My chance of getting a programming job?

[gmatov]

I love it!!!!

Entry level people, who will soon earn a degree, telling employers whom they should hire. Of course, it should be the new grad. Hey we are smarter than they are, we just got out of school.

McLeod,

A a Texan,in a "right to work" state, I am amazingly surprised by you. Your Dad taught you good. They will never give you a share in any profits. "Yeah we madde twice as much this year as last year, but we gotta ask for some give backs."

We have some people who think that an Indian, for instance, makes a big buck here.

Jgandara,

Please tell these people how far your 62,000 pay goes. As compared to your possible 30,000r pay would go in India. I would assume you are looking for a raise so that you could afford to live here. I'm sure you have looked at prices here and said why did I ever leave.

Pacman,

You have got to be the most surpising of all. The Unions are the ones ******* up the world? It's not the pricks, like Jack Welch, of GE fame whio said "I wish I could put all my factorie on barges, so I could tow them to the country with the lowest wages".

Ozzies, is that the pipple who say, tugging their forelocks, "Oh no sir,we're willing to work for whatever you say."

And, the best is, all you non-union kids think that they'll pay you the same, or more, if you kill the unions. For Christ's sake, DOCTORS want to unionize to fight the HMOs and earn a doctorly living ( couple hundred grand ), and our federal govv says, no you can't do that.

I don't know, some of you I'd pay, some of you, the law would forbid me from paying what you are worth.

Gotta get some sleep.

Cheers,

George

[pacmania_2001]

I never blamed unions for the shape of the economy, I did say they are a contributing factor to it being this way. Like I said, (and used economic theory to prove the point) through unionisation and things like protection for certain industries you are only creating false economies that will hurt you in the long term even though you think you are benefiting in the short run.

Let me ask you a few questions George. Did you make your own televison sets? What about your house, did you build that yourself? And what about the food you are eating, did you kill it, process it then cook it yourself? No? That is because you specialise in one thing, that you are good at and others in your community specialise in their own thing i.e a butcher, a mechanic and so on.

Now apply that to a national stage. The state of California may be good at producing entertainment and media whilst the state of Texas may be good at producing agriculture. Now apply that to global stage, Australia might be good at producing coal and natural resources whilst say Japan is good at making technology. Why should an Australian producer grow bananna's when some South American country can grow the exact same product at a quarter of the price. Through free trade Australia can buy that bananna back from say Brazil for less then it would have cost them to make it. Australia then may sell it's coal to Britain to itself earn money.

And like I said previously, if you don't agree with what you are getting paid in the role you are in, move. Whether that be to another company or a whole new industry. You aren't forced to accept the wage at that amount and if enough people don't accept then that wage will rise until the employer can find enough employees.

[pacmania_2001]

Entry level people, who will soon earn a degree, telling employers whom they should hire. Of course, it should be the new grad. Hey we are smarter than they are, we just got out of school.

Actually their are benefits to hiring older workers just like their are benefits to hiring graduates.

Older people generally have experience, tacit knowledge, workplace skills, have customer relations and are accustomed to the procedures in the industry.

Graduates on the other hand are generally cheaper, more flexible in terms of hours and where they are prepared to work and don't carry pre-conditioned mindsets from previous jobs.

And like I said above, a smart employer will take into account all these factors and decide which one to hire.

[jgandara]

You don't know how a graduate will work; he has minimum experience with a real life job. You need to know the bussines process and apply all your knowledge to solve problems. It's different than doing a final project for school.

I'm not from India, I'm from Mexico. In all my posts, somewhere I mentioned, that here you spend more money, but you also have more economic resources to buy goods, like a house, a car, big-screen TV's. Here, they are cheaper and you have lower interest rates. From 7% to 25%. In Mexico the minimum interest is 15%, and you don't get as much help from the goverment to buy a house. There are other factors like crime rate, job opportunities that the US has the advantage to other countries. So far I'm staying here for my family, my kinds can get better education here, but to tell you the truth, there in Mexico, a private school is 100% better than more privates schools here, for less than half the price. The drug problem is not a issue there and racism is minimum.

