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  1. Member
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    One thing that nearly made me put my foot through my pc was when i recently aqquired my pioneer dvd recorder. I was like a lil kid in the sweet shopt case open in it went jumper check. Booted up, installed the software. Went to back up a copy of a film i owned, used dvd decrypter to save it to my hard drive. All fine the i noticed the dvd was double the size of what my pioneer could burn.

    Talk about "have i been down this path before". Yes i had to recode it squeeze it reduce the quality lose menus and god knows what else. I thought hello Mr vcd Nero dvd x days. Yes ill get of my fat ass and put the second disc in. So here i was having to recode then it struck me i wounder if there is a bigger dvd format << cough'sss DVD _RAM shhh.

    So no luck so now i make 1:1 backup's of large dvds spread over two discs yes just like the good old vcd without the pixel's, and then recode them to fit one dvd if i say dont want to get of my ass cough.

    So now im more likely to use my dvd to backup large data files burn cds and films. The other post's on this site about Divx xvid ? Do you know how many divx films you can get on a normal dvd, and if like me your dvd player is your pc connected to your tv whats the problem ?

    On a subject so far of the scale has anyone noticed how crap the sound is on The matrix Reloaded dvd you cant ear them speak but the room earth quakes when they fight and no it isnt my setup its the only fim that does it.

    ROLL ON BLUE LASER AND IT'S 30 GB STORAGE STORAGE
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  2. Member
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    Here's a word that people today just don't want to hear: WAIT. We have no idea if any of these formats will be going anywhere at all. People do seem to want to use another word though: SPECULATE. Maybe it makes them feel better...
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  3. The Old One SatStorm's Avatar
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    The way I see it, it is like this:

    Dash discs was first, Plus disc followed. Unfortunatelly, on most markets Dash discs are cheaper and whatever the plus party tried to do, there are still more popular worldwide. Dual format burners made it clear that the market gonna choose what is cheaper and does the job well (plus is better in theory and from what I read also easier to be made by manufactures, but the market use only the best cheaper alternative and from what I see, the plus discs are too young to low the prices that much...).

    So, how you reverse this situation? Easy: One major player (Phillips) present first a NEW kind of disk. A disc which is what the majority of people search. A disc capable to "backup" a full movie, without re-encoding or whatever "dvd2one"like technick (a DVB spoiler technick...).
    A disc which can do with DVDs what a CD-R can do to CD audio discs: Perfect "back up"

    Now keep in mind that those plus discs isn't a format. The minus discs are. So, what we have here, is something realy - realy clever: The big hollywood ones, can force one way or the other the official format not to present a Disc capable to harm their interests. But they can't force a idepentent format like the plus discs. You see, in a way, those plus discs "emulates" DVD Video fuction, officially speaking... So, they can do whatever they wish to do, without any limitations..

    If the costumer can use those discs to "back up" easy commercial discs, in a reasonable cost, then he gonna do it. And what means "reasonable cost"? The common sence says that you have to pay for what you get. So:
    If a DVD-R discs let say costs 1 Euro per 4.7GB, then a DVD+R disc with a cost of 2 Euros for 9.2GB is simply reasonable. And if the cost is less, like 1.89 per 9.2GB DVD+R disc, it shows like a good deal!

    The bottom line is that for the very fist time, the plus format has the upper hand. And with the price logic I analyse here, the plus party can produce discs at the same prices they made them today, which may seems (and is...) expencive compared the dash discs, but when they gonna be 9.2GB gonna look cheap!
    You see, the plus party already have manufactures worldwide. They gonna change couple of machines there and with a minimum real cost gonna start produsing those new discs, they can sell in a almost double price and for the first time the costumer accept this!

    Now it is the dash format that runs to follow the market...
    Clever moove from Philips, indeed...

