Looking for a REAL PAL to NTSC method

[dragpeace]

Sometimes you have to ask: Instead of 'How do I?", ask 'Should I in the first place?'

I understand completely what you are saying. Certainly, in the long run, it's probably better just to buy a DVD player that can play PAL DVDs. My "rationalization" answer is that I already have two DVD players (one is really an SACD player) and a pretty high quality system. I don't want to add another DVD player just for my few PAL DVDs, especially as I don't have room in my cabinet.

However, the REAL answer is that this has become a challenge, and I like challenges. Despite the frustration, I'm actually having fun trying to figure this out!

Graham

[FOO]

Good answer. I do all sorts of silly bullshit purely for the hell of it.

[dragpeace]

Good answer. I do all sorts of silly bullshit purely for the hell of it.

I'm glad I'm not the only one!

Graham

[dragpeace]

SUCCESS!!! SUCCESS!!!!

After 21 hours of encoding, I have a beautiful video. Now I just have to put it all back together. Wonderful! Thanks VERY much to all of the folks here who helped, especially Fulci. You guys are the best!

I do have a couple of final questions:

1. I'm still somewhat confused about the setting in TMPGenc for Average bitrate (using 2-pass VBR). I understand maximum should be around 8000 (with an absolute max of 9800), and minimum should be around 2000, but what exactly does average bitrate do? My understanding was that VBR would find the appropriate rate within the max and min boundaries. Therefore, why do we have to set an average, and what is an appropriate setting?

2. Based on your experience, when the encode is ongoing, how careful do you have to be about leaving the PC alone? Is it pretty touchy about whether or not you open up a Word document, or dial into the Internet, for example? Obviously, you want to leave it alone as much as possible, but given the possibility of 20 hour encodes, there might be occassions where you have to get something from the computer. I'm very hesitant to touch it, based on my experiences with audio and CDRs, but I wondered what was appropriate with this encoding stuff. I'm just curious what your experiences are, more than anything.

Thanks again, guys. This was a real learning experience! I now feel like I can give some basic advice to others.

If I find a Progressive PAL DVD, I'll probably be back to this thread.

Graham

[FOO]

1. The average will determine the filesize. If you want to fit a video
on a DVD , the avearge rate is the only factor relating playing time to
file size.

2. You can screw with your computer all you want. Except
a. If you do another process that uses lots of memory or disk,
the time taken by both can easily take TEN times what
they would take to run sequentially.
b. If you run something flaky and it crashes the system you lose
previous work.

playing on the internet works fine all day

[FulciLives]

Basically what FOO said (second time this THREAD you beat me to the punch).

Glad you got it to work Grahm.

I take it the video is playing back smooth now without any other issues?

It seems so many people dispute this method which I try to spread around but so few seem to ever listen to me.

Also most of the thanks should really go to Xesdeeni for figuring this shit out in the first place!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[dragpeace]

1. The average will determine the filesize. If you want to fit a video on a DVD , the avearge rate is the only factor relating playing time to file size.

I get it. I was confusing maximum and average. I have it figured out now. Thanks!

Fulci, it seemed to work out just fine! The video looks good and the audio matches perfectly. It's a very nice conversion.

Now that I have it all working, it really isn't too difficult. The only problem is really time (although it helps to know that I can use the PC while it is encoding). The problem all along seemed to be the MPEG2DEC.dll file that I was using - I'll know from now on to try some different things.

Of course, dealing with progressive stuff seems a little more complex, but I'll save that for another day.

Graham

[FulciLives]

Of course, dealing with progressive stuff seems a little more complex, but I'll save that for another day.

Graham

Actually PROGRESSIVE is MUCH easier. You just have to use BeSweet to change the audio which is a bit tricky but once you get it working ... again not much to it.

As for the video ... the easiest way using TMPGEnc when doing PAL DVD to NTSC DVD is to simply load the PAL DVD (the D2V project file that is) directly into TMPGEnc ... select a NTSC DVD template and check the DO NOT FRAME RATE CONVERSION option. I can't remeber though if 3:2 pulldown encoding is auto down for you this way or not. You might have to manually "force" it. I usually use the following method:

The other method is to use the following AviSynth AVS script:

LoadPlugin("mpeg2dec.dll")
mpeg2source("D:\MOVIE\VIDEO_TS\movie.d2v")
LanczosResize(720,480)
AssumeFPS(23.976, true)

Of course you would use the correct version of MPEG2DEC as per your version of AviSynth and adjust your DIR PATH info to your own D2V file.

Kinda makes you cry how easy it is once you see the script huh?

Of course doing the audio CAN be a challenge sometimes. The BeSweet GUI doesn't seem to work well when the source is a 5.1 AC-3 but I've found that the AC3Machine works even better as a front end to BeSweet when doing these conversions.

Of course you have the BeSweet AC-3 issue. Don't know why but if you adjust a 5.1 AC-3 to 5.1 AC-3 then no problems but if you adjust a 2.0 AC-3 to 2.0 AC-3 some DVD players don't like it (supposedly a bug with BeSweet or rather the AC-3 encoder it uses).

