The people lose again

[kirpen]

By Andy Sullivan
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Copyright Office has opted to leave a controversial software-protection law largely in place, despite protests that it interferes with consumers' rights to watch movies and listen to music as they wish.

The Copyright Office late Tuesday created four narrow exemptions to the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which makes it a crime to hack copy-protection measures on software, DVDs and other products.

Academic researchers and consumer-rights activists had pushed for wider exemptions, saying it is overly protective and inhibits legitimate activities such as security research or making personal copies of digital products.

The Copyright Office said the law should not apply to lists of Web sites blocked by Internet filtering software, or video games and computer programs made for obsolete systems.

Users can also hack copy-protection systems on digital "ebooks" in order to have them read aloud by speech-recognition software or converted into Braille, the office said.

But hacking for other purposes -- such as to fast-forward through advertisements on DVDs or make personal copies of copy-protected music CDs -- are still not allowed.

Several software groups praised the ruling, saying it would not interfere with their ability to prevent unauthorized copying of their products.

But one group that has been critical of the DMCA said consumers would still suffer.

"Consumers are the real losers in today's ruling, because the librarian of Congress is ignoring the rights of nearly everyone who has purchased CDs and DVDs," said Gwen Hinze, a staff attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a San Francisco consumer-rights group.

The Computer & Communications Industry Association, an industry group known for its criticism of software giant Microsoft Corp (MSFT.O), said the Copyright Office should have OK'd software that would allow consumers to play DVDs on alternative computer operating systems such as Linux.
http://news.excite.com/tech/article/id/159551|technology|10-29-2003::13:24|reuters.html

[Styro]

But hacking for other purposes -- such as to fast-forward through advertisements on DVDs -- are still not allowed.

That is just plain wrong. Corporations have far too much control of our government. This amount of control just goes too far.

I've rented plenty of DVDs that have adverts on them and if the adverts are on the retail product then the product should be free. As example - my current rental of The Hulk has a long nasty advert in it where all you can do is watch (or maybe speed-forward). If I bought the retail version and it had this advert I would immediately create an archive without the advert (if possible). I consider the greater wrong to have put an advert in a retail product, especially an advert they force you to watch.

-- Styro

[kirpen]

Your right theres nothing like watching out of date ads on a product you paid for years ago.

[SaSi]

But hacking for other purposes -- such as to fast-forward through advertisements on DVDs -- are still not allowed.

They - movie producers - should go one step further. Embedded in the advertisment clip should be a 10 digits number, with each number flashing on the screen during the advertisment playback. The viewer should have to make a note of that number and key it on the remote after the advertisment in order to be able to activate the DVD and view the movie. (I am almost certain that the DVD navigation language allows for that.). The typical viewer will have to view the advertisment a few times until they are able to make a note of all the numbers, increasing the effectiveness of the advertisment.

Or so it should be...

And in a couple of months, the movie companies will start wondering why sales have gone flat dead and even rentals are suffering.


A very long time ago, 25 years ago, copying two LPs on a high quality cassette was feasible and practiced in excess by everyone. Nobody bothered, because buying the LP cost more or less twice as much as borrowing it and copying it on tape. Copying was - and is - a crime, but I guess 25 years passed and it can't be procecuted.

The fact is that the companies and RIAA didn't care. Because LP prices were low and people were buying and everybody was happy, even the few that copied a lot of LPs and the many that copied few LPs.

I was going to school at the time and could afford to buy LPs out of my pocket money. A lot of LPs.

I am working now and must confess to be making almost 200 times as much as my pocket money of 25 years ago. I should be buying 200 times more CDs now. I don't. I buy less. I copy none. If you don't believe me, I'l explain why: Most of the current production is crap and I am very choosy. Especialy because they are riddiculusly expensive.

On the other hand, I won't think twice before I buy a CD re-issue of a "classical" ROCK album of the '70s or '80s or '90s, especially if it's "nice priced" at about $15. Even if I have the LP version, I won't bother going through the recording, cooledit cleaning and CD recording phase (i.e. 3 hours worth of effort).

