the brothers full control over parts 2 and 3 and they chose to shoot both simultaneously.

After sitting through this junk I too chose to shoot both brothers simultaneously.

[gooberguy]

Being able to see the sky above the scorch! Wow... story please... at least let somebody know..

actually there is a story behind it.

IN the animatrix it describes that the machines wante dto be treated as equals ..yadi yadi ya.... ofcourse we said no. that caused some robot freaks to outrage, humans got pissed killed every robot, couldnt do it, than saw they live of the sun, put some gas in the sky so robots cant live, but robot found out a way to get energy (human slaves). They keep them in the matrix to leave them under control.

[mysticgohan17]

Matrix Revolutions on DVD January 6th.

[gooberguy]

Maybe when the MMORPG comes out we'll get a little more story.

im sorry if this is a rely srupid question but what is MMORPG

[Faustus]

Massive Multiplayer online Role Playing Game.
Everquest, UO, Starwars Galaxies type games.

[mrtristan]

When they saw the sun, it was the first time any human had seen the real sun and clouds, since the humans blacked out the earth. Yes, they had seen the sky in the matrix, but that was the real deal. Remember that their world outside of the matrix was a blacked out hell hole.

[freak_in_cage_10k]

I don’t think neo is dead! At the end, having killed smith, he is lieing on the floor on his back, his body in a Christ like position. HOWEVER, his hands are not clenched in a natural position. When we die (or just relax!) our fingers naturally curl a little, and in the final shot neos hands are flat!! A small point I know, but even during acting, if it had got past the director etc, it would probably have occurred to Keanu because, when acting, he would have to have make a conscious effort to keep his hands flat. I dunno if there will be another one but I think they are just keeping their options open!

[Craig Tucker]

Dissapointing, seems like the end was set up for a 4th movie (even though this appears not to be the case), Is Neo dead or what ?. And can anyone explain why they could not have had an EMP in Zion or would this have made things too easy.

[Faustus]

Dissapointing, seems like the end was set up for a 4th movie (even though this appears not to be the case), Is Neo dead or what ?. And can anyone explain why they could not have had an EMP in Zion or would this have made things too easy.

Well I've thought on the EMP thing a little and the best I can come up with is this. If they blow an EMP there they might knock out the very machines that Zion relies on to survive. Its a strech I guess but its what I came up with.

[Craig Tucker]

Yes, but they set one off anyway in an extreme emergency situation. So why not have one there for if that situation ever did arise. The only reason I can think of is they would not have had the frantic race back to Zion with the excellent piloting from Niobe.

[Will Hay]

Been back four hours and man was I blown away!!!!!!!!!
Superb final movie (4th film? my arse, It's finished).
Loved the aspect of Agent Smith 'winning' the fight, and missing the point entirley insomuch as Neo knew he had to lose, to win.
Not entirely sure on the platform relevence, yeah, a place betwen the earth and the matrix but didn't add an awful lot to the movie, for me at least.
Suprised at Trinity dying, but having seen the end of the movie made sense, Neo wouldn't necessarily have made the choices he did (and sacrificed himself) had Trinity survived.
So, the Matrix is reloaded and those fighting against the system/matrix will be freed and allowed to join the Zion population.
Appreciate now that Zion is real, and not a part of the Matrix as I first suspected (after Reloaded) although could never quite get how the Oracle (who was created by the machines and became an anomoly) and the French dude were allowed to exist in the form they did.
I'll be watching again soon.
Oh, and the guy who said....

(the movie makes sense)....IF YOU PAY ATTENTION

**** off, don't be so patronising.
Some of us don't go to the cinema to be so analytical, we go to be entertained.
Your posts made total sense and made the movie a little clearer for me but don't be so fuckin ignorant.
And the guy who said...

Having seen revolutions I'm now sure Reloaded has no relevence to 'realoding the matrix'

To you I say...


Will

[Will Hay]

The short clip of the sun, for me, was wonderful irony.
The superb irony of war.
All along the humans belived the only option for the machines was harnessing power from humans, yet there was the sun all along.
I might be taking too deep a step into the unknown with this one though, if the directors had intended this I think they would have emphasised the point a little more maybe, in Trinitys expression perhaps.

As far as 'is Neo dead?'
Yes, I believe he is.
Someone made a point about the French guy being the devil (Evil) and the Architect being God (creator), then Neo, in my opinion, being the saviour of Zion and ultimately the human race is therefore (a symbol akin to) Jesus.
He died to save us, emphasised by his posistion in death (aka on the cross).
A wonderful ending to a superb triliogy, although had it not been for the hollywood money men it should have and would have benefited from being two long movies, not three with extended fight scenes in the middle.
Will