The solution with a 2.0 AC-3 file is to do the conversion from 25fps to 23.976fps while also converting it from 2.0 AC-3 to a STEREO WAV file. Then use another AC-3 encoder to put the WAV back into a 2.0 AC-3

Of course the TRICK there is that there aren't too many freeware/inexpensive ways of converting a STEREO WAV to a 2.0 AC-3 other than BeSweet.

There is always a problem in this damn hobby

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

I also just suggest getting a PAL-capable player.

[FulciLives]

I also just suggest getting a PAL-capable player.

Why make life so easy?

And although some region free DVD players do do a very nice PAL to NTSC conversion I still think the computer method gives you better results ... assuming you can use a high enough bitrate in the end ... which is of course dependant on how long the movie is.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Hi all,

Yes, I'm into that as well......

What is the BEST (quality wise) method for that, regardless software costs ?

Should Vegas 4 or Adobe Premiere Pro 7 make it properly faster and in better quality ?

Comments welcome...

Andre

[proxyx99]

Going from MPEG2 -> MPEG2 none of those will give satisfactory results, unfortunately. Tested both and dropped. better way (surprisingly) was to MPEG2 -> DV avi -> trnsfer to other format in avi DV -> reencode to MPEG2. Way better result. Why? Don't ask me.

[FOO]

MPEG2 -> MPEG2 is not possible if a resize is involved.

I will not believe that unnecessarily adding a lossy compression
step can improve anything. Think about it.

I'd like to hear why MPEG2 -> uncompressed video -> Mpeg2
is not the best way.

[FulciLives]

MPEG2 -> MPEG2 is not possible if a resize is involved.

HUH?

Then what do you call loading a D2V project file (created from a DVD which is MPEG-2) into TMPGEnc and/or CCE and re-encoding it?

I'm confused or did you just make a typo?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[dragpeace]

OK, I'm back for more advice. I took my converted video (PAL 25fps Interlaced -> NTSC 29.97 fps, for those that don't remember ) and authored a DVD from it. It plays no problem on my DVD player, and it's certainly watchable. The scenes without much motion are beautiful. However, in scenes with a lot of motion, there's almost a flicker on the moving bits, if that makes any sense. It's not a smooth motion - it's like an extremely fast "jerky" motion. You can ALMOST see the moving item in two places at the same time, although it's too quick to be positive. I'm not sure if I'm explaining it well, but I think that gives you some idea.

Is this something to do with the deinterlacing? Do you have any hints on how to improve this and make the movement "smoother"? Any advice would be appreciated.

Like I said, it's watchable, but it's certainly not smooth motion. However, I'm happy just to make it work, at this point!

Graham

[FOO]

The D2V thing involves an MPEG2 DEcoder to uncompressed video.
CCE and TMPGenc are seeing raw video at their input.

It can't be any other way . MPEG video is in the frequency domain.
It's not a picture anymore , you can't resize it (or do almost anything)

Hi all again,

Yes, I realize that there's no direct PAL MPEG to NTSC MPEG, I understand the AVSynth/TMPGEnc script quite well; as far as I understood, it works in the raw AVI frames, resizing them to new color format and frame rate;

Anyway, my question still is : doesn't it exist professional software that does it all in the "background" ?

Vegas 4 ?

For example, loading the PAL MPEG file at Vegas, and choosing "render as" DVD NTSC template, shouldn't do it all in the "background" ?

Same thing with Adobe Premiere Pro ?

I am not looking for "miracle" procedure and I might say that the AVS script is quite nice to deal with, I just want to understand it a bit better;

Thanks,

Andre

[proxyx99]

One is Atlantis from DVFilm, demo available, the other is Advanced Converter or sth like that. Both deal only with DV avi. As I indicated converting to DV, system transfer and reencoding to MPEG2 works better (much better result in terms of quality). Seems that on a DV level apps do a better job. Try MPEG2-> avi DV (need more space for the file), convert it and then reencode the result. You don't try it, you won't know.

Btw. How about your Google "skills". It's a simple querry.

[Gazorgan]

Ya'll are too funny! I have lots of PAL material (I love bad Kung-Fu movies). It's why I have a PAL capable monitor in the first place. I have converted in the past, but I can't concieve of converting everything. It's hundreds of hours of subtitled flying kung-fu antics.........<shudder>. I think I'll wait for the 10 Ghz CPU's before I attempt that :P

[dragpeace]

OK, now that I have this working, I'm looking to improve the process.

