One thing that nearly made me put my foot through my pc was when i recently aqquired my pioneer dvd recorder. I was like a lil kid in the sweet shopt case open in it went jumper check. Booted up, installed the software. Went to back up a copy of a film i owned, used dvd decrypter to save it to my hard drive. All fine the i noticed the dvd was double the size of what my pioneer could burn.
Talk about "have i been down this path before". Yes i had to recode it squeeze it reduce the quality lose menus and god knows what else. I thought hello Mr vcd Nero dvd x days. Yes ill get of my fat ass and put the second disc in. So here i was having to recode then it struck me i wounder if there is a bigger dvd format << cough'sss DVD _RAM shhh.
So no luck so now i make 1:1 backup's of large dvds spread over two discs yes just like the good old vcd without the pixel's, and then recode them to fit one dvd if i say dont want to get of my ass cough.
So now im more likely to use my dvd to backup large data files burn cds and films. The other post's on this site about Divx xvid ? Do you know how many divx films you can get on a normal dvd, and if like me your dvd player is your pc connected to your tv whats the problem ?
On a subject so far of the scale has anyone noticed how crap the sound is on The matrix Reloaded dvd you cant ear them speak but the room earth quakes when they fight and no it isnt my setup its the only fim that does it.
ROLL ON BLUE LASER AND IT'S 30 GB STORAGE STORAGE
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Here's a word that people today just don't want to hear: WAIT. We have no idea if any of these formats will be going anywhere at all. People do seem to want to use another word though: SPECULATE. Maybe it makes them feel better...
The way I see it, it is like this:
Dash discs was first, Plus disc followed. Unfortunatelly, on most markets Dash discs are cheaper and whatever the plus party tried to do, there are still more popular worldwide. Dual format burners made it clear that the market gonna choose what is cheaper and does the job well (plus is better in theory and from what I read also easier to be made by manufactures, but the market use only the best cheaper alternative and from what I see, the plus discs are too young to low the prices that much...).
So, how you reverse this situation? Easy: One major player (Phillips) present first a NEW kind of disk. A disc which is what the majority of people search. A disc capable to "backup" a full movie, without re-encoding or whatever "dvd2one"like technick (a DVB spoiler technick...).
A disc which can do with DVDs what a CD-R can do to CD audio discs: Perfect "back up"
Now keep in mind that those plus discs isn't a format. The minus discs are. So, what we have here, is something realy - realy clever: The big hollywood ones, can force one way or the other the official format not to present a Disc capable to harm their interests. But they can't force a idepentent format like the plus discs. You see, in a way, those plus discs "emulates" DVD Video fuction, officially speaking... So, they can do whatever they wish to do, without any limitations..
If the costumer can use those discs to "back up" easy commercial discs, in a reasonable cost, then he gonna do it. And what means "reasonable cost"? The common sence says that you have to pay for what you get. So:
If a DVD-R discs let say costs 1 Euro per 4.7GB, then a DVD+R disc with a cost of 2 Euros for 9.2GB is simply reasonable. And if the cost is less, like 1.89 per 9.2GB DVD+R disc, it shows like a good deal!
The bottom line is that for the very fist time, the plus format has the upper hand. And with the price logic I analyse here, the plus party can produce discs at the same prices they made them today, which may seems (and is...) expencive compared the dash discs, but when they gonna be 9.2GB gonna look cheap!
You see, the plus party already have manufactures worldwide. They gonna change couple of machines there and with a minimum real cost gonna start produsing those new discs, they can sell in a almost double price and for the first time the costumer accept this!
Now it is the dash format that runs to follow the market...
Clever moove from Philips, indeed...
About the burners: Did the 4X burners costed more the 2X burners? No. Did the dual format burners costed more the typical 4X burners? No.
(they did for a while (2 months..) later there was exactly the same price!)
My point: The new burners gonna cost the price of the burners they gonna replace in the market. Maybe they gonna be a bit more expencive first, but not for long!
The way I see it, those burners gonna cost about 250 $ first, 200$ in 2 months after their first release and less than 180$ in 4 months later. Those burners also gonna burn 8X, 'cause 8X for 9.2GB means ~15 min. And this is "slow" from a psychological point of view.
