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  1. Originally Posted by lgmayka
    Originally Posted by Northstar
    some people like this kind of debate about +/-.
    I think many readers feel the way I do: I do not like this kind of debate, because it so quickly degenerates into obvious flame bait, such as the comment that "Compatibility is a non-issue." As any consumer publication makes clear, compatibility is the most important issue for movie-making consumers and professionals alike. A DVD movie that will not play on someone's DVD player is simply a piece of garbage as far as that person is concerned.

    Unfortunately, people like me feel we cannot simply ignore flame bait like this, because innocent readers might actually swallow it.
    Dont twist words here. What I meant by compatibility being a 'non-issue' is that you will always have compatibility issues no matter which format. If you ever had audio CDRs not play in your car player or other players, that was not due to the format per se. But rather it was due to other variables such as the media, burner and the player itself or a combination of these. If there were two competing CD-R and CD+R formats, I'm sure there would have been countless number of people saying their 'experience' is that one format is 'more compatible' than the other. Thank goodness there was only one CDR format.

    Same holds true for DVDR. Most people just try one media and have compatibility problem with it and automatically assume its the format. The same media will probably play fine on another DVD player or it would probably play fine if burned by another burner. See where I'm going with this? The combination of the media, burner and player have far more affect on compatibility than the format, if any, will ever have.

    EDIT: To clarify, notice I used past tense when referring to CDR media. Back then there were different tolerances for media, burner and player. Look at it today and those tolerance gap has been closed to a point where we rarely see any CDR compatibility issues. There will be growing pains with any new media and we are going through it right now with DVDR. Give it some time and compatibility will be a thing of the past. (along with -R) hehe could not resist.
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  2. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lgmayka
    Unfortunately, people like me feel we cannot simply ignore flame bait like this, because innocent readers might actually swallow it.
    Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
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  3. I have recently purchased a DVD writer and before and since have spent quite a lot of time trying to get as much info as possible. I find a topic such as this useful, particlarly so if those wishing to "flame" or those so terribly bored, would refrain from participating.

    I purchased a single format Aopen +R/+RW from Costco in Canada (I am still testing and of course have the option of returning), because it was significantly cheaper than the TDK Indie dual format (over 40% cheaper.) The 4x+R media was the same price as the 2.4x-R media. So I find threads such as this, interesting as I want to determine if I made a decent purchase or if I have another boat anchor to go with my Betamax in the garage.

    andie
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  4. Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Originally Posted by lgmayka
    Unfortunately, people like me feel we cannot simply ignore flame bait like this, because innocent readers might actually swallow it.
    You have anything better to do than riddle this topic with useless comments? Why don't you take your cynicism elsewhere. But then again maybe thats how you got so many posts under your belt.
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  5. You have anything better to do than riddle this topic with useless comments? Why don't you take your cynicism elsewhere.
    That post wasn't useless... this one is!
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  6. This is Ritek's estimate of 2003 sales,

    "Ritek said sales of recordable DVD discs could hit 400 to 500 million units next year, by its more optimistic projections, according to a report in Taiwan industry journal DigiTimes. Ritek chief executive Gordon Yeh said that DVD-R would account for for 160 million units, with DVD+R, DVD+RW, DVD-RW and DVD-RAM formats making up about 40 million discs each."
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  7. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sidewinder33625
    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Originally Posted by lgmayka
    Unfortunately, people like me feel we cannot simply ignore flame bait like this, because innocent readers might actually swallow it.
    You have anything better to do than riddle this topic with useless comments? Why don't you take your cynicism elsewhere. But then again maybe thats how you got so many posts under your belt.
    I have posts because I have useful information. You're giving off a lot of bogus info, and your conclusions are a far cry from the true reasoning behind dual format drives.

    Useless comments? Pot calling kettle black.
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  8. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by trhouse
    This is Ritek's estimate of 2003 sales,

    "Ritek said sales of recordable DVD discs could hit 400 to 500 million units next year, by its more optimistic projections, according to a report in Taiwan industry journal DigiTimes. Ritek chief executive Gordon Yeh said that DVD-R would account for for 160 million units, with DVD+R, DVD+RW, DVD-RW and DVD-RAM formats making up about 40 million discs each."
    Now those are figures that (as long as they're accurate and not inflated/skewed) tell a truer picture of actual USAGE. Interesting. 'Course, they're not the only optical disc manufacturer, but they're surely one of the bigger players these days.

    Scott
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  9. Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Originally Posted by sidewinder33625
    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Originally Posted by lgmayka
    Unfortunately, people like me feel we cannot simply ignore flame bait like this, because innocent readers might actually swallow it.
    You have anything better to do than riddle this topic with useless comments? Why don't you take your cynicism elsewhere. But then again maybe thats how you got so many posts under your belt.
    I have posts because I have useful information. You're giving off a lot of bogus info, and your conclusions are a far cry from the true reasoning behind dual format drives.

    Useless comments? Pot calling kettle black.
    If you have useful information share them. The forum is there to discuss issues, share ideas, to teach and be taught. Not to thread crap with useless comments. I don't see you posting anything constructive so far other than 'just because I said so' comments. Pot what?
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  10. Here's some more info on the advancement of +R. -R will be lucky to have 8X by the time +R DualLayer is released.

    Expect double-layer, almost double-capacity DVD+R drives and media to hit the stores next April, members of the DVD+RW alliance say.

    The technology, co-developed by drive maker Philips, and media specialists Verbatim and Mitsubishi Kagaku, adds a second recording layer to a standard-thickness DVD+R disc, taking the medium's capacity from 4.7GB to 8.5GB.

    That's enough for four hours of DVD-quality material, 16 hours of VHS-quality content or two hours' archive footage. The discs are playback-compatible with existing DVD players and DVD-ROM drives.

    Initial products will offer a write speed of 2.4x.

    DVD+R DL, as the technology is known, was demo'd last month in Japan and shown to the press in London last week. Alliance members said the next step is to publish the format's specifications, a process which should be complete this year.

    Officially, the Alliance says DVD+R DL hardware and media will ship during "the course of 2004", but privately a number of member companies said they are "hoping" for an April 2004 introduction.

    That should provide a further boost for the DVD+R/+RW format, which is increasingly seen as the successor to the older DVD-R/-RW spec., thanks to its full multi-session compatibility with both DVD-ROM and consumer DVD systems. Essentially, DVD+RW discs can be re-edited even when the session has been closed - of 'finalised' - to ensure compatibility with DVD video playback. That said, there have been some claims about the level of DVD+R/+RW compatibility with consumer DVD players; the consensus appears to be that DVD-R/-RW discs, suitably finalised, are more likely to work with any DVD player than is a DVD+R/+RW.

    Fortunately, the question of which format to go for is becoming made less relevant thanks to the growing number of DVD burners that support both media formats. The DVD+RW Alliance claims that next year pure-play DVD+R/+RW drives will outsell DVD-R/-RW units four to one. Also, dual-mode drives will also outsell single-format drives. ®
    http://www.theregister.com/content/54/33733.html
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    Officially, the Alliance says DVD+R DL hardware and media will ship during "the course of 2004", but privately a number of member companies said they are "hoping" for an April 2004 introduction.

    That should provide a further boost for the DVD+R/+RW format, which is increasingly seen as the successor to the older DVD-R/-RW spec., thanks to its full multi-session compatibility with both DVD-ROM and consumer DVD systems. Essentially, DVD+RW discs can be re-edited even when the session has been closed - of 'finalised' - to ensure compatibility with DVD video playback. That said, there have been some claims about the level of DVD+R/+RW compatibility with consumer DVD players; the consensus appears to be that DVD-R/-RW discs, suitably finalised, are more likely to work with any DVD player than is a DVD+R/+RW.

    Fortunately, the question of which format to go for is becoming made less relevant thanks to the growing number of DVD burners that support both media formats.
    1: "Hoping".
    2: Oh and before anyone speaks about Bitsettings...keep in mind thats only Ricoh drives. The casual user won't put the time nor the effort out to change their drives Firmware to Ricoh...but the following statement speaks for itself:

    That said, there have been some claims about the level of DVD+R/+RW compatibility with consumer DVD players; the consensus appears to be that DVD-R/-RW discs, suitably finalised, are more likely to work with any DVD player than is a DVD+R/+RW.

    For every good thing here for +, there is something to go against it. Oh and last I heard...Pioneer was working just as quickly on Dual Layer. Plus might hit it first but it doesn't mean they'll do it right, does it? Apparently people felt DVD-R/RW left enough room for improvement, perhaps +R/RW's Dual Format drive, and 8X drives will do the same. Remember, first does not always equal best. I'll admit I don't mind using +R/RW media. They finalize faster for me on the NEC ND-1300A...but either way there is NO reason whatsoever to hold so much faith in one format. When two companies compete, the consumers win. I think a lot of people who push only one format have had either bad media from the other side, or...simply never burnt them. I like + and - both, and whatever is decent and on sale is what I burn. There's plenty of room on the market for both formats to do well.
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  12. Originally Posted by DeleriumMDK
    2: Oh and before anyone speaks about Bitsettings...keep in mind thats only Ricoh drives. The casual user won't put the time nor the effort out to change their drives Firmware to Ricoh...but the following statement speaks for itself:
    Well its the Ricohs and their clones, Nec1100, Benq(8x), NuTech(8x),
    and now the Nec1300(dual)...
    And the NuTech becomes a dual-bitsettable drive soon...


    I'll admit I don't mind using +R/RW media. They finalize faster for me on the NEC ND-1300A
    Strange, my friend's Nec1300 burns the RitekG04 DVD-R (white top) in 14:30 including the finalization that takes about 20-25 secs. Its pretty fast
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  13. Member SaSi's Avatar
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    I enjoyed the quotation that -R(W) will follow the path of the cassette tapes. I still use them for my car

    However, the debate about burner capabilities is meaningless.

    I spent $430 for a SONY double format burner in January. Since then, I've purchased more than 350 disks at an average price of $3 each and continue to buy more. Therefore I've spent for media 3 times as much as I've spent on the drive.

    Most disks I buy are -R and ALL my RW disks are +RW. -R disks are slightly cheaper these days and I've found that they are more compatible with the drives around me (settop and PC alike). So, who's format is a winner out of my humble pocket?

    The + vs - debate reminds me of the days when Microsoft claimed Windows 3.11 had dominated the market (since every PC manufactured was shipped with it) when users used to re-format the drives with MS-DOS.

    Technically, the +R format appears to have the advantage right now (with 8X). That has nothing to do with market share and domination. The fact that HP and Dell support the +R with their PCs seems to boost the market statistics, however, if I was to buy a PC with burner, I wouldn't buy a single format one (i.e. an HP one).

    I really hope both camps continue to fight THEIR cause and compete. We can only gain out of it.
    The more I learn, the more I come to realize how little it is I know.
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  14. Originally Posted by SaSi
    I really hope both camps continue to fight THEIR cause and compete. We can only gain out of it.
    YES YES YES
    You stop me again whilst I'm walking and I'll cut your fv<king Jacob's off.
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  15. tompika

    did i hear you right...the NEC 1300a is a Ricoh-clone, but more importantly it can bitset with the appropiate utility?!
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  16. No the Nec is not a Ricoh clone.
    I meant the Ricoh clones and the Nec1100 and BenQ and Nu tech and the Nec1300.

    For bitsetting on Nec1300A go to
    http://forum.firmware-flash.com/viewtopic.php?p=80765
    You stop me again whilst I'm walking and I'll cut your fv<king Jacob's off.
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  17. thanks for the link, tompika. will check on herrie's site for 1.08v2.
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  18. Another trend in migration to + format. This time in the home front. Here's the PR. See the highlight at the bottom. With the way PC DVD burners have been dropping in price, give it six months and I would not be surprised if it dropped to around $250 bucks or less.

    http://www.gateway.com/home/ce/dvd.shtml



    Gateway declares VCR obsolete with simple low-cost DVD recorder

    Continuing to build on its leadership in home entertainment, Gateway today announced its first DVD recorder. Priced at just $ 349(1), approximately $ 100 less than competing products, the Gateway(TM) AR-230 DVD Recorder will make VCRs a thing of the past. With this latest addition to its CE product line, Gateway offers consumers a wide selection of home entertainment products just in time for the holidays.

    Bringing DVD recording from the PC to the living room, the Gateway(TM) AR-230 DVD Recorder is one of the easiest and most affordable ways to record, play and store movies and TV programs on DVD. In addition to offering the standalone product, Gateway will also be the first to deliver a complete home theater solution incorporating a DVD recorder with its 1,000-watt KAS-303 home theater system. The DVD recorder category is growing quickly, with sales expected to grow from 1.5 million units this year to nearly 5 million units in 2004.(2)

    The Gateway(TM) AR-230 DVD Recorder was among the products launched today at the Gateway® store in New York City, where chairman and CEO Ted Waitt revealed the company's dramatic retail transformation and unveiled 14 new products for businesses and consumers.

    The new DVD Recorder is the latest innovative product in Gateway's transformation from a PC company into a branded integrator of personalized technology solutions. The company showcases its digital products in its nationwide network of 190 stores. These stores allow consumers to evaluate how the products perform and work together prior to making a purchase. According to the Consumer Electronics Association, 94 percent of consumers purchase CE products at retail(3), giving Gateway a distinct advantage with its multi-channel direct model.

    "We are leveraging our direct model to bring more value to the DVD recorder category and accelerate adoption of this new technology, much like we did with plasma TVs," said Matt Milne, senior vice president and general manager of consumer solutions. "Our DVD Recorder's convenience and ease-of-use will resonate with consumers who want a quick, simple and reliable method of recording and storing digital video."

    AR-230 DVD Recorder Preserves Video for the Long Run

    The AR-230 DVD Recorder replaces the VCR, allowing customers to record TV programs, store movies and playback digital video and other multimedia content. It can record up to six hours of video on a 4.7GB disc. Offering superior quality and longevity over VHS tape, DVD discs maintain recordings up to 100 years versus the three to five years of the average VHS tape. DVD discs also take up significantly less space than bulky VHS cassettes. The Gateway DVD Recorder supports both DVD+RW and DVD+R discs in which Gateway will offer as additional items with the DVD Recorder.

    Using the Gateway AR-230 DVD Recorder, consumers can record favorite TV shows, movies and sports events onto a single DVD with the touch of a button, unlike the multiple steps required to program a VCR. Also, RCA input enables consumers to transfer taped copies of home videos from a VCR onto non-degradable DVD discs.

    The DVD Recorder records using DVD+RW or DVD+R Media and can play a wide array of media such as DVD-ROM, DVD+R/+RW, CD-R/RW and CD-ROM. It's compatible with DVD-Video, DVD+VR, Super VCD, Video CD, Audio CD, MP3 CD and JPEG CD. It also has a full range of inputs and outputs including IEEE 1394 for recording home movies directly from a digital camcorder as well as S-video, component, digital audio and progressive scan.
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  19. Member Sugar's Avatar
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    I guess a more interesting topic would be: When is the customer going to win.

    Both formats have their shortcomings, especially in terms of compatibility. Maybe it is time for some manufacturer to come up with an improved format which would be improve overall compatibility, rather than force us to buy their crapy products. When are we really going to get upgrades other than writing speed?
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  20. Originally Posted by Sugar
    I guess a more interesting topic would be: When is the customer going to win.

    Both formats have their shortcomings, especially in terms of compatibility. Maybe it is time for some manufacturer to come up with an improved format which would be improve overall compatibility, rather than force us to buy their crapy products. When are we really going to get upgrades other than writing speed?
    Like I said in previous posts on this thread, give it some time and compatibility issues will be a thing of the past. Only compatibility issues are now with old pre-DVDR era players. Most new players nowadays have no problems playing any format. Again, compatibility issues is in most cases NOT in the format but the combination of burner, media and player. Read my previous posts more explanation.
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  21. Indolikaa's Thoughts on the Matter...

    I invested heavily in Beta equipment. And I'll put my SL-HF2000 SuperBeta recorder up against your S-VHS deck any day of the week and kick it's ass up one side and down another. It was the loser format, but that had a lot to do with the fact that building a dual-format transport was a physical and legal bitch of a proposition, not to mention some rather 'confusing' marketing decisions by Sony.

