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  1. Hi,

    All the manuals, methods I could find on dvdrhelp to do PAL to NTSC involves changing the FPS and then modify the sound track accordingly. To me those a "bad" methods. If a PAL movie takes 2469.0 seconds to play then after the conversion it must still take 2469.0 seconds to play it, not less (by increasing fps to 29.97) or more (by decreasing fps to 23.976).

    I don't want to touch the audio track at all, I don't want to use Besweet and risk a lost in quality or 5.1 encoding.

    Is there a way to this? Isn't possible to use somekind of software that will kind of "re-capture" the movie but will not simply change the speed at which the movie will play?

    Thanks in advance for your help!
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    You need to produce 6 frames for every 5 you started with.
    You will have to invent a nonstandard telecine pattern.
    Avisynth can do that.
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  3. Idea: How about playing from a DVD player that will play Pal by converting it to NTSC (Apex), disabling copy protection, and recording onto a seperate stand alone DVD recorder?
    I've done this to VHS from comp.'s DVD-drive.
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  4. Thanks FOO, I'll try to understand how to do this tomorrow. If I can find the perfect "recipe" I'll post it here in hope it will be added to the "guides" section.

    Not sure why no one else wanted to do this before myself. Looks like a must to me!

    Gabe, well I'm trying to avoid buying a new DVD player. Of course if I buy one that does the PAL to NTSC I wouldn't have to do all this but I like my current player so I would prefer to do the conversion.

    Thanks!
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  5. Originally Posted by jimcgr
    Not sure why no one else wanted to do this before myself. Looks like a must to me!
    Because people want to do it the right way, and return the film to it's native 24fps?
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  6. Well they are doing it by making the movie play faster or slower. I'm sure this is not what they did in studio.

    I'm sure if you compare let say Harry Porter DVD region 1 and region 2, the movie will be the exact same length to the second...
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  7. FOO,

    Thanks so much for the tip about AVISYNTH! I don't don't if you knew it but it has a function called ConvertFPS:

    http://www.avisynth.org/index.php?page=FPS

    It does just what I need! I haven't tested it but reading this page of the manual is really exciting!

    Now I would really like to understand why not ALL conversion methods are not using this. I mean it looks really simple, no need of changing the sound or anything. What's the catch
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  8. Originally Posted by jimcgr
    What's the catch
    The catch is, the movie was originally filmed @ 24fps. You PAL folks watch a version that's 4.03% faster than it should be.

    When you convert back to NTSCFilm (never convert to straight NTSC 29.97fps) you return the film to it's original frames per second, and have to slow down the audio accordingly.
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  9. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jimcgr
    Hi,

    All the manuals, methods I could find on dvdrhelp to do PAL to NTSC involves changing the FPS and then modify the sound track accordingly. To me those a "bad" methods. If a PAL movie takes 2469.0 seconds to play then after the conversion it must still take 2469.0 seconds to play it, not less (by increasing fps to 29.97) or more (by decreasing fps to 23.976).
    Well this is not true. Film is 24fps and NTSC is either progressive (23.976fps) or interlaced (29.970fps) and either way the "speed" of NTSC is about the same as film or 24fps

    For PAL the 24fps film source is simply played back at 25fps instead of 24fps so this is an increase of approximately 4% which is not really noticeable.

    So a film that runs 24fps and is 90 minutes long will be 90 minutes in NTSC but in PAL it would be 86 minutes and some odd seconds long.

    So technically when you convert PAL to NTSC there should be an increase in the running time which thus requires an audio change to sync properly.

    Originally Posted by jimcgr
    I don't want to touch the audio track at all, I don't want to use Besweet and risk a lost in quality or 5.1 encoding.
    Admittingly this can be a bit tricky. I've found that this can be done using BeSweet and either the BeSweet GUI or AC3Machine. It does work rather well if done correctly.