You see, a costumer needs to feel that he is able to burn a disc (ANY DISC!) at about 10 min. Less is fast, more is slow! 10 min is the barrier! Not for me and you, the ones of those forums, I talk about the mainstream costumer.
Anyway, I belong to the dash party users, but if those plus 9,2GB discs turn cheaper, I don't have a single problem adapt them for my home movies (yes, I rarely back up DVDs, I have my DVB transmissions to play with and love them)
Who cares about burners that can burn twice as much as they do now?
... not me.
Not long ago the debate was about blue laser and now this, no matter what you buy now there will always be something bigger and better a couple of years or so later, you'll always be playing catchup.
I can backup a film from dvd9 now to a 4gb dvd and it looks like dvd quality to me so why would i need a burner that does the same thing for 3 or 4 times the price of a burner now?
I'll just let the rich kids with plenty of money throw all their cash at the new technology bringing the prices down, then after a year and half i'll buy one for £100, and then stick two dvd quality films on one dvd.
I think that it's not a matter of laser power. -RW and +RW disks require a higher laser output to erase, so the laser can be made to produce higher power.
You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip.
I am guessing that theoretically, it is possible to modify the f/w of an existing (perhaps not all) DVD recorder to record dual layer disks.
Hold on a second here. There are many ways the two layer discs could work and most of them do not require increasing power. I would imagine having the layers react to the wavelength of the coherent light differently. So the bottom layer is 630nm and the upper layer is 660nm [numbers pulled from ass] then you just need two lasers or a single tuneable laser. Now, if you choose the lower level (the one closest to the laser head) to be compatible with current DVD+R wavelength then you have a compatible format.
Modulating writing laser power would not be a nice solution to the problem.
Originally Posted by RAAGAAman
Originally Posted by mixman380
But think about it. I'll bet there's not a person on this site that doesn't have old, outdated parts in their closet. I mean c'mon. We ALL upgrade our computers. It's impossible to stay up with the technology without eventually having to replace old parts with new parts. If you're lucky, you can sell smoe of those old parts off to other people. That's just the way it is with computers.
Originally Posted by overloaded_ide
Originally Posted by freestyler
Yes, they will be able to read the discs. THEY ALREADY DO. Any commercial movie you rent is on a dual layered, 8 gig disc. As a matter of fact, in the article that was posted about them, it was mentioned that people will NOT have to buy new DVD players, as the new dual layered blanks will be able to be read on any existing standalone DVD player. Only thing we'll have to replace are the 4.7 gig burners with the new burners if we want to be able to burn onto then at FULL capacity.
Originally Posted by Shtirlits
Originally Posted by Northstar
Yes that's true.
But then again still you don't toss the DVD5 -r drive. If nothing else you can always use it as a reader Comercail DVD's are working the same.
So what ever you can do with a DVD now you can do the same thing later
Yes anyone wanting the 8.5gig burners won't have to shrink a DVD anymore, just a straight rip. Same as we do a DVD5. And if your ripping a DVD5 why waist a 8.5gig disk? Just burn a 4.7 disk. If your gonna try any disk to disk copies, well you read with the burner you have now and burn with the 8.5 drive.
As for what disks do what. What's the big deal about larger disks anyway?
You can't burn 4X disks on a 2x burner faster than 2x anyway right! So buy the disks you use and forget the others.
Now it would be nice if the 8.5gig drives could burn normall 4.7 disk we use now since those will be much lower priced than the 8.5gig. Then you could use a cheap smaller disk for DVD5 copies instead of half an expensive 8.5 disk. But if not, keep your currunt burner as I said above,
It's not going to magically die soon as the 8.5 drives come out!
As for burning 8.5gig disks in the currunt burners, I don't think so!
Maybe you could burn the bottom layer ok, but why even try? Those are going to be expensive disks and why buy them instead of cheap 4.7?
NO WAY you will be burning 8.5gigs with a 4.7gig burner that I can think of. Most likely as another said it will be different wave lasers. Or maybe pointed at angles to controll which layer is burned. Most likely those 8.5 drives will have more lasers than our currant 4.7gig drives.overloaded_ide
You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip.-Yar, matey!-
Does any one remember the good old days when Hard drives were 5 gigs ? I think i made my point.