But the fact is that the media (CDs, DVD-Video, SACDs) are extremely overpriced and the quality varies from excellent to garbage with an average close to garbage.

And most of the consumer price tag goes to the circulation-advertisment people. So they invent stars, promote them, produce media and sell them at a hefty price. And they have the nerve to call this "art". Rubbish.

So, why should people waste their time and money and copy garbage? That's more of a philosophical question.

If copying was out of the question by any technical means, would people that currently buy pirated media buy the original overpriced ones? I doubt it. Would people buy original CD or SACD productions for $10? I would and believe that sales would grow. Would people buy a $15 DVD video? I believe many more than today would.

Consider this:
Going to the movies to see a film, you and your friend, costs about $15 (tickets, popcorn, and driving there and back). Why not buy a movie you didn't see or want to keep.

Ever since media or computer programs were invented, nothing was copy protected enough to avoid copying it.

Microsoft operating systems and applications were not copy protected until Windows XP. Microsoft was a s/w giant well before that and had revenues they didn't know how to spend before Windows 98.

Windows XP became copy protected and the only people suffering from this are legitimate users. Windows XP SP1 attempted to "rectify" the glitch and now you can find Windows XP SP1 Cds cracked and "inactivated".

SACD is supposedly not copyable (yet). If the format catches on, it will be hacked. I dare say that if it can't be hacked, it won't survive. (It's a bold statement and I may get a warning for this, but really, I don't advocate pirating or stealling. I just accept these acts as reality. The more expensive a media format is, the more benefit it presents to anybody that tries to copy it. If it's cheap, nobody would care. Finding the fine line in between is essential.)

And, to finish this spontaneus essay, I have a question: Every time I view a rented DVD, the splash banner says (in several languages) that this DVD must not be copied, reverse engineered or RENTED !!!. Is the rental shop or myself braking any laws by renting and viewing it?

[andkiich]

Sasi wrote:

Most of the current production is crap and I am very choosy. Especialy because they are riddiculusly expensive.

I believe that this is the true reason for the decline in CD sales. The record companies don't see that. They cannot admit that they pick some pretty crappy bands, and then their prices for CD's are more expensive than cassettes(WHY?!). The last CD that I got that I thought was actually worth the money was the last Rob Zombie compilation. It is a "best of" type album with 2 new tracks, plus a 45 minute DVD was included with all of his music videos. Retail price $13.99. All the other groups new release albums were $15.


I think in the last 2 years I bought a total of 4 commercial music CDs. Why? I have a self ruled "quality limit" on the music CD's I'm willing to buy. The CD has to be more than 30 minutes long as well as having AT LEAST 3 songs that I want to listen to more than once. I canot tell you how many times I've gotten burned buying music CD's for that one song on the radio that was killer and only to find that the album was like 20 minutes or there were 74 minutes of the worst music and remakes I've ever heard.

I'll admit that I used to download the song tracks off of Kazaa for the new albums. If I found that 3 songs were worth listening too, then I'd go out and buy the album, if not, I deleted the whole lot. Before that, I used to go to the music store where they would have the listening stations. It's really hard to find those nowadays. The last one that I know of is a book store of all places, and they usually have the new age and classic CD's pluged in.

[Vejita-sama]

I'd like to give the RIAA and the compaines the benifit of the doubt, but the truth is if you adjust for inflation the cost of buying music has gone up, a lot. At the same time the cost to produce that music (media) has gone way way down. So what't the problem:

Big names are getting more money? Studios did screw over artist in the past (and still do today). The MPAA says this is a huge drain on them (sort of like MLB says about it's players and the cost of a hotdog).

Number of titles? The movie studios produce a few big hits and lots of bombs. They use the hits to cover the costs of the bombs. The RIAA claims they don't do this thou. The MPAA does claim this is part of the reason for high DVD sale prices thou.