    Originally Posted by jimcgr
    Is there a way to this? Isn't possible to use somekind of software that will kind of "re-capture" the movie but will not simply change the speed at which the movie will play?
    Yes there is a way to convert PAL to NTSC in that the running time of the newly converted NTSC video matches that of the original PAL. This method is actually recommended when the PAL source is INTERLACED however if the PAL source is PROGRESSIVE then you will get overall better results by simply slowing it down from 25fps to 23.976fps for NTSC. Anyways the method that does the conversion so that the running time of the converted NTSC is the same as the original PAL has been pretty much more-or-less perfected by Xesdeeni and documented on his website:

    http://www.geocities.com/xesdeeni2001/StandardsConversion/

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
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    If you do a research you will find out that in fact there are programs degned to do PAL-NTSC-PAL conversion in 1 step without going through convoluted scripts and lot of guesswork as to what the outcome might be.
    I was bothered by a similar question that there must be a "better way".
    What I have discovered so far is:
    1. Atlantis by http://www.dvfilm.com/atlantis/
    2. Advanced Converter or DV standards converter by http://www.focusinfo.com/products/firestore/dvconversionsuite/dvcsuite.html
    3. Vegas 4
    4. Adobe Premiere
    5. All Video Converter.

    After testing demos and various converters I came to the conclusion that simple drag and drop offered by DVFilm is what you probably want.
    Atlantis and DV Standards Converter offer DV AVI conversion only. Other 3 can handle all ther formats (All Video Conv. does MPEG (don't know 1 & 2 or only 1)). Try Atlantis demo (watermark, but fully functional). Quality is very good and can't beat the simplicity. You just drag and drop onto an open window, that's it. As with any standards conversion method you may get slight line flicker (barely noticable) but that's to be expected. Detail and color is as close to the original as it gets. Comparing to apps listed in 3,4 and 5 results are better by a notch. Remember, better quality input, better the output. Vegas 4 and Premiere do a really good job although I was not impressed by the detail rendering. Although still sharp, it became softer then the Atlantis output. This is what standards conversion really should be - EASY. Since this forum is about freeware and developing processes "on the cheap" no wonder you will not find a discussion about apps that are far from being just that. I'm as frustrated as you by facing script writing and engaging a whole palette of tools to do the task that may be easily automated if someone had an expertise in the field. Since I love making my own movies by the same token I do not see why I'd have to spend weeks discovering what was already done succefully by others. It's up to the individual to choose his own way. And to do that you gotta be informed. Good luck.
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    If you read the docs on ConvertFps, the last part says if it's film
    doing it the normal way looks better. Everybody isn't crazy.
    If going direct from 25 to 30 was good, people would do it more.
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    Originally Posted by jimcgr
    Well they are doing it by making the movie play faster or slower. I'm sure this is not what they did in studio.

    I'm sure if you compare let say Harry Porter DVD region 1 and region 2, the movie will be the exact same length to the second...
    Harry Potter region 2 is shorter than region 1. Commercial DVDd's and also PAL broadcast stations does increase the 24 fps film to 25 fps PAL by speeding it up. So if you want closer to the original length in NTSC then it's better to speed it down.

    Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Stone: Fullscreen - DVD Region 1: 152 minutes

    Harry Potter and The Philosophers Stone: Fullscreen - DVD Region 2: 147 minutes
    Ronny
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  13. Ok, well now I'm convinced that from a video point of view I should simply change the FPS instead of converting it. Still for people who want to do something simple I think ConvertFPS can be good since you don't have to do anything with the audio. I couldn't notice anything wrong with a converted "25FPS film" to "23.976" using ConvertFPS...

    Ok so now, with AviSynth, I'll use the AssumeFPS function instead of the ConvertFPS function. But this leads to another problem; the audio part... :

    - As soon as I look into an "who to" manual I always see things like "select 48Khz --> 44Khz" or "select Downmix", etc... It drives me nuts when I read things like that because it obviouly changes something to the quality of the sound. All tests I have done so far were obviously removing the 5.1 encoding because my Sub wasn't much active after that...

    What would be the best way to simply take an extracted .ac3 and to change its speed? Without of couse "changing the frequency", "Downmix the channels" or "compress it". ?

    Thanks!
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  14. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jimcgr
    Ok, well now I'm convinced that from a video point of view I should simply change the FPS instead of converting it. Still for people who want to do something simple I think ConvertFPS can be good since you don't have to do anything with the audio. I couldn't notice anything wrong with a converted "25FPS film" to "23.976" using ConvertFPS...

    Ok so now, with AviSynth, I'll use the AssumeFPS function instead of the ConvertFPS function. But this leads to another problem; the audio part... :

    - As soon as I look into an "who to" manual I always see things like "select 48Khz --> 44Khz" or "select Downmix", etc... It drives me nuts when I read things like that because it obviouly changes something to the quality of the sound. All tests I have done so far were obviously removing the 5.1 encoding because my Sub wasn't much active after that...

    What would be the best way to simply take an extracted .ac3 and to change its speed? Without of couse "changing the frequency", "Downmix the channels" or "compress it". ?

    Thanks!
    Use the newest BETA version of BeSweet and AC3Machine



    Notice that the original 5.1 AC-3 was only 224kbps which is rather low for a 5.1 AC-3 so I used 448kbps for the new one at 23.976fps (change from PAL to NTSC) but I've been told by other people that really all you need to do is MATCH the original bitrate so I guess I could have used 224kbps instead of 448kbps

    This works well if the original is 5.1 but when the original is 2.0 I use the BeSweet GUI and convert to a 2.0 WAV file (doing the 25fps to 23.976fps change) then I convert the 2.0 WAV file to AC-3 using another (very expensive) AC-3 encoder that I have access too since 2.0 AC-3 created by BeSweet is not 100% compatable with stand alone DVD players. Ironically the same stand alone DVD players that have problems with BeSweet created 2.0 AC-3 audio files seem to have NO PROBLEMS with 5.1 AC-3 audio files created with BeSweet using the method I documented in the screen shot above.

    Good Luck

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
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  15. Thanks!

    Will try it asap and let you know.

    Do you know why the -80ms delay?
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  16. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jimcgr
    Thanks!

    Will try it asap and let you know.

    Do you know why the -80ms delay?
    Because in my EXAMPLE the file has an -80ms delay as reported by the file name it was given when the AC-3 was extracted through DVD2AVI

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
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    Changing the audio involves changing the sample rate.
    You have to invent some new numbers
    I think
    it requires a digital filter with a length as the Least Common Multiple
    of both rates. If you want to go from 3 samples per sec to 4 samples
    per second, you construct a digital filter with 12 taps and grab every
    3rd sample instead of every 4th.

    The LCM of 48000 and 44100 is fairly large. and the LCM of 24 & 25 is
    600. That's a long filter.

    However , I think they work pretty well. I'd rather do that than
    trash the video.
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  18. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FOO
    Changing the audio involves changing the sample rate.
    You have to invent some new numbers
    I think
    it requires a digital filter with a length as the Least Common Multiple
    of both rates. If you want to go from 3 samples per sec to 4 samples
    per second, you construct a digital filter with 12 taps and grab every
    3rd sample instead of every 4th.

    The LCM of 48000 and 44100 is fairly large. and the LCM of 24 & 25 is
    600. That's a long filter.

    However , I think they work pretty well. I'd rather do that than
    trash the video.
    Well if you are converting a PAL DVD source to NTSC then you have 48k audio to begin with so when you convert the audio you aren't doing anything other than 48k ---> 48k ... at least in so far as the sampling rate.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
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    I thought PAL to NTSC was ....
    slow 25 to 24 . This requires the audio resample
    then pulldown the 24 to 30 - no audio resample
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  20. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FOO
    I thought PAL to NTSC was ....
    slow 25 to 24 . This requires the audio resample
    then pulldown the 24 to 30 - no audio resample
    Well if you take the PAL video and slow it down from 25fps to 23.976fps then yes you have to change the audio but remember that DVD audio is already 48k so at no point does it require you to go to 44.1k and then back to 48k