    About the burners: Did the 4X burners costed more the 2X burners? No. Did the dual format burners costed more the typical 4X burners? No.
    (they did for a while (2 months..) later there was exactly the same price!)
    My point: The new burners gonna cost the price of the burners they gonna replace in the market. Maybe they gonna be a bit more expencive first, but not for long!
    The way I see it, those burners gonna cost about 250 $ first, 200$ in 2 months after their first release and less than 180$ in 4 months later. Those burners also gonna burn 8X, 'cause 8X for 9.2GB means ~15 min. And this is "slow" from a psychological point of view.
    You see, a costumer needs to feel that he is able to burn a disc (ANY DISC!) at about 10 min. Less is fast, more is slow! 10 min is the barrier! Not for me and you, the ones of those forums, I talk about the mainstream costumer.


    Anyway, I belong to the dash party users, but if those plus 9,2GB discs turn cheaper, I don't have a single problem adapt them for my home movies (yes, I rarely back up DVDs, I have my DVB transmissions to play with and love them)
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    Who cares about burners that can burn twice as much as they do now?

    ... not me.

    Not long ago the debate was about blue laser and now this, no matter what you buy now there will always be something bigger and better a couple of years or so later, you'll always be playing catchup.

    I can backup a film from dvd9 now to a 4gb dvd and it looks like dvd quality to me so why would i need a burner that does the same thing for 3 or 4 times the price of a burner now?

    I'll just let the rich kids with plenty of money throw all their cash at the new technology bringing the prices down, then after a year and half i'll buy one for £100, and then stick two dvd quality films on one dvd.
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  5. SASI said:
    I think that it's not a matter of laser power. -RW and +RW disks require a higher laser output to erase, so the laser can be made to produce higher power.
    You are talking about a 4X laser? Will this be enough to go through to another layer? Maybe you could hack a FW and make it write but at what speed? Most likely 1X or less. This means it will take you 2hrs to write one full DVD+R9 disk. This also means your laser will be at max duty cycle for 2hrs. I am sure your drive will last very long under these conditions.
    You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip.

    RG
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  6. I am guessing that theoretically, it is possible to modify the f/w of an existing (perhaps not all) DVD recorder to record dual layer disks.
    if it is possible, someone will come up with a hacked firmware for dual layer burning if the manufacturers don't. My guess is that they won't even if they can -- too much money to be made...
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  7. Hold on a second here. There are many ways the two layer discs could work and most of them do not require increasing power. I would imagine having the layers react to the wavelength of the coherent light differently. So the bottom layer is 630nm and the upper layer is 660nm [numbers pulled from ass] then you just need two lasers or a single tuneable laser. Now, if you choose the lower level (the one closest to the laser head) to be compatible with current DVD+R wavelength then you have a compatible format.

    Modulating writing laser power would not be a nice solution to the problem.

    Originally Posted by RAAGAAman
    SASI said:
    I think that it's not a matter of laser power. -RW and +RW disks require a higher laser output to erase, so the laser can be made to produce higher power.
    You are talking about a 4X laser? Will this be enough to go through to another layer? Maybe you could hack a FW and make it write but at what speed? Most likely 1X or less. This means it will take you 2hrs to write one full DVD+R9 disk. This also means your laser will be at max duty cycle for 2hrs. I am sure your drive will last very long under these conditions.
    You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip.

    RG
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    Originally Posted by mixman380
    Thats cool that it would be cheap for a 8gig burner(which I would end up picking one up) but I just got my pioneer 106D 1 week ago. So say they do come out with them by mid next year then I just pissed away my money on my burner to sit in my closet. Think about it when they do release dual layer burners and there dvd media dosen't work on previous burners what is the point of owning a 4gig burner..then it goes back to what I was saying...bummer peepee in my closet :P

    But think about it. I'll bet there's not a person on this site that doesn't have old, outdated parts in their closet. I mean c'mon. We ALL upgrade our computers. It's impossible to stay up with the technology without eventually having to replace old parts with new parts. If you're lucky, you can sell smoe of those old parts off to other people. That's just the way it is with computers.
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    Originally Posted by overloaded_ide
    I am X
    You make very good points except I think the part about ripping. Unless they change comercail disks it will be the same thing as now, except they fit!
    The burner and the media to be burned onto has nothing to do with ripping. Course all the burner programs have to be updated for the larger media.