The best university there cost like a public university here.On the other hand, universities have the best reputation in the world.

I'ts amazing how overrated are the prices you have to pa for medical attention, college fees and all kind of services. When you got out from college, you owe more than your parents alone!.

[macleod]

gmatov,

When I read your reply post, I swear that you and my father were cut from the samw weld. He has said the exact same things to me being a Texan now (I'm a transplant from Missouri).

I use to work for GE also and when I read your comment (which I am sure you had to clean up for this board), I about died laughing as my dad gave me the uncensored version of his thoughts when Welch said that. He actually mentioned something about a bullet and what a worthless p.o.s. he is.

Each time I visit, my father gives me a HUGE ration a crap (in a fatherly way of course) over being a right to work scab. Really, what can I say about it. I read some of these posts and about die laughing because it really appears that people believe that an employer is their friend. Everyone is all smiles and we can talk about a persons experience being worth something, blah, blah, blah. If you think for a minute that a company wouldnt throw you out on your ass in a heartbeat and replace you for someone that will work for nothing, I have a bridge to sell you. Your skills and knowledge and connections, etc. DONT MEAN ANYTHING.

I know that we are talking IT here (and anyone that believes skills give you something over the competition and a job is secure apparently hasnt been awake these last few years), but lets looking at the trucking industry. My father has 30 years experience. He ensures that when he gets in a rig that it is safe. If its not, he wont drive it. My dad was FIRED 13 times in one day because he would not drive an unsafe truck. The union backed him up. His employer could give a shit less that the truck had safety violations and that you and your family would be driving right next to him. The employer was just interest in his money. You scabs out there that undercut bids and whatnot and turned the driving industry into a joke, please post and say that you could do the same thing.

OK, I am rambling again... Y'all that think that your employer owes you something, go read the At Will Doctrine. Might be a little surprised as to the things that an employer is allowed to do you (and you allowed them to happen). Another thing, we talk about this crap of supply and demand. While that is true to a certain extent, why do you think certain folks are getting paid X amount and we are not all making pennies? HMMMM!!! I'll tell you, the Unions!!!!!! Them F'in scabs are so afraid that more and more people will want to unionize, they "offer" (which I have to laugh at) hire salaries, benefits.

See, this gets me on something else. Why does your employer "give" you health insurance, holidays off, sick days. Lets look back a few years and see how that happen. Again, if you kids think that its because your employer is being nice, you are morons. They are afraid you'll unionize and force them.

A parting thought on this (just to think about). When your employer hands you your paycheck, what do you say???? I'll bet its "thank you"? Why do you say thank you??? You busted your ass for that money, he/she should be thanking you.

Back to the programmer guy. Learn as much as you can, dont trust anyone as they are all out to screw you over. The only one that will take care of your family is you. (Boy, my dad would be so proud).

[pacmania_2001]

A parting thought on this (just to think about). When your employer hands you your paycheck, what do you say???? I'll bet its "thank you"? Why do you say thank you??? You busted your ass for that money, he/she should be thanking you.

It could be reversed. Take my situation, everytime I leave work my boss thanks me. Why should he? He just gave me money for doing something when he could have one of hundred's of other people willing to take my job do the exact same thing. Shouldn't I be thanking him for choosing me over the rest of the people and by allowing me to support myself.

I recommend you go to your local library and hire out a copy of Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert T Kiyosaki. Have a read of it and see which type of person you fit into, the rich dad or the poor dad. I think after reading that book you might look at things slightly differently.

Anyway, with that, I withdraw from this debate. I could argue all I want however like anything controversial (i.e the gun control debate that was in the Off Topic) their is always going to be two sides which will never agree with one another.