    That was all I was trying to say.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
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  21. Another thing I need to ask since you convinced me to use AssumeFPS... Here's the settings I found for AviSynth to change 25FPS FILM to NTSC-I :

    DirectShowSource("D:\Tgp\rip\vts_01_1.vob") + ...
    AssumeFPS(23.976)
    AssumeFrameBased
    SeparateFields
    SelectEvery(8, 0,1, 2,3,2, 5,4, 7,6,7)
    Weave

    This seems to give a really good NSTC 29.97 output but before I run it I would like to know if you are ok with this, are those the best possible settings to do this operation? I only have a 900Mhz and it takes me 20 hours to process 40 minutes of video so I want to make sure before I click "run"
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  22. Member adam's Avatar
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    You should never convert progressive PAL directly to 29.97fps. There are dozens of reasons why this is lower quality and harder to work with. Simply put in the assumefps(23.976) command and leave it at that. Then after encoding apply pulldown flags. This stores the video at 23.976fps and lets the dvd player do the conversion to 29.97fps. Almost no commercial NTSC DVDs ever actually store the video at 29.97fps. Its completely impractical and is actually much harder to work with. Of course don't forget to include your resize command either. You've got to resize to an NTSC compliant resolution.

    Your current method may work ok for you, but I STRONGLY suggest running your vob file through dvd2avi to create a d2v file and then use mpeg2dec to load that into avisynth instead. Directshow is meant for playing back material, not for decoding it so that you can re-encode it. Direct show is completely unstable for this purpose. Don't be suprised if you get crashes, sync problems, corrupted frames etc...

    THIS is the script you should be using...

    mpeg2source("D:\Tgp\rip\vts_01_1.d2v")
    AssumeFPS(23.976)
    BilinearResize(720,480)

    BTW, this should take less time to encode as well because you have 20% less frames to encode, not to mention significantly less processes to run in your frameserver.
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  23. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    When I convert a PAL DVD to NTSC I first RIP it in FILE MODE MAIN MOVIE ONLY FILES using DVD DECRYPTER.

    Then I run the VOB files through DVD2AVI version 1.76

    I convert the audio with BeSweet and use AC3Machine if it is 5.1 AC-3 otherwise I use the BeSweet GUI and convert to a WAV then convert back to AC-3 with the AC-3 ENCODER that comes with Scenarist. The Scenarist is a better quality AC-3 encoder than BeSweet since some DVD players do not like 2.0 AC-3 audio files created with BeSweet although they seem to have no problem with 5.1 AC-3 audio files created with BeSweet. Go figure. Make sure you use the newest BETA versions of both BeSweet and the BeSweet GUI and the newest version of AC3Machine.

    Anyways running the VOB files through DVD2AVI gives you a project file (aka FILENAME.D2V)

    I use AviSynth version 2.08

    Here is my script if the PAL source is PROGRESSIVE

    Code:
    LoadPlugin("mpeg2dec.dll")
    mpeg2source("D:\MOVIE\VIDEO_TS\movie.d2v")
    LanczosResize(720,480)
    AssumeFPS(23.976, true)
    If the PAL source is INTERLACED then I use the following script which uses Xesdeeni's SmoothDeinterlacer plug-in which you can get from his website (see my link in previous post)

    Code:
    LoadPlugin("mpeg2dec.dll")
    LoadPlugin("SmoothDeinterlacer.dll")
    mpeg2source("D:\MOVIE\VIDEO_TS\movie.d2v")
    SmoothDeinterlace(doublerate=true)
    LanczosResize(720,480)
    ChangeFPS(59.94)
    SeparateFields()
    SelectEvery(4,1,2)
    Weave()
    This second method does not require that you change the audio since the running time of the newly converted NTSC video will match that of the original PAL video.

    BTW I like LanczosResize because it tends to produce a slightly sharper picture than BiCubic and Bilinear look like crap to me (way too soft).

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
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  24. This leads me to yet 3 more questions / comments:

    1. I would like to check my dvd2avi (v. 1.77.3 ) with you guys:

    Video / iDTC Algo. --> 32 bit SSE MMX
    Video / Field Operation --> None
    Video / Color Space --> YUV
    Video / YUV to RGP --> TV Scale
    Video / Luminance Filter --> ( both parameters to 0)
    Video / Clip & Resize (left as is)

    Audio: I disabled it since I will extract ac3 directly with Ac3Tool.

    This looks ok

    2. When I try load to load a 23.976 movie into TMPGEnc DVD Author it tells me the file in invalid. This is why I tried to go directly to a 29.97 format. What is the best way to author a 23.97 so that the pulldown method gets done?

    3. About the way you guys are resizing, isn't it bad to affect the aspect ratio like this? I mean the PAL rectangle is 720 x 576, if we want to convert this into NTSC without affect the aspect we basically have to put a 600 x 480 rectangle into the NTSC 720 x 480 rectangle leaving black bars on the sides. Am I wrong with this? This is why I wasn't resizing, I wanted to do it directly into TMPGEnc by selecting the video arrange method "Full Screen Keep Aspect Ratio" ...

    Thanks again for this very informative chat!
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  25. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jimcgr
    This leads me to yet 3 more questions / comments:

    1. I would like to check my dvd2avi (v. 1.77.3 ) with you guys:

    Video / iDTC Algo. --> 32 bit SSE MMX
    Video / Field Operation --> None
    Video / Color Space --> YUV
    Video / YUV to RGP --> TV Scale
    Video / Luminance Filter --> ( both parameters to 0)
    Video / Clip & Resize (left as is)

    Audio: I disabled it since I will extract ac3 directly with Ac3Tool.

    This looks ok
    Yes that is correct although in the future if you are using DVD2AVI then you might as well just let it demux the audio for you as well ... no need for additional steps there.

    Since you are using TEMPGEnc you should add this to the very end of your AviSynth AVS script:

    ConvertToRGB()

    Or you can NOT add that line but instead use RGB mode in DVD2AVI selecting PC scale.

    In fact I think that might be the better option since TMPGEnc seems to get very confused over YUV/YUY2 type inputs and there was a big thread on here not too long ago about that and the dreaded option in TMPGEnc called, "Output YUV data as Basic YCbCr not CCIR601". This option is NOT checked by default and that seems to be the correct method when you are importing an RGB PC SCALE (0-255) video. So since you have the benefit of using a DVD source and DVD2AVI I think you will get overall better results if you use RGB PC SCALE in DVD2AVI and leave the default (which is NOT checked) for that dreaded "Output YUV data as Basic YCbCr not CCIR601" option.

    If you were using CINEMA CRAFT ENCODER (aka CCE) then I would definately use YUV TV SCALE as your DVD2AVI settings.

    I know that is a bit confusing but this is digital video we are talking about

    Originally Posted by jimcgr
    2. When I try load to load a 23.976 movie into TMPGEnc DVD Author it tells me the file in invalid. This is why I tried to go directly to a 29.97 format. What is the best way to author a 23.97 so that the pulldown method gets done?
    Well you are using TMPGEnc to do your MPEG-2 encoding correct?

    I use the WIZARD mode and when you load the AviSynth AVS script the WIZARD should see that it is PROGESSIVE and automatically set it to NON-INTERLACED. If you go into the EXPERT settings and click on the VIDEO TAB you should see that it says the following:

    FRAME RATE: 23.976 fps (internally 29.97 fps)
    ENCODE MODE: 3:2 pulldown when playback

    Originally Posted by jimcgr
    3. About the way you guys are resizing, isn't it bad to affect the aspect ratio like this? I mean the PAL rectangle is 720 x 576, if we want to convert this into NTSC without affect the aspect we basically have to put a 600 x 480 rectangle into the NTSC 720 x 480 rectangle leaving black bars on the sides. Am I wrong with this? This is why I wasn't resizing, I wanted to do it directly into TMPGEnc by selecting the video arrange method "Full Screen Keep Aspect Ratio" ...
    Well you are wrong and we are right
    The resize method to 720x480 (from 720x576) is correct because it actually "makes" the 576 fit within the 480 without "crushing" it or "cutting" anything off. Sort of like "resamples" it to make it fit. Think of it this way ... for PAL 576 = 100% height but for NTSC 480 = 100% height so it makes it fit without the aspect ratio distortion you are thinking about.