    As for tossing the current 4.7 gig drive in the closet, why??
    If it works, use it! We still will have 4.7 disks to buy, and many of the comercail and homemade DVDs will still be less than 4.7 gigs.
    Now for me I like to have most movies on their own disks unless a series!
    Now I would stick the 4 love bug movies or 6 Startreks onto fewer disks, like 2 movies on one 8.5 gig disk.

    But if only one movie, it goes on it's own disk.
    And just think how cheap those disks should get too
    True enough. I guess my previous post was only from my own point of view. In my business, I deal with data that is always MORE than 4.7 gigs, so I'm always having to compress the data before burning in onto a 4.7 gig disc. But you're right, for people that don't require compression programs, then there's no reason to have to get rid of their 4.7 burners. But for someone like ME, it would be an invaluable asset to be able to NOT have to resort to DVD Shrink, therefore maintaining 100% of the video quality.
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    Originally Posted by freestyler
    My main concern is: will dvd PLAYERS read these discs?

    If we think compatibility with certain media / drives is bad with 4.7 gb dvd-rs NOW, what about these dual layers

    Yes, they will be able to read the discs. THEY ALREADY DO. Any commercial movie you rent is on a dual layered, 8 gig disc. As a matter of fact, in the article that was posted about them, it was mentioned that people will NOT have to buy new DVD players, as the new dual layered blanks will be able to be read on any existing standalone DVD player. Only thing we'll have to replace are the 4.7 gig burners with the new burners if we want to be able to burn onto then at FULL capacity.
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    Originally Posted by Shtirlits
    Another question comes to mind.
    Will the new dual layer burners be backwards compatible with the current single layer media? Or, maybe, the strategy will be to “kill” the current media and the burners? I personally think that they will be, but have an open mind to entertain a theory about “killing” the old format. Any ideas?
    I don't see why not. To date, all cd/dvd burners have been backwards compatible with previous technology. Your 4x DVD burner can handle 2x DVD media, as well as ANY cd media that you throw at it. I'm sure that will continue to be the case. They HAVE to make it like that, otherwise not only will the chances of people buying it decrease, but their COMPETITION would eventually come up with the technology. And they're not going to let THAT happen, not if they want to bw able to sell their product......
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    Originally Posted by Northstar
    Who cares about burners that can burn twice as much as they do now?

    ... not me.

    Not long ago the debate was about blue laser and now this, no matter what you buy now there will always be something bigger and better a couple of years or so later, you'll always be playing catchup.

    I can backup a film from dvd9 now to a 4gb dvd and it looks like dvd quality to me so why would i need a burner that does the same thing for 3 or 4 times the price of a burner now?

    I'll just let the rich kids with plenty of money throw all their cash at the new technology bringing the prices down, then after a year and half i'll buy one for £100, and then stick two dvd quality films on one dvd.
    You're kidding, right? If you could back up from DVD9 to ANOTHER DVD9 without having to compress it, therefore retaining ALL of the video quality on a SINGLE DISC, as opposed to some/most of the quality, you're saying that you wouldn't take advantage of that technology, even when the price for that technology drops down to a level that you can afford? (which WILL eventually happen). Your post is self defeating. Put it this way, if you weren't willing to accept/purchase the technology, then you wouldn't be a member of this board. You said it yourself, you're using DVD5 technology NOW, which means that you've upgraded from VCR technology. You've ALREADY done exactly what you said above that you WOULDN'T do; upgrade to the current technology.
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  13. Yes that's true.
    But then again still you don't toss the DVD5 -r drive. If nothing else you can always use it as a reader Comercail DVD's are working the same.
    So what ever you can do with a DVD now you can do the same thing later
    Yes anyone wanting the 8.5gig burners won't have to shrink a DVD anymore, just a straight rip. Same as we do a DVD5. And if your ripping a DVD5 why waist a 8.5gig disk? Just burn a 4.7 disk. If your gonna try any disk to disk copies, well you read with the burner you have now and burn with the 8.5 drive.

    As for what disks do what. What's the big deal about larger disks anyway?
    You can't burn 4X disks on a 2x burner faster than 2x anyway right! So buy the disks you use and forget the others.