Pirates? As others have said as long as there have been LPs and tapes, people have copied music. It was actually EASIER to copy media 15+ years ago. Every stero came with a turntable and cassette recorder. Truthfully how many people out there really know how to use a CDR to copy music, or d/load MP3 -> CD, divx -> DVD, or copy a DVD

Like I said I'd like to give the RIAA the benifit of the doubt. But the truth is there's a disconnect between production costs and sale price. I've never been a big music person, but when I was in college (1993) I heard this Enya song and just had to buy it. IIRC the CD was ~$10. Here it is 2003 and CD prices have doubled to near $20/ea. WTF!?

Since I'm not a music person I just don't buy CDs. I only buy classical music on CD (very cheap $3-10 for 70min from great collections).

Back to MLB, that's a PERFECT example. No one is 'stealing' baseball. But it use to be that fans could go to a game. You can't just up an decide to that anymore. The cost of tickets (forget about food) is more than going out to a nice resteraunt. The strike didn't help, but basically they priced themselves out of the market. Then turn around and complain about: basketball or football eating into their market share so change their timeline around.

I think MLB is heading for some REAL problems 20-30 years from now because the current generation of kids really don't seem to give a damn about the sport

[gmatov]

It seems more like the labels put out junky music and try to convince you that it is THE thing, than that they promote 20 "talents" (Yeah, talents, what bullcrap, most couldn't carry a tune in a bucket.), and lose on 19 of them.

People buy the worst crap imaginable, for 1 or 2 songs, and no one complains

Hell, in LP days, you know it cost more to produce the media, cost more to ship the media (they're bigger, after all ) supposedly have truer fidelity, according to professionals.

If it cost a quarter to produce, sold for 5 bucks, 20 to 1.

CDs maybe a dime to produce, 20 bucks to buy, 200 to 1.

I may have some scratched LPs but they still play. Scratch a CD-DVD right and throw it away. It IS why we back up, isn't it.?

Vejita,

Baseball's a bad example. No one held a gun to Steinbrenner's head to make him pay those salaries.

I get into this argument with friends all the time. "If they weren't making XX millions of dollars, I could afford a ticket."

I guarantee you if they all played for the league minimum, the tickets would be the same price as they are now, and higher next season.

Our own Pittsburgh Penguins, a few years ago, raised the price of tickets 6 or 8 bucks, with the excuse that they would have to raise them the next year, so were really doing us a favor by raising them in a lump sum now rather than half now, half next year.

If I bought the damn things in the first place, I'd have been tickled pink to pay 39 bucks this year AND next, instead of 35 this year and 39 next, for the cheapest seat in the house, NOT.

There is not a hell of a lot of music today that I care to or WILL listen to. When I have a g'kid with me, they may listen to whatever, I just tune it out.

My own preference, classical, heavily violin, classic country, preferably lots of fiddle.

[BJ_M]

No politics -- this thread is drifting... see rules please ..

one more political remark such as several of the above that were made (now removed) will result in severe beatings ..
and locked thread ...

have a nice day !

[Styro]

one more political remark will result in [a] locked thread ...

Oh, no! Not the locked thread!!! Please don't lock the thread, we won't mention facts such as the current administrations favoritism to corporate hegemony causing the weakening of consumer laws and civil rights again (in this thread).

Now, what was the topic? Baseball? Sports? Ah, continueing weakening of consumer laws by corporate hegemony (without regard to politics). I don't know why the MPAA/RIAA keeps harping on this. DTV will be here soon enough and these groups can bring in new tech for distribution media. The MPAA can bring out blue-light lasers and change the disc size to larger than a 5 1/4" PC frame can support (hardware changes are more difficult to hack). The RIAA can also change some physical aspect of the CD so it cannot be used in a PC (or the drive can detect the difference and refuse to play content if not licensed). TV will digital with flags to control recording, commercial skipping, and analog degradation level (if even available).

Things are going to get much worse - prepare now.

-- Styro
(moderator can chop opening paragraph if so desired)

[MOVIEGEEK]

"Oh, no! Not the locked thread!!! Please don't lock the thread, we won't mention facts such as the current administrations favoritism to corporate hegemony causing the weakening of consumer laws and civil rights again (in this thread). "
Hypothetically speaking and this is NOT my opinion:wasn't DMCA enacted during a democratic administration with VP Al "we all must be wired to the internet and live in condos to save the planet"Gore?

[BJ_M]

http://www2.ari.net/hrrc/html/DMCA-leg-hist.html

This page sets forth all the relevant documents that comprise the official “legislative history” of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998, which often is referred to as the “DMCA” or as the “WIPO” or “WIPO Copyright Implementing Legislation.”

[BJ_M]

Reverse Chronological Legislative History
1. Final Text of Public Law No. 105-304, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998, as signed into law (Oct 28, 1998) (pdf, text)

2. President Clinton’s Remarks upon signing legislation into law (Oct. 28, 1998)(text)

[BJ_M]

this is acually good reading -- explains it very well ...

http://www2.ari.net/hrrc/html/jonathan_band_s_dmca_memo.html

[Canoe164]

I don't know when value began or ended. I saw Steve Ray Vaughn and the Fabulous Thunderbirds in concert for, I would have to guess, 15 bucks each for me and my women back in the mid 90's. The reason I went to see them was because I "heard" the music on the local station.
I had no pre-concieved notion of what he looked like or who owned the station I was listening to. I am now realizing that that is what matters to the new Corporate. I hope I am not thrown out of hear because I write something that rhymes with "Fear Kannel" when it comes to who chooses value or an end.

I support the artist that I find entertaining. Corporate has tried to tell me what is entertaining and there in lies the problem. They are wrong. Give the air-ways back to free minded folk to play the newest groove. Then a following will form and a CD will be sold.

Steve was a damn good value

[BJ_M]

Clear Channel you mean ?

[gmatov]

BJ,
We seem to be getting super sensitive, now.

Where, in the above, is there a political statement

I have looked, after your rant, and cannot see one.

If it's a joke, ha-ha. If it is not, where the hell is it?

George

[BJ_M]

BJ,
We seem to be getting super sensitive, now.

Where, in the above, is there a political statement

I have looked, after your rant, and cannot see one.

If it's a joke, ha-ha. If it is not, where the hell is it?

George

".....that were made (now removed) ..."

[gmatov]

BJ,

Yeah, I saw, didn't record, the "now were removed". Must not have seen them before they were removed, as saw nothing political. Might have been, but we're still getting mighty touchy around here.

Soon will be nothing we CAN talk about.

This IS still OT, is it not?

Cheers,

George

[red lion]

On the subject of poor cd sales i have a few reasons for this firstly most music nowadays is not near so good as in the 60s\70s\80s
here in the uk we now have over 20 music video channels on digital tv 24 hours a day.
another reason is price.
I would also question the amount the music industry says they lose because of piricy (how do they know that if the person that downloads say 2 cd,s worth of music will buy it if it was not availible online)
if the said person would not buy it if it was not free then there is no loss.
I know this is not always the case but i know people who have vast amounts of software that they did not pay for but if they had to they simply would not bother getting it (ie they have only got it because it was free)
I also understand the artists have to be paid but the problem now is people have had it free for so long.
Its very difficult to get someone to pay for something they have had free for so long.

[The village idiot]

hardware changes are more difficult to hack

Tell that to Direct TV (Hi Dave! )

Clear Channel you mean ?

Umm, you mean Cheap Channel right? (Yes first hand experience ).

[gmatov]

As to how much the entertainment industry claims to lose, I read an article today on piracy in China. It stated you could buy a CD-DVD for a dollar.

Hold on for a second.

I read another article, in a different magazine, about the maquiladoras in Mexico, in which the Bosses are telling the employees that they cost 3300 bucks a year in labor, and they can move their production to China and get it done for 2200 bucks.

If they work for the US standard 2080 hours a year, the Mexican worker gets a buck and a half an hour. The Chinese gets a buck and change

That means the disk in China is sold for an hour's wage. They didn't say 2 yuan, they said a dollar.

Yet that article said they lost 98 million in sales.

Hell's bells, a CD-DVD costs an hour's pay here for a working man, at least with a decent paying job (dig, dig ) like a S. California Supermarket worker.

They lie to us, and to the Gov every time they open their mouths.

Trust one of them? Not with his own daughter, let alone mine.

Cheers,

George

Oh, BTW, Jack Welch, aka "Neutron Jack", of GE said he wished he could put his factories on big barges so he could go country to country, for the lowest wages.

Helps explain why I would sooner buy a Panasonic branded device than a GE branded Pana product. The workers from the janitor up made a living in the Japanese factory, the top execs , shareholders, and the forklift operator at GE are the only ones here to make a living from that product.

This isn't politics, it's a fact of life.

[Styro]

hardware changes are more difficult to hack

Tell that to Direct TV

The problem with Direct TV (& others), is that they don't plan that the encryption eventually will be defeated. The don't plan on ways to update/upgrade the firmware via secure remote connection. If they planned ahead the cards they use to enable functions would have rotating encryption methods and formats. The sets would have to be connected to a phone line and/or internet connection for firmware updates for decoding not only the cards but also the channels. People using hacked hardware would be discovered and dealt with, or be left with very few channels to watch. These actions of lawsuits against people that bought card programming tools is as poorly thought out as the RIAA with lawsuits against people sharing music files. The heads of these major corporations fail to consider failure of encryption and any methods to postpone that failure. They believe the law should protect them against this the failures of encryption, but that is the wrong way to solve most problems.

-- Styro

[Canoe164]

Hell's bells, a CD-DVD costs an hour's pay here for a working man, at least with a decent paying job (dig, dig ) like a S. California Supermarket worker.


Ya know, Really, the computer has replaced the sewing machine of the prior century. Where do we go from here....?

[Shilohaura]

My biggest gripe with the whole downloading & copying problem is, like many have already said, they won't give you what you ask for and then gripe when you go after it!

For example - I belong to a fan base for a show that got cancelled due to supposed low ratings. However, there are MILLIONS of people around the world trying to find copies of this show to download! People who don't speak Spanish are even subscribing to a Mexican network out of Tiajuana just to watch reruns - whether they understand the language or not! One network has exclusive airing rights for 5 years - people hooked up to cable & satellite just to watch it. But they aren't airing it!! So tape trading & downloading are rampant! And TPTB are after them - have even shut down sites that simply uploaded homemade music videos using clips & music from the show!! If the show was such a low rater - if nobody was watching - if it's not even worth airing - then why gripe when the supposed very few people interested are trading tapes and downloading eps they missed???? Supposedly there's no comercial value in the show - that's why it got cancelled. And the homemade music videos??? No one made money off those!!! The only people who downloaded them were fans & TPTB gave no alternative offerings. They only served to promote the show for free! Would it not be more expedient to have asked the top sites that offered eps for downloading to put counters on their sites to see if popularity matched the ratings numbers?

Then they put out a soundtrack CD of the show, but it was missing a lot of the favorite music from the show, so people made their own! Some bought individual CD's & ripped them - others downloaded. The point is - either way, they did it because TPTB wouldn't supply the product being demanded - for any price!

Now, the DVD's are set for release - FINALLY! But they've had to replace music because some of the music companies are claiming they've lost so much money FROM NET DOWNLOADING that they have to make it up in the music rights for older TV shows to DVD sets - the most current new market! Problem is - this leaves a market for pirating open because people still want the eps w/original music (the music was a HUGE part of this show!). Also, now those companies - and the performers they represent - get NOTHING! We're talking about passing up an opportunity to get additional revenue for an already FINISHED product that they're crying about loosing millions on due to downloading! So they pass up getting something extra and opt for nothing??? For an already produced and in the can product??? This is good business for making up revenue for what's supposedly lost to downloaders??? When did NO MONEY ever make up for a loss better than SOME MONEY??? This does not make sense! (Or maybe we're just not understanding the corporate tax loss credits that would actually SAVE the CEO's big bucks BECAUSE of the losses! ) Millions are waiting for these DVD's - millions will be sold world wide. And now some lesser known bands are just tickled pink that their song has been chosen as a replacement in these sets! THEY got the revenues - THEY are getting the free publicity - THEIR names will be seen listed in all the credits. I could see this if you had to write and produce, etc., new material. But when did passing off possible revenue for an already finished product become a way of reclaiming lost revenue???

Plus, now they've ticked off an additional source of income - the DVD buyers who could've cared less about illegally downloading music, now has their OWN unique gripes with the music industry!! CD's - keep em, but now they're intruding on our TV/VHS/DVD watching, too! They're out to alienate EVERYBODY!!!

And someone else posted that future digital programing will be encoded to produce poor analog recording. Do they ever consider that some people watch their show - and see those commercials (anybody ever really buy anything major because you saw it in the middle of Friends???) only BECAUSE they can record it! Work schedules, school schedules, and - oh yeah - REAL LIFE, often make it impossible to watch something your interested in when it's aired. Take away the ability or motivation to record, cut your audience - and ad watchers - in half! Or even more - I'll just watch my old stuff - or READ A BOOK!

They used to be top dog in technology issues. They grew old and comfortable and, while patting each other on the back, the technology of the common man surpassed them! And the demands being made by the common man aren't what they're used to! They're used to tossing it to us and telling us "This is good. Be grateful to us for it! Shower us with money for the great things we do!" Now, the common man is beginning to throw it back at them, telling them "Keep it! It's not what we wanted! We can do it better ourselves - and keep our money!" And, instead of getting out there and developing creative new ideas for marketing and sales (like actually finding out what the people really DO want??? Like possibly USING the net for distribution and cutting out the costs of many middlemen??? Duh!) - they panic and try to maintain their PERCEIVED outdated control through fear and strong arm tactics!

I don't support copyright theft. I buy commercial DVD's & CD's of favorite artists - a lot of "Best Of....." CD's. I rent a lot of DVD's that I'm certainly GLAD I did NOT buy!!!! I have allowed friends to watch tapes of shows I've taped - If they came to my house to watch with me, what would be the difference??? The fact that I bought the right to listen to the music on a CD in my home or car, but my friend didn't - does that mean I can't play my tapes or CD's if we're in the car together going somewhere??? How can they control this animal??? Big Brother??

Technology will only continue to grow - it won't go away. They're going to have to change their way of doing business or go down in flames to independent music lables and artists, and small film makers who perform for the love of the art and just want to make a living doing what they love. People who are pleased to get a reasonable price from someone who wants to download their music or movies.

Which brings up a question - On the pay per download sites, .99 to $1 per song seems to be a pretty average charge. For a 20 song album, that's still $20.00! About what a 12 - 15 song album would be in the stores. So, if they don't have to pay for promotion, pay for cover artwork, pay for the disc it's recorded on or the case it gets stored in, pay for shipping the product........why is the price STILL so close to what you'd have to pay for an album in the store???? I bought Dido's latest for $13.00 - 11 or 12 songs I think. That's only a little more than $1.00 per song! Why are they still charging so much to download when all they're paying is a web master and bandwidth??? And possibly use their own servers????

They can cry all they want. But as long as they keep practicing business in the above listed ways, they'll get no sympathy from me! And very little of my money!

[Styro]

My biggest gripe with the whole downloading & copying problem is, like many have already said, they won't give you what you ask for and then gripe when you go after it!

For example - I belong to a fan base for a show that got cancelled due to supposed low ratings. However, there are MILLIONS of people around the world trying to find copies of this show to download!

A show can be cancelled for low ratings even if the fan base is still perceived to be large. The stations/networks that air the show only look at a small sample of the population for ratings purposes. They then break apart the ratings by age/sex/etc and disregard everything outside of the age range 18-35. If there aren't enough people with the ratings equipment within the station/network viewing area and within the age range noted that are watching the show then the ratings will be low.

Advertisers won't sponser a show if the ratings are low, the station/network won't produce the show if the advertisers won't pay. There may be millions of people in the fan base, but the advertisers don't care about them. Maybe these fans are outside the age range, maybe they are outside the area (if the advertisers product isn't sold in a wide area it doesn't help to advertise; just try airing an ad for 'Jack In The Box' in Florida or 'Publix' in Oregon). There are many reasons why the advertisers won't sponser a show, but if they don't pay the show can't live.

And someone else posted that future digital programing will be encoded to produce poor analog recording.

The digital tuners having analog ports that are lower quality has been a rumor spread around a long time. The theory is that Congress wouldn't allow all the analog tech to just suddenly go obsolete. You can't just junk millions of VCRs and few houndred thousand P/DVRs (Tivos, etc). Hang an analog port off the digital tuners and allow the old tech to be used until new tech to brought out. Just lower the quality to such that people won't be inclined to archive the analog recording or convert it back to digital for archive and/or internet distribution.

Do they ever consider that some people watch their show - and see those commercials (anybody ever really buy anything major because you saw it in the middle of Friends???) only BECAUSE they can record it! Work schedules, school schedules, and - oh yeah - REAL LIFE, often make it impossible to watch something your interested in when it's aired.

The advertisers, and likely the network, are uninterested in a few million people that work odd shifts and/or have an actual life that doesn't rotate around their media. They will toss you an analog port to record shows at a lower quality, but don't mistaken that gesture as concern.

Take away the ability or motivation to record, cut your audience - and ad watchers - in half! Or even more - I'll just watch my old stuff - or READ A BOOK!

Some progressive groups have been advertising a 'turn off TV week' for some years as a protest for various reasons. This has had no effect whatsoever. The amount of people turning off their TV for a week, a month, for years or forever is insignificant compared to the ever growing TV viewing populace.

Which brings up a question - On the pay per download sites, .99 to $1 per song seems to be a pretty average charge. For a 20 song album, that's still $20.00!

You haven't looked into these download sites, have you? Take iTunes, for example. iTunes will sell individual songs for $0.99 and albums are usually in the range of $5.50 to $9.99. I think the average album price is $7.99. I would look it up now to confirm, but iTunes reacts poorly to my beloved AdSubtract software. Getting back to topic, most albums from some online music download sites are almost reasonable.

They can cry all they want. But as long as they keep practicing business in the above listed ways, they'll get no sympathy from me! And very little of my money!

Ideally, the advertisers want you to buy products being advertised. If you want any type of impact get millions of people to write to the advertisers clients and the advertisers threatening not to buy the product advertised until whatever-your-group-wants-to-happen happens. You might stand a snowballs chance in h*ll of having an effect.

The advertisers, network and hollywood have control over our politicians at this time. The politicians are writing laws to favor these corporate entities and there is damn little we the citizens can do about it. Best we can hope for is to change the political base and hope the new group isn't as easily bribed/lobbied.

-- Styro

[Shilohaura]

My show's fan base is VERY aware of the politics involved in TV ratings! We're very well known in TV media-dom! TV guide once said - IN PRINT - that they wouldn't say anything bad about our show because the fans scared them!! We're very proud of that image and consider it a slogan! We are also known as the only fan base that actually got our show brought back for a full season on another network after it had been cancelled! The advertisers even JOINED our fight! We always gave them direct feedback. Many were already contracted to support the 4th season when there was a nasty takeover at the network and the new parent company - one of the big major 3 - dropped it like a hot potato in favor of programing THEY thought would do much better in that time slot. Unfortunately (for THEM), it's a tough time slot on that network and everything they've replaced the show with so far has gotten worse ratings and many didn't last past the first 2 or 3 eps!

We're a hands-on fan base and are still in contact with the cast, crew, writers, directors, and - now - the actual company releasing the DVD. One of the major "committee members" is scheduled to meet today with the person responsible for putting the DVD & special features together. We're hoping for an outstanding set!

And we are known for massive charity work for children around the world. The actors, crew, production company - and even some of the major advertisers - continue to support and attend fan charity event gatherings and fundraising efforts!

So, we're aware of the power & pull big corp politics and the so called Nielson Ratings has over controlling what we supposedly find entertaining and what we don't. In the scifi arena, however, there is a huge rebellion going on against that and people are becoming more hands on and involved. You're right. Tradition dictates that they seek the 18-35 audience, but they underestimate the power of the "older audience" when they latch onto a show! Especially in the scifi area where fans become almost cult-like! One scifi show recently cancelled just got their funding for a major feature movie to continue their story! Many of the older fans, experienced in financial planning & brokering, advertising, PR, etc. (these people have had full successful careers in many areas!), bought stock in one of the major financial companies being solicited! Plus, some of the show's TV advertisers put money in the financing pot, too. These fans have life experience & money they're willing to put behind their desires and wishes - something many 18 to 35 year olds don't have. And advertisers and financers know the buying power we have because we maintain direct contact with them and let them know we WATCHED their ad, appreciate their support, and actually BOUGHT their product over another because of their support! Advertisers of my show got literally millions of emails, letters and purchase receipts from us! Feedback they can't get from the Nielsons! That's why they campaigned with us and continue to support our efforts. Average TV may not be effected by fans likes or dislikes, but in the scifi world, we are being noticed and making a difference!

The music companies that refused offers to put their music on the DVD's will hear and feel the rath. These people call directly to the offices - they have sat in the waiting rooms of the CEO's and told others in the offices what they're doing there. They contact media sources and have gotten into many magazines and net news media. They're loud, vocal and "not going to take it anymore".

This is where they really could be USING the net - cost effective distribution of products people want that they're not willing to risk massive production & distribution & promotional monies on. You like the music from a specific show/ep/movie? Not enough percieved interest to warrant a huge investment? Make them available for download at a reasonable cost and let you mix your own soundtrack! They could even include free CD cover graphics to be downloaded! Same for eps of shows that might not be highly profitable to reair often or distribute in stores. It's just lying in the film vault for God's sake! Make some money off it in a cost effective way! And if they start using bukoos bandwith because they're so popular as downloads - maybe it would give some direct feedback that the Nielsons info may not have been so accurate! (2 other companies - Tivo being one - offered technology that would provide a more accurate ratings system last year. Nielson promply announced their ratings were totally accurate, they'd have to be involved in any changes, and they didn't need any help, thank you very much! When did God die and leave them in charge, anyway??) There are MANY ways they could start USING the web and it's downloading capabilities rather than fighting it and alienating the public by suing 12 year olds who just have to have those songs or missed an ep of their favorite show!

Thanks for the info on the "pay to download" sites. I'll check some of them out. I more than likely fall into the .99 single song downloader, unfortunately, because I rarely want a complete album of anyone! Like many others, I'm tired of purchasing an entire disc of crappy music for that one great song! I like compilations. But I'll check into what they offer. Most of my current compilations are ripped from those "single song" CD's I bought - which are now gathering dust in the rack, so I feel that I did pay to listen to that music - whether on the disc I bought or the one I burned! I'm not a big downloader - my hubby writes music, so I understand the issues! I just don't feel it would be that big of a problem if they offered what people want - WHATEVER that is - for a more reasonable price, and started using the net rather than fighting it. Plus, rather than ticking people off and leaving a bad taste in their mouths, they'd be more likely to garner sympathy and support for their cause! Pour out the honey - the flies will come!

[Styro]

I just don't feel it would be that big of a problem if they offered what people want - WHATEVER that is - for a more reasonable price, and started using the net rather than fighting it. Plus, rather than ticking people off and leaving a bad taste in their mouths, they'd be more likely to garner sympathy and support for their cause! Pour out the honey - the flies will come!

I think a great many people feel the way that you and the people of your activist group feel. I wish you and your group lots of luck trying to get the advertisers and networks to produce the show(s) that people want to see. It will be an entirely uphill battle, but from what you have written your group appears to be doing everything possible to convince those in charge of making the requested changes.

It is truely a poorly thought-out system when people have to go to great lengths to protest for change in order to be entertained. The system is made to look even worse when the corporations and associations involved want to squeeze every possible penny out from consumers and still cry about supposed profit loss by piracy.

The industry must change their business processes, and the government must either make them and/or must follow through with changes to laws.

-- Styro

[cplevel42]

The topic is drifting, but I'm curious; what show are we talking about here???

[gmatov]

I'd sure like to know that, too.

With that much activism aroused, I am probably going to like it.

[UKIAMDAUKUK]

IM NOT AMERICAN