    You should use FULL SCREEN as your VIDEO ARRANGE METHOD in TMPGEnc and not FULL SCREEN (KEEP ASPECT RATIO).

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
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  26. FulciLives,

    You wrote:

    "If source is PAL INTERLACED...

    LoadPlugin("mpeg2dec.dll")
    LoadPlugin("SmoothDeinterlacer.dll")
    mpeg2source("D:\MOVIE\VIDEO_TS\movie.d2v")
    SmoothDeinterlace(doublerate=true)
    LanczosResize(720,480)
    ChangeFPS(59.94)
    SeparateFields()
    SelectEvery(4,1,2)
    Weave() "

    What if source is NTSC INTERLACED?? Not quite sure why the framerate becomes "59.94" (2 frames for every 1??) and why 'SelectEvery(4,1,2)..
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  27. Член BJ_M's Avatar
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    not saying any other methods are bad or anything - but Video Size Calculator by Gunnar Thalin can be of great use to someone to calculate conversion sizes ...

    get it here: http://biphome.spray.se/gunnart/video/
    "Each problem that I solved became a rule which served afterwards to solve other problems." - Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
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  28. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jbenj01
    FulciLives,

    You wrote:

    "If source is PAL INTERLACED...

    LoadPlugin("mpeg2dec.dll")
    LoadPlugin("SmoothDeinterlacer.dll")
    mpeg2source("D:\MOVIE\VIDEO_TS\movie.d2v")
    SmoothDeinterlace(doublerate=true)
    LanczosResize(720,480)
    ChangeFPS(59.94)
    SeparateFields()
    SelectEvery(4,1,2)
    Weave() "

    What if source is NTSC INTERLACED?? Not quite sure why the framerate becomes "59.94" (2 frames for every 1??) and why 'SelectEvery(4,1,2)..
    That script is used to convert a PAL INTERLACED DVD video to INTERLACED 29.970 fps NTSC

    As for why it works ... well I only sorta kinda understand it ... this was something that Xesdeeni came up with.

    So I don't really understand it 100% but I've used it many times on INTERLACED PAL DVD sources for the purpose of creating a NTSC DVD and it works. It does create a sort of "odd" interlaced pattern when viewed on a PC monitor but it looks absolutely normal on a television. I believe that this is similiar to the type of conversion that a DVD player does when converting PAL to NTSC on-the-fly.

    That's all you need to know

    You want more info go visit Xesdeeni's site:

    http://www.geocities.com/xesdeeni2001/StandardsConversion/

    Xesdeeni also has a AviSynth script for converting INTERLACED 29.97 FPS NTSC to INTERLACED PAL

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
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    looking at Xesdeeni guides (lot of good hard work he put in that -- glad i have software and hardware that does it quicker at superb quality) - i notice one little error (minor)

    it shows film -> dv conversion at 29.97i NTSC

    it really should be film to -> DV conversion @ 23.976p + 3: 2 pulldown applied (which is supported by DV avi files) ...

    Vegas and a few other NLE can do this ...
    "Each problem that I solved became a rule which served afterwards to solve other problems." - Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
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  30. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    May 2003
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    Originally Posted by BJ_M
    looking at Xesdeeni guides (lot of good hard work he put in that -- glad i have software and hardware that does it quicker at superb quality) - i notice one little error (minor)

    it shows film -> dv conversion at 29.97i NTSC

    it really should be film to -> DV conversion @ 23.976p + 3: 2 pulldown applied (which is supported by DV avi files) ...

    Vegas and a few other NLE can do this ...
    It's a great website with all the info he has but it is a wee-bit rough around the edges.

    Still I wouldn't be enjoying INTERLACED PAL ---> NTSC conversions without his great work

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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