    Now it would be nice if the 8.5gig drives could burn normall 4.7 disk we use now since those will be much lower priced than the 8.5gig. Then you could use a cheap smaller disk for DVD5 copies instead of half an expensive 8.5 disk. But if not, keep your currunt burner as I said above,
    It's not going to magically die soon as the 8.5 drives come out!

    As for burning 8.5gig disks in the currunt burners, I don't think so!
    Maybe you could burn the bottom layer ok, but why even try? Those are going to be expensive disks and why buy them instead of cheap 4.7?
    NO WAY you will be burning 8.5gigs with a 4.7gig burner that I can think of. Most likely as another said it will be different wave lasers. Or maybe pointed at angles to controll which layer is burned. Most likely those 8.5 drives will have more lasers than our currant 4.7gig drives.
    overloaded_ide

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  14. You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip.
    Oh, believe me...you can
    -Yar, matey!-
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    Does any one remember the good old days when Hard drives were 5 gigs ? I think i made my point.
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    Originally Posted by i am x
    Originally Posted by Northstar
    Who cares about burners that can burn twice as much as they do now?

    ... not me.

    Not long ago the debate was about blue laser and now this, no matter what you buy now there will always be something bigger and better a couple of years or so later, you'll always be playing catchup.

    I can backup a film from dvd9 now to a 4gb dvd and it looks like dvd quality to me so why would i need a burner that does the same thing for 3 or 4 times the price of a burner now?

    I'll just let the rich kids with plenty of money throw all their cash at the new technology bringing the prices down, then after a year and half i'll buy one for £100, and then stick two dvd quality films on one dvd.
    You're kidding, right? If you could back up from DVD9 to ANOTHER DVD9 without having to compress it, therefore retaining ALL of the video quality on a SINGLE DISC, as opposed to some/most of the quality, you're saying that you wouldn't take advantage of that technology, even when the price for that technology drops down to a level that you can afford? (which WILL eventually happen). Your post is self defeating. Put it this way, if you weren't willing to accept/purchase the technology, then you wouldn't be a member of this board. You said it yourself, you're using DVD5 technology NOW, which means that you've upgraded from VCR technology. You've ALREADY done exactly what you said above that you WOULDN'T do; upgrade to the current technology.
    Maybe reading what i said instead of glancing at it would be a good idea

    I said i wouldnt buy one NOW if it was available, i would buy one when they dropped to £100. I also said that the quality i get from copying a dvd NOW and compressing it onto a dvd 4.7 looks like dvd quality to me, i cant see a loss of quality, im more happy with the quality.

    I only recently bought a dual format burner, i waited till the prices became acceptable to me, just as i'll wait till they are acceptable with the new ones

    I have only owned a dvd player around 6 months, again waiting till they were dirt cheap.

    So as you see, i never once said anything self defeating and that i wouldnt update to the newest technology. :P
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  17. I read in a local Swedish DVD magazine that *some* DVD-Burners will be able to burn the dual-layer discs, wether they are correct or not, I do not know, but I guess they have some sort of source for their information.

    Another question, will there be DVD18 discs availible? The Dual Sided Dual Layer discs? I own the Ultimate Edition of Terminator 2: Judgement Day. That disc contains both the orignal version and the extended version on one side (extended by almost 30 mins). It also features DTS audio and the orignial audio track -- on the same side. If you flip the disc, you'll get all the special features... and there's a lot! Anyways, for understandable reasons, I don't like to bring that massive aluminum case and when I travel (Beeeeep went the airport metal detector :P), therefor I'd like to back all that up for that reason... or maybe if I need to bring it along to watch it some place else or of a friend want's to borrow it... Which I'm a little sensitive about with such an expensive and limited edition disc. I also own a few Seasons of The X-Files in their expensive-a$$ $120 boxes... Another box you don't lend away without having hard to sleep at night.

    As I (and my colleauges/friends) make a lot of movies and presentations, the possibility to burn DVD9 and/or DVD18 would be an extreme boost! Picturing instead of weighing picture qualtiy to DTS-audio with just a Stereo 160kbit/sec secondary track, to the possibility to add Full Video Quality, Full DTS-sound and another 5.1 DD @ 448 kbit/sec. Still we'd have a lot of space for the blooper reels and other "special features" if we like.

    I'm gonna pick one up ASAP.

    Chazzie
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  18. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    You can send those 1+GB HD's, 24+CDRW's, 1-4x DVDRW's, PI's,II's,II's and other "not-so-bleeding edge" devices my way. I'll gladly take them; I can find some uses for them. JBOD's, RAID's, Networked burn banks, swappable boot drives, auxilliary servers. Things don't have to be cutting edge to still be quite useful.

    There's also a lot of speculation going on here about how this technology is going to work, but I'll bet NOBODY here actually knows for sure.
    I'll make an educated guess that the additional feature of being able to recognize 2 different burn layers and/or wavelengths would require the addition of logic and regulating chips that would go beyond some simple firmware upgrade. Therefore, I would also guess that DualLayerRecordables would be play/read-compatible with players and ROM's, but less so than Recordables currently are. Also, they might barely be burn-compatible with SL Burner/Recorders, but only up to the SL limit. I would actually bet money ($20US) that NO SL burners would be retrofittalbe/upgradeable to DL.

    my 2¢,

    Scott
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  19. Originally Posted by Cornucopia
    You can send those 1+GB HD's, 24+CDRW's, 1-4x DVDRW's, PI's,II's,II's and other "not-so-bleeding edge" devices my way. I'll gladly take them; I can find some uses for them. JBOD's, RAID's, Networked burn banks, swappable boot drives, auxilliary servers. Things don't have to be cutting edge to still be quite useful.
    Need a ZipDrive and a ZX81?


    Originally Posted by Cornucopia
    There's also a lot of speculation going on here about how this technology is going to work, but I'll bet NOBODY here actually knows for sure.
    I'll make an educated guess that the additional feature of being able to recognize 2 different burn layers and/or wavelengths would require the addition of logic and regulating chips that would go beyond some simple firmware upgrade. Therefore, I would also guess that DualLayerRecordables would be play/read-compatible with players and ROM's, but less so than Recordables currently are. Also, they might barely be burn-compatible with SL Burner/Recorders, but only up to the SL limit. I would actually bet money ($20US) that NO SL burners would be retrofittalbe/upgradeable to DL.
    So true...
    You stop me again whilst I'm walking and I'll cut your fv<king Jacob's off.
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  20. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by tompika
    Need a ZipDrive and a ZX81?
    I could take a Zip drive. They're good for Emergency/Rescue booting and are often faster as a sneakernet solution than CD's. VeryHighSpeed CDRW's that are packet written may be faster, but I don't like their driver baggage on most of my computers (either at work or at home).

    Scott
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  21. I purchased a Sony DRX510UL External 4X DVD±R(W) burner for $350. I went to Sony's online hardware support, and here's the conversation:
    "I recently invested in a DRX510UL. Dual-layer DVD+R(W) burning will be available in 2004. What is the probability that you will make a firmware update available for my drive to support dual-layer burning?"

    "I have no information that indicates any updates to dual layer anytime in the near or extended future. My training has indicated Sony will only have single sided burning for their DVD market."
    In other words, they won't tell us anything. Otherwise, they might lose sales of their soon-to-be-obsolete single-layer burners. Naturally, I'd like a firmware update. But mostly, I just want a firm answer. If "no," I can sell my burner now before the price plummets. If "yes," I'll keep it. What would you guys do? Assume no firmware, and sell it?
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  22. I think its almost inevitable that old SL burners will NOT be upgradeable to DL, its like the situation of std CDr and DD-CDR (sony only). A lot of cdr burners will burn 90min and even 99min cDR but that requires no difference in the laser head rather the drive mechanism and head placement. I personally have held off buying a dvdr burner, but will do soon when they start appearing on the 2nd hand market at quite exceptional prices!. And all those who rush out and buy the new DL burners will be posting here saying "what media works..." "it wont do xxx" . The bleeding edge of technology or the cost effective trailing edge?
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  23. Member
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    PERFECT QUALITY COPIES WILL FINALLY BE ATTAINABLE WITHOUT HAVING TO DO ANYTHING EXTRA!
    What good is ALL this technology if you can't use it:

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/33807.html
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