Originally Posted by i am x
I said i wouldnt buy one NOW if it was available, i would buy one when they dropped to £100. I also said that the quality i get from copying a dvd NOW and compressing it onto a dvd 4.7 looks like dvd quality to me, i cant see a loss of quality, im more happy with the quality.
I only recently bought a dual format burner, i waited till the prices became acceptable to me, just as i'll wait till they are acceptable with the new ones
I have only owned a dvd player around 6 months, again waiting till they were dirt cheap.
So as you see, i never once said anything self defeating and that i wouldnt update to the newest technology. :P
I read in a local Swedish DVD magazine that *some* DVD-Burners will be able to burn the dual-layer discs, wether they are correct or not, I do not know, but I guess they have some sort of source for their information.
Another question, will there be DVD18 discs availible? The Dual Sided Dual Layer discs? I own the Ultimate Edition of Terminator 2: Judgement Day. That disc contains both the orignal version and the extended version on one side (extended by almost 30 mins). It also features DTS audio and the orignial audio track -- on the same side. If you flip the disc, you'll get all the special features... and there's a lot! Anyways, for understandable reasons, I don't like to bring that massive aluminum case and when I travel (Beeeeep went the airport metal detector :P), therefor I'd like to back all that up for that reason... or maybe if I need to bring it along to watch it some place else or of a friend want's to borrow it... Which I'm a little sensitive about with such an expensive and limited edition disc. I also own a few Seasons of The X-Files in their expensive-a$$ $120 boxes... Another box you don't lend away without having hard to sleep at night.
As I (and my colleauges/friends) make a lot of movies and presentations, the possibility to burn DVD9 and/or DVD18 would be an extreme boost! Picturing instead of weighing picture qualtiy to DTS-audio with just a Stereo 160kbit/sec secondary track, to the possibility to add Full Video Quality, Full DTS-sound and another 5.1 DD @ 448 kbit/sec. Still we'd have a lot of space for the blooper reels and other "special features" if we like.
I'm gonna pick one up ASAP.
You can send those 1+GB HD's, 24+CDRW's, 1-4x DVDRW's, PI's,II's,II's and other "not-so-bleeding edge" devices my way. I'll gladly take them; I can find some uses for them. JBOD's, RAID's, Networked burn banks, swappable boot drives, auxilliary servers. Things don't have to be cutting edge to still be quite useful.
There's also a lot of speculation going on here about how this technology is going to work, but I'll bet NOBODY here actually knows for sure.
I'll make an educated guess that the additional feature of being able to recognize 2 different burn layers and/or wavelengths would require the addition of logic and regulating chips that would go beyond some simple firmware upgrade. Therefore, I would also guess that DualLayerRecordables would be play/read-compatible with players and ROM's, but less so than Recordables currently are. Also, they might barely be burn-compatible with SL Burner/Recorders, but only up to the SL limit. I would actually bet money ($20US) that NO SL burners would be retrofittalbe/upgradeable to DL.
Originally Posted by Cornucopia
Originally Posted by CornucopiaYou stop me again whilst I'm walking and I'll cut your fv<king Jacob's off.
Originally Posted by tompika
I purchased a Sony DRX510UL External 4X DVD±R(W) burner for $350. I went to Sony's online hardware support, and here's the conversation:
"I recently invested in a DRX510UL. Dual-layer DVD+R(W) burning will be available in 2004. What is the probability that you will make a firmware update available for my drive to support dual-layer burning?"
"I have no information that indicates any updates to dual layer anytime in the near or extended future. My training has indicated Sony will only have single sided burning for their DVD market."
I think its almost inevitable that old SL burners will NOT be upgradeable to DL, its like the situation of std CDr and DD-CDR (sony only). A lot of cdr burners will burn 90min and even 99min cDR but that requires no difference in the laser head rather the drive mechanism and head placement. I personally have held off buying a dvdr burner, but will do soon when they start appearing on the 2nd hand market at quite exceptional prices!. And all those who rush out and buy the new DL burners will be posting here saying "what media works..." "it wont do xxx" . The bleeding edge of technology or the cost effective trailing edge?Corned beef is now made to a higher standard than at any time in history.
The electronic components of the power part adopted a lot of Rubycons.