    No real relevance to this thread, but I thought I'd start with that thought. :P

    Now, on the issue of DVD format compatibility...

    For those of you who don't know, Indolikaa got into this hobby to archive nearly 2,000 VHS and Beta tapes that were recorded between 1980 and 1988. About half of those tapes are recordings made with video cameras for a family (not mine) with relatives all over the world. These tapes are being requested in just about every format you can imagine.

    I use only Taiyo Yuden DVD-R and Verbatim DataLifePlus DVD+RW for these projects. I have never had any issues with either of these formats or the manufacturers of these discs. Did I choose DVD-R over DVD+R for some perceived superiority? Hell no, I chose DVD-R because at the time I purchased a few hundred of them, that was the only format Taiyo Yuden was manufacturing!

    Outside of these archiving projects, DVD-R, DVD+R and DVD+RW all share a home in my own collection, with no regrets.

    DVD-RW, on the other hand... What a shit format.

    .indolikaa.
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  22. At last -news of the Pioneer A07 today-although 8x DVD-R still to be ratified by the DVDRForum "The release date is subject to change due to the DVD Forum's approval time frame of the standards for 8x write speed DVD-R and 4x write speed DVD-RW"
    see
    http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.asp?RelatedID=4371

    Elsewhere Philips have demonstrated 16x DVD+R -can write a DVD+R in 6 mins-no great gain from 8x drives?!
    see

    http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/8431


    KDH
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  23. Member kabanero's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KDH
    At last -news of the Pioneer A07 today-although 8x DVD-R still to be ratified by the DVDRForum
    see
    http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.asp?RelatedID=4371
    KDH
    KDH,

    But that is PR from CDRInfo.com. Where is press release from Pioneer?????
    And you know that CDRInfo is pro DVD-R web site.

    SO,,,, until I see press release from Pioneer, I will not believe that crap from cdrinfo.com.

    And another thing,

    I never bought Pioneer products and never will.
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  24. By the way, can somebody explain bitsetting to me? And remember, you're dealing with a person whose brain was encoded using a variable IQ scheme, so please do not explain it to me like you would explain it to a 4-year-old, because the 4-year-old obviously has a head start over us older folks!

    .indolikaa.
    Good for ballistic missile warhead trajectory analysis,
    Bad for programming VCR timers.
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  25. Originally Posted by indolikaa
    By the way, can somebody explain bitsetting to me?
    If you do not like www.dvdplusrw.org then go to http://www.netfarer.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8 StudeBarc posted a nice article here
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  26. Member kabanero's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by tompika
    http://www.pioneer-eur.com/eur/company_news_pressrelease.jsp?category=news_121103 _DVRA07
    Good job Tompika.

    Still staying with +R/RW because you cannot beat 4x burning on +RW with future 8x burning on DVD-R, and especially 2x on DVD-RW.
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  27. Thanks, Tompika!
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  28. here we go again... and the dash camp has not even yet demonstrated an 8X drive.(other than make an 'announcement' of an 8X A07 drive that may ship in January)

    Philips first to demonstrate highest possible DVD+R recording speed


    Philips has demonstrated the world's highest ever recording speed of recordable DVD (DVD+R) in an experimental set-up built at Philips Research. The system is able to record 16 times faster ('16x') than the normal playing speed of video DVDs, allowing to burn a DVD+R with video or data up to the maximum capacity in less than 6 minutes. This recording speed is close to the highest possible speed, which means that this represents the ultimate performance of any DVD recording system. The results were presented at the International Symposium on Optical Memory (ISOM, Nara, Japan, 3-7 November) and received the best-poster award there. The Philips technology will form the basis for the 16x DVD+R recording standard to be defined by the DVD+RW Alliance in the course of 2004.
    http://www.research.philips.com/InformationCenter/Global/FNewPressRelease.asp?lArticle...39;,%20550,450
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  29. Member kabanero's Avatar
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    Quote from Doom9 (in bold):

    "The (Pioneer) press release also mentions where the 8x DVD-R specs are... they have still not been released and the press release mentions that the release date of January depends on the DVD forum's final approval of 8x DVD-R and 4x DVD-RW discs)."

    He, he,
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