The problem that I have is interlacing effects (combing). Basically, two of every 6 frames have interlacing issues that "blur" moving images (i.e. interlacing lines of two images on the same frame). That is because of the way that the frames have been created with the following .AVS file:

LoadPlugin("C:\AVISYNTHPlugins\MPEG2DEC.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\AVISYNTHPlugins\SmoothDeinterlacer. dll")
MPEG2Source("G:\Olympiad2v.d2v")
SmoothDeinterlace(doublerate=true)
LanczosResize(720,480)
ChangeFPS(59.94)
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,1,2)
Weave()

So, my question is whether or not it is worth experimenting with different frame orders. Does converting to a .AVI file offer advantages in this area?

Just looking for ways to improve the conversion and thinking out loud, really. I'm studying the web for clues.

Graham

[proxyx99]

Ya'll are too funny! I have lots of PAL ...

What's funny or maybe sad,is that someone has to setup a forum like this so that some who are unable to resolve their own issues can come and make fun of those who spend their time thinking about somebody else's stuff.... and when not satisfied with the solution(s) writes "you're all funny". If so, then maybe how about you solve your own problem... Be your own master. Why drag here your own inability to research and produce a viable solution, have it tackeld with someone else's hands to later turn your back on everyone. Is it really so funny...? And who is ? Those inept or those who can't rest until someone's issue is solved?

Notning personal , but I see more and more posts like it, so I had to take position... places like this are becoming slowly hard to bear... I'm sure some will agree, those inept will follow with an attack...

[dragpeace]

Fulci,

I have one last question for you, and then I promise I'll leave you alone for a while (I hope you're still reading this thread! ).

I've seen you (and others) recommend the Cyberhome CH DVD-500 on here as a cheap solution to the PAL/NTSC problem. As you also have experience making conversions, I was wondering what you thought of the quality of that DVD player's conversions vs conversions you have achieved yourself. How does the DVD player stack up for playing PAL DVDs (to an NTSC tv), as opposed to the conversions you have done of PAL DVDs to NTSC DVDs? I'm just curious, as that player is so cheap that it certainly looks worthwhile as a solution.

Thanks!

Graham

[FulciLives]

The joys of the Cyberhome CH-DVD 500

This is definately one of the better if not they best stand alone DVD player when it comes to quality PAL DVD to NTSC format conversion.

However it is not perfect. It plays VCD but usually not SVCD (at least not well). It can do "properly" made DVD-R especially computer burned discs but doesn't like DVD-R from Panny stand alone DVD recorders. It doesn't like any flavor of DVD+R much but does play DVD+RW (go figure). As for DVD-RW I'm not sure as I never tested it.

It does however excell at playing back PAL DVD discs and converting them to NTSC. However there is a catch. There are some PAL DVD discs that the Cyberhome CH-DVD 500 has trouble with. Admittingly these appear to be "problem" discs in that they were most likely either not authored well and/or have encoding problems.

The catch you ask?

The original firmware for the CH-DVD 500 allowed the user to select an option called FORMAT and the default was AUTO with user selection change to AUTO, INTERLACED or PROGRESSIVE. Not sure what it means (it only works really when you are connected through composite or S-video) but setting it from the default of AUTO to PROGRESSIVE would make the conversion from PAL to NTSC nearly flawless on the otherwise "problem" PAL DVD discs. Otherwise AUTO does just fine and INTERLACED either looks the same as AUTO or VERY BAD again depending on the DVD.

The kicker here is that Cyberhome has updated the firmware several times via downloads from their website and ever since the first firmware upgrade the option called FORMAT has been locked to AUTO and cannot be changed by the user. So those "problem" PAL DVD discs cannot be properly converted to NTSC as a result.

I still have the original FIRMWARE on my Cyberhome CH-DVD 500 and have never had problems. It is unclear if new models still have the original firmware or if they too have an updated "locked" version.

Someone posted over on the NERD-OUT forums that they asked Cyberhome via e-mail for the original firmware (so as to change back to it) and Cyberhome sent this person a BIN file but not a CUE file and no one can figure out how to make it work (I have little experience or understanding myself of the whole BIN/CUE issue).

So ... if you were to buy a Cyberhome CH-DVD 500 now as in brand new it is unclear what firmware you will get. If you don't get the original firmware there is ... at least for now ... no way to flash back to the original.

I don't have a progressive TV display of any kind but I have read that the Cyberhome CH-DVD 500 will convert PAL video to 480p when you are using the component outputs in progressive output mode. From my reading it would seem that this "solves" the issues of those poorly authored/encoded PAL DVD discs meaning that if you have a progressive TV then even if you have a "locked" firmware that it might not be a big deal.

The Cyberhome CH-DVD 500 can easily be made region free using a "secret" code ala the remote control. Also it can be "tricked" into shutting off copy protection including both MACROVISION and CGMS/A which makes it the only PAL ---> NTSC DVD player to have that ability ... as least of those DVD players that do proper conversion such as the JVC and MALATA but don't let the low price of the Cyberhome CH-DVD 500 fool you as it's conversion is EVEN BETTER than the highly regarded JVC or MALATA models.

The aforementioned NERD-OUT website has message forums with a forum dedicated to CYBERHOME and that is where you can find all the little remote control tricks you need.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman