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  1. Here's an interesting article that AGAIN seems to point that DVD plus has won or winning the format war. Like I've always said, us enthusiasts here no matter how strongly we feel about it will not decicde the format but it will ultimately be the average Joe that will decide it for us.

    I must emphasize I have a dual format burner like most of us do. I know some of you will say it don't matter who wins or who gives a #$*#. But hey fact is still fact.

    All recent developments and numbers point to DVD+R fast becoming the dominant standard if not already. I am just reporting what I believe is the inevitable.

    Don't get me wrong this does not mean its the end of dash format. Its just means + will become(is) the standard/dominant format. Look at it this way, we still have cassette players and tapes.

    Here's the article:


    DENVER--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Oct. 27, 2003--About two dozen manufacturers have announced plans to introduce new DVD recorders using the DVD+R/+RW recording format, the DVD+RW Alliance announced today.
    According to the manufacturers' announcements many of the new recorders will be available in time for this year's Christmas holiday season.

    "The Plus format already is becoming the de facto standard for DVD recording in personal computers," said Maureen Weber, general manager of Optical Storage Solutions unit at HP and chief spokesperson for the DVD+RW Alliance. "These new Plus-format recorders will further solidify DVD+RW's presence in the consumer electronics space at a time when DVD recording is moving into the mainstream."

    According to Santa Clara Consulting, five out of every six DVD recording devices sold have been for use in personal computers. Because of this, many industry analysts suggest that the PC market will dictate which format will become the industry standard for both DVD drives in computers and DVD recorders that attach to TVs.

    A major reason for Plus's strength in the PC market is that Dell and HP, the world's two largest PC manufacturers, both use the DVD+R/+RW format exclusively in their products. According to data from Santa Clara Consulting, two thirds of the computers shipped with DVD drives installed are using DVD+R/+RW only.

    In media sales, NPD Group data shows that Plus format media has gone from two percent of the market in July 2001 to 41 percent in July 2002 to 55 percent in July 2003. Meanwhile Dash media has gone from 71 percent of the market in July 2001 to 53 percent in July 2002 and 44 percent in July 2003. RAM has gone from 27 percent in July 2001 to about one percent.

    "Over the past two years, the Plus format has steadily established its place as the format of choice in the PC space," said Gerry Smith, vice president of Peripherals for Dell. "Now that consumer electronics companies are embracing DVD+RW technology, more customers will see the inherent benefit that Plus can provide. Because of the benefits to end users, we are doing our part to help DVD+RW become the industry standard."

    DVD+R/+RW's leadership in personal computers is expected to continue as DVD recordable drives become more common in new computers. The percentage of new computers that come equipped with DVD-recordable drives has increased steadily in the past year and both HP and Dell expect well over half of the new computers they sell next year to be equipped with DVD-recordable drives.

    "With recordable DVD drives becoming more commonplace in PCs, the addition of new Plus-format DVD recorders will provide even more flexibility for consumers interested in maximizing the convergence between DVD recording and editing on their computers and DVD recorders attached to their home entertainment centers," said Mark Poldervaart, managing director of AV Systems for Philips Consumer Electronics North America.

    Other recent developments involving DVD+R/+RW include:

    -- The announcement of dual layer DVD+R discs compatible with the dual-layer DVD-ROM standard (DVD9). The discs were demonstrated at CEATEC, a major Japanese-based trade show, earlier this month. Final specifications and the format book are expected to be available within this year and recordable media and recorder products that will use this new dual layer technology are expected in the course of 2004.

    -- 8X recording speeds for DVD+R were achieved in the latter part of the summer and products using this technology are increasingly available to consumers.
    http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=2...81&newsLang=en
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  2. When you buy a duel layer burn both format's win. At compusa DVD-R is doing best I would say a ten pack of DVD-R for $7.99. You can not beat the price. I will buy a DVD recorder and I might buy a DVD+R but will only burn DVD+RW then edit on the PC later. keep in mind with duel burner's in the market some store's are selling alot of DVD-R. And even id DVD+R has a higher percentage of the market. DVD0-R is not going any place. It's very nice to have two format's. Both have there up's and down's.
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  3. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Blah blah blah.
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  4. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sidewinder33625
    Here's the article:


    DENVER--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Oct. 27, 2003--About two dozen manufacturers have announced plans to introduce new DVD recorders using the DVD+R/+RW recording format, the DVD+RW Alliance announced today.
    According to the manufacturers' announcements many of the new recorders will be available in time for this year's Christmas holiday season.

    "The Plus format already is becoming the de facto standard for DVD recording in personal computers," said Maureen Weber, general manager of Optical Storage Solutions unit at HP and chief spokesperson for the DVD+RW Alliance. "These new Plus-format recorders will further solidify DVD+RW's presence in the consumer electronics space at a time when DVD recording is moving into the mainstream."

    According to Santa Clara Consulting, five out of every six DVD recording devices sold have been for use in personal computers. Because of this, many industry analysts suggest that the PC market will dictate which format will become the industry standard for both DVD drives in computers and DVD recorders that attach to TVs.

    A major reason for Plus's strength in the PC market is that Dell and HP, the world's two largest PC manufacturers, both use the DVD+R/+RW format exclusively in their products. According to data from Santa Clara Consulting, two thirds of the computers shipped with DVD drives installed are using DVD+R/+RW only.

    In media sales, NPD Group data shows that Plus format media has gone from two percent of the market in July 2001 to 41 percent in July 2002 to 55 percent in July 2003. Meanwhile Dash media has gone from 71 percent of the market in July 2001 to 53 percent in July 2002 and 44 percent in July 2003. RAM has gone from 27 percent in July 2001 to about one percent.

    "Over the past two years, the Plus format has steadily established its place as the format of choice in the PC space," said Gerry Smith, vice president of Peripherals for Dell. "Now that consumer electronics companies are embracing DVD+RW technology, more customers will see the inherent benefit that Plus can provide. Because of the benefits to end users, we are doing our part to help DVD+RW become the industry standard."

    DVD+R/+RW's leadership in personal computers is expected to continue as DVD recordable drives become more common in new computers. The percentage of new computers that come equipped with DVD-recordable drives has increased steadily in the past year and both HP and Dell expect well over half of the new computers they sell next year to be equipped with DVD-recordable drives.

    "With recordable DVD drives becoming more commonplace in PCs, the addition of new Plus-format DVD recorders will provide even more flexibility for consumers interested in maximizing the convergence between DVD recording and editing on their computers and DVD recorders attached to their home entertainment centers," said Mark Poldervaart, managing director of AV Systems for Philips Consumer Electronics North America.

    Other recent developments involving DVD+R/+RW include:

    -- The announcement of dual layer DVD+R discs compatible with the dual-layer DVD-ROM standard (DVD9). The discs were demonstrated at CEATEC, a major Japanese-based trade show, earlier this month. Final specifications and the format book are expected to be available within this year and recordable media and recorder products that will use this new dual layer technology are expected in the course of 2004.

    -- 8X recording speeds for DVD+R were achieved in the latter part of the summer and products using this technology are increasingly available to consumers.
    http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=2...81&newsLang=en
    Ok, just to debunk a few exaggerations, let's start by thinking of the old "Truman vs. Dewey" debacle, or the phrase "rumours of my demise have been greatly exaggerated".

    I took the liberty of applying BOLD to areas you may want to scrutinize.

    #1 & #2: this is a press release from the DVD+ Alliance. What would you expect?

    #3: Santa Clara did a similar "study" late last year that was also riddled with holes. I'm not impressed by their research methods.

    #4: Dell and HP/Compaq have been mentioned as being the largest, but they don't quote any percentage. It could be 90% of the whole market, or it could be the "largest" share at 10-15%. Notice also that this weight is still only for PC drives, not for settops.

    #5: Interesting that they chose July 2001, since +R didn't even get introduced in America until Spring of 2001. OF COURSE it's gonna start with a low share then!

    #6: Terminology switches from DVD+ to DVD-Recordable so they can inflate their image. Where are the raw numbers that people can look at and judge for themselves?

    #6: Drives have now become available, but I don't see any 8x media yet... Sounds like vaporware to me. If I was gonna be completely taken in by PR, I'd have to say that the + camp isn't that far ahead with either 8x or Dual layer.

    You notice I didn't say anything that actually said it's all false and that -R is the only way to go, but I'm taking all this in with a cynical eye.

    I'm still keeping an open mind. I'll be getting an A06 (or A07 if it comes out as planned) in the next 2 months, which will allow me to burn +R/W if I so desired. But after over 350 discs burned, it's still all -R. Not a single "request" for +, even though I would acquiesce if asked. And of that figure, only 2 have had issues. Not too bad!
    I have gotten, strangely, requests to take a DVD+R master and make both multiple -R copies and VHS copies. No problem there.

    Scott
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    #5: Interesting that they chose July 2001, since +R didn't even get introduced in America until Spring of 2001. OF COURSE it's gonna start with a low share then!
    You mean spring 2002 was the release of DVD+R, fall 2001 for DVD+RW.
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  6. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    oops, thanks for correcting me.
    however, i think my point still stands.
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  7. Originally Posted by sidewinder33625


    #4: Dell and HP/Compaq have been mentioned as being the largest, but they don't quote any percentage. It could be 90% of the whole market, or it could be the "largest" share at 10-15%. Notice also that this weight is still only for PC drives, not for settops.



    Scott

    HP/Compaq and Dell combined have 31% of world market and 53% of US market

    (Fujitsu/Siemens also have 4% of the world market and fit +RW only drives in their desktops too)

    See
    http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jhtml;jsessionid=0E0BUBVY3ZW52CTFA4FCFGAKMUDYWIWD?containerI...3_10_14_151735

    KDH
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  8. Originally Posted by Cornucopia
    Ok, just to debunk a few exaggerations, let's start by thinking of the old "Truman vs. Dewey" debacle, or the phrase "rumours of my demise have been greatly exaggerated".

    I took the liberty of applying BOLD to areas you may want to scrutinize.

    #1 & #2: this is a press release from the DVD+ Alliance. What would you expect?

    #3: Santa Clara did a similar "study" late last year that was also riddled with holes. I'm not impressed by their research methods.

    #4: Dell and HP/Compaq have been mentioned as being the largest, but they don't quote any percentage. It could be 90% of the whole market, or it could be the "largest" share at 10-15%. Notice also that this weight is still only for PC drives, not for settops.

    #5: Interesting that they chose July 2001, since +R didn't even get introduced in America until Spring of 2001. OF COURSE it's gonna start with a low share then!

    #6: Terminology switches from DVD+ to DVD-Recordable so they can inflate their image. Where are the raw numbers that people can look at and judge for themselves?

    #6: Drives have now become available, but I don't see any 8x media yet... Sounds like vaporware to me. If I was gonna be completely taken in by PR, I'd have to say that the + camp isn't that far ahead with either 8x or Dual layer.

    You notice I didn't say anything that actually said it's all false and that -R is the only way to go, but I'm taking all this in with a cynical eye.

    I'm still keeping an open mind. I'll be getting an A06 (or A07 if it comes out as planned) in the next 2 months, which will allow me to burn +R/W if I so desired. But after over 350 discs burned, it's still all -R. Not a single "request" for +, even though I would acquiesce if asked. And of that figure, only 2 have had issues. Not too bad!
    I have gotten, strangely, requests to take a DVD+R master and make both multiple -R copies and VHS copies. No problem there.

    Scott

    You can slice it any way you want but you gotta give credit to +R. It came late in the game and look at how far it has come. Anyone with an inkling of business sense will be able to tell you where its going. I fail to see any argument here. Hence no response from the dash fanatics.

    As far as 8x media is concerened, you can burn at 8x to certified 4x media right now. I'm talking full DVD in 7minutes folks. Try doing that with -R.
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  9. My own personal experience is that DVD+R's compatibility is bad, not only with set-top DVD players but even with DVD-ROM drives; and DVD+RW is laughably incompatible with anything. I will continue to use DVD-R almost exclusively unless and until I find another media at least as compatible. Your mileage may vary.
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  10. I use -R media exclusively, for exactly the reason lgmayka pointed out.

    So while you're out scouring the internet, looking for any shred of info that might make you feel better about your +R choice.. I'll be burning to my hearts content, and not worrying about compatibility, b/c I've never had an issue.

    You can give me all the links and facts in the world, but my personal experience wins out everytime... and my experience is that +R gave me problems, -R doesn't.

    my 2 cents fwiw
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  11. I would refer you to the website that shows exactly what the postion is
    www.sitethatagreeswithme.org/specious/pr-puff
    And this site that proves you utterly wrong
    www.ohgodhowstupid.ur/conspiracytheory/blather
    Corned beef is now made to a higher standard than at any time in history.
    The electronic components of the power part adopted a lot of Rubycons.
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    This article does not reflect in any way the world market, only the U.S.. So how can it be any indication of who's "winning" the format war?
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  13. can we have a mod lock this topic. I am not coming down on the original poster, but each week there is a new post about one format winning the "war". All it does is fuel the fire of both sides. It is pointless AND ridiculous to continue having these posts.

    Could there be a special area called "DVD+R is better than DVD-R" and "DVD-R is better than DVD+R" and then posts that proclaim one is better than the other can be dumped into whichever one?

    Actually, can we have a spot that dumps the "help me" posts..... OK going to far with that one.

    Personally, I agree with lordsmurf, BLAH dee flippin DAH.
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    To me, the "DVD-R vs DVD+R" and "CCE vs TMPGENC" conversations are about as interesting as listening to your parents talk about their sexual experiences. Or your woman describing PMS.

    I'll gladly put my fingers in my ears and yell "BLAH BLAH BLAH" as loud as possible.

    While you argue, I have DVDs to watch.
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  15. "yadda blah yadda blah", isn't that the whole point of this forum. What maybe of no intrest to you may be of interst to someone else. Wasn't too far back the "Format War" thread had over 100 posts and views in the thousands. Lock the thread? Pulleaze...why not just close this site Don't you realize the foolishness if a company were to come out with a brand spanking new dash only burner. Yet there are plenty of companies that make + only burners. Doesn't that tell you something? Like the old saying goes...you can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink.
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  16. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sidewinder33625
    You can slice it any way you want but you gotta give credit to +R. It came late in the game and look at how far it has come. Anyone with an inkling of business sense will be able to tell you where its going. I fail to see any argument here. Hence no response from the dash fanatics.

    As far as 8x media is concerened, you can burn at 8x to certified 4x media right now. I'm talking full DVD in 7minutes folks. Try doing that with -R.
    Your right, I do give credit to their marketing/engineering machine for revamping an incompatible format (the old +RW @ 3GB) and wowing the world with compatibility, or at least promises of compatibility. They haven't completely come through with all of their promises, but yes they have sold alot in a short while!
    I do just barely have an inkling of business sense, but beyond the common sense notion that all variants will be around for a while to come, I couldn't tell you where it's going.

    These forums have shown alot of examples of people getting burned using cheap media or using media not rated for as high a burn speed. Most of the threads have centered around -R (probably because that's where you can get lots of the cheapest discs), but I have a feeling that we'll be seeing more gripes from the + camp now that there are more cheap +R disc manufacturers and there are more speed options to choose from. When I burn at 8x (which I'll do at some point in the near future on either + or -), I intend to burn with media that is qualified for 8x. A little more expensive, but good, reliable quality as well as speed. That's where my priorities are, as can be seen from all my other posts on the subject.

    Scott
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  18. Who cares!! Talk about sales on blank discs, about when both camps are releasing the dual layer discs, sales on dual format players, and STOP THE "MY FORMAT IS BETTER THEN YOURS CRAP"
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    I have a multiformat drive. I use +R exclusively for my data backup and -R for all my video concerns. I just find -R to be more compatible with older players.
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  20. What are you talking about? I'm not sayin 'my' format is better than anything. As I have said in my original post I have a dual format burner so both are actually my format. My point is that +R is gaining market share and -R is losing and eventually(sooner than later) -R will go the way of the cassette tapes.
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    -R will go the way of the cassette tapes.
    You are delusional if you think that's true. You must take every press release as gospel.
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  22. Originally Posted by ginge
    -R will go the way of the cassette tapes.
    You are delusional if you think that's true. You must take every press release as gospel.
    Hehe forgot to add a smiley at the end. Maybe I exaggerated a bit. BUT, the writing is on the wall. If its not clear right now it will be clear sooner than later. Let me just summarize the known facts:

    1. No -R single format burners currently being manufactured.
    2. Only available single format burners are +R.
    3. Large number of those single format burners are sold as OEMs to be used in PCs(i.e. HP, Dell...etc)
    4. Above is where the big market is.
    5. +R will write at 8x to certified 4x media.
    6. There are no 8x -R.
    7. Even when above is finally released no one knows if it will be able to write 8x to 4x media or if it will require certified 8x media.
    8. Above is due to inherent limitation of how -R is written which could limit -R to 8x.
    9. +R should have no problem going up to 16x
    10. 16x is the absolute limit on DVDR media.
    11. -RW writes at 2x
    12. +RW writes at 4x

    The current trend with +R is clear. We've seen the +R start at nothing and come this far. Forget about year ago when DVD burning was still young and the only choice was -R. Next year or so will be a very critical period for these two formats given the current DVD burner explosion. Whoever comes out ahead within the year will verly likely be the winner. As I said, look at the facts above and tell me which format has the advantage.

    Oh and BTW, this talk of compatibility or lack therof is a non-issue. Both formats are as compatible. Media itself is more of a variable than anything else.
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    That's retarded. I can pick up a -R only drive anywhere I want. But why would you?

    The only reason to make +R only is because dual burners are unable to bitset.
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  24. You stop me again whilst I'm walking and I'll cut your fv<king Jacob's off.
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  25. Who cares which format wins, - and + are both readable on dvd-burners and most dvd-players. So there is no reason why you should choose a
    specific type of burner atm. It this moment I'm replacing my (re)-writer
    about every 2 years, my list:

    Mitsumi 2-speed cd-writer (about 350 $) (1997)
    Philips 4-speed cd re-writer (about 300 $) (1999)
    Plextor 24-speed cd rewriter (about 220$) (2001)
    Lite On DVD burner 4x dvd+r/4x dvd+rw/12x dvd-read/40x cd-r/24x cd-rw (130$). (2003)

    As you can see, each new purchase is cheaper then the one before!
    So by the time we reach 2005, I'll just buy the system that is popular
    at that moment. Problably a dual layer dvd-burner
    By that time blue-ray might be in the shops, but too expensive ofcourse
    as all new technology is when it is released
    So blue-ray will problably be the follow-up of whatever I buy in 2005,
    in 2007 those burners will have an acceptable price I guess
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    I have a multiformat writer. I choose to burn movies to DVD+R because they work in my XBOX and I can buy the discs cheap at Costco. As far as my equpitment is concerned, for me DVD+R has 100% compatability. So at my house, DVD+R has won. Why can't people just be happy with whatever works for them? Isn't this arguement about trying to get everyone to have the same format? Who cares, as long as it works? Any DVD player manufacturer should take a look at this thread and relase a player that will play BOTH! Oh my gosh, what a concept! How come it took so long for someone to think of this?
    dj matty b
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    Seriously folks, people who reply to these threads who apparently have no interest in such topics really shouldnt be posting in them at all. NOT posting in these kind of threads is a better way of showing you have no interest in this stuff whatsoever, and some people like this kind of debate about +/-.

    I have a dual writer btw and primarily use +, i do use - too but i have no compatibility issues with either, i just happen to like + because it writes the lead in/out faster and never having had an issue with it why change.

    And there is no winner here, no format is going anywhere soon
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  28. Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    That's retarded. I can pick up a -R only drive anywhere I want. But why would you?

    The only reason to make +R only is because dual burners are unable to bitset.
    I did not say it was not available to buy but no longer being manufactured. You are purchasing whatever is left of the remaining stock. Look at Pioneer, the so called bastion of the -R format. They certainly bought into the "if you can't beat'em join'em" concept by introducing none other than the + format. Their excuse of "oh we thought it was in the best interest of our customers" is at best a lame excuse to save face in defeat. By paying royalties to the other side, the staunchiest supporter of the dash format is now also paying to suppot the other format.

    The only reason why they make + drives are because of what? I don't know what that is nor do I care to. This I'm sure applies to the MAJORITY of people. Please come out of the cave and look around. You will see a world of difference.

    EDIT: after a bit of search on this bitsit on this forum it sounds as its a way of getting better compatibility with RW format. This sounds like a bandage to try to get legacy DVD players recognize the format. Again non-issue as virtually all modern DVD players (including sub $50 players) have no problem playing any format whatsoever.
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  29. Originally Posted by Northstar
    some people like this kind of debate about +/-.
    I think many readers feel the way I do: I do not like this kind of debate, because it so quickly degenerates into obvious flame bait, such as the comment that "Compatibility is a non-issue." As any consumer publication makes clear, compatibility is the most important issue for movie-making consumers and professionals alike. A DVD movie that will not play on someone's DVD player is simply a piece of garbage as far as that person is concerned.

    Unfortunately, people like me feel we cannot simply ignore flame bait like this, because innocent readers might actually swallow it.
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    Originally Posted by lgmayka
    Originally Posted by Northstar
    some people like this kind of debate about +/-.
    I think many readers feel the way I do: I do not like this kind of debate, because it so quickly degenerates into obvious flame bait, such as the comment that "Compatibility is a non-issue." As any consumer publication makes clear, compatibility is the most important issue for movie-making consumers and professionals alike. A DVD movie that will not play on someone's DVD player is simply a piece of garbage as far as that person is concerned.

    Unfortunately, people like me feel we cannot simply ignore flame bait like this, because innocent readers might actually swallow it.
    Its just the people that come in moaning about these threads that bug me, the ones that shout "LOCK THIS THREAD" or "blah" and so on, its like they have a few minutes on their hands and through boredom come in saying such things, when clearly if they have no interest in such things why bother commenting at all, its only going to antagonize other posters in the thread who may have a genuine interest in this stuff.

    I mostly find it amusing, i dont go off half **** at something i may not like.

    These format wars are i suppose important to some people, its not life or death, there has always been wars over something computer related or anything else (Amiga/Atari), there always will be these wars, thats how guys are, too much testosterone i imagine

    As for the 'compatabilty issue' to some it would be an issue, they buy a burner, they want to back up their films, guess what it dosent work. I imagine (never having the problem myself) that would be annoying, but i have one answer to that, the silly sods should have bought a dual burner (they are cheap enough now)... end of issue :P (only to find it still dosent work, because its HOW they burn it )
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