[gmatov]

pacman,

Over here we call a bachelor's degree, what else, a bachelor's degree. The term probably originated here. I think the Brits call it something else and you are a British derived society, so I wonder how it came to be used there.

You haven't always been that fond of the British, either, so maybe you use the term as a" thumb your nose at 'em".

The rich and the corporate owners could not possibly buy all the product produced here, nor imported here, so without a living wage, their factories would have to close or drastically down size.

If the working people can't afford a new washing machine, the washer manufacturers would have to lower production output, raising the per unit cost, so even fewer could afford one. A vicious cycle, as proven by every recession the world has ever had.

As to capitalism not needing government regulation, the dairy industry is capitalism and, back around the turn of the last century, milk producers watered down their milk and added chalk to it to make it look like the real thing. Of course babies were malnourished, but, hey, we doubled our profits.

That, among other absolutely criminal actions, led to the Food and Drug Administration.

The producers of any product cannot be trusted to make a safe product. Ask the parents of, or the thalydimide babies themselves, if the drug industry is trustworthy.

Henry Ford was considered, by his peers, the other automakers, about 1915, to be an absolute prick when he unilaterally raised his workers pay to the unheard of level of 5 bucks a day. They wanted to lynch him. They were going to have to raise their workers pay or the men would leave to join Ford.

Of course, Ford's reasoning was that his workers could now afford to buy a Ford car, and every unit of output raised his overall profit; lower per unit cost, plus an additional sale. And a more loyal workforce. (What a term to use in the world of work. You must be "loyal" to the company, but you can be terminated "at will")

As an aside, no I didn't build my own TV, nor kill the food I ate today, nor sew my own clothes.

However, I did, after paying to have the hole dug, build my own house, from the concrete footer to the shingles on the roof, with the one exception of hiring a plasterer to finish the interior. Some of us are masters of more than one trade.

There are also some things that should not be outsourced. One that I think is still being litigated is the sale of a company that makes rare earth magnets used in US weaponry guidance systems to China.

Should there ever be a shooting war with China, do you think the Chinese gov will allow the new owners of the technology to sell us the material?

And do you think the US could have joined you guys ( British Empire ) in War I and II if the US had said, hey, the Germans, Krupp and others, make the best and most steel in the world. We'll just buy it from them. No sense wasting our financial resources building steel mills here. They make too much smoke and stuff. Better we go into Services.

And as to competition on pricing, it took a law to prevent the manufacturers from enforcing the MSRP practices, whereby merchants were not permitted to sell at a lower price than that set by the maker. The same thing was just quashed in entertainment media where the studios were trying to force WalMart to sell CDs/DVDs at list price.

I think that in the EU, sales and undercutting prices is forbidden, isn't it? I really feel for some of our European members. When they write what a component costs, or media, or even a pint of ale, or rent, electricity, gas, whatever and then hear what a typical wage or salary is, you wonder how the hell they can afford this hobby. What are they sacrificing?

Ah, well (he says, scratching his head),

Cheers,

George

[devinemi83]

Wow, thanks for all the replies! I have decided to try to get in Penn State for a BS in Information Sciences. They have a mix program where is based off of both Computer Science and MIS. They train you to become not just programmers but analysts and designers. They even have a majors pathway for design and analysis! They have an 80% right out of school hire rate with the ave starting sal of 46K. Their program is pretty well designed it seems like and the school itself seems pretty good.


I really want to do design work focusing on databases. I really enjoy working with them so I figure thats where I belong. I will be putting in 4 years and alot of money, I hope it pays off.

[tb33]

I have a AS degree in Computer Programming and Analysis Programming from a local community college and I'm now going for a BS in Information Technology. Don't waste your time and money on the Associates Degree.

The BS may turn out to be "BS" if your looking for a job as a programmer (unless you know someone that can get you hired.) However, having a BS will improve your marketability.

[andkiich]

devin,

Good luck!

One tip, try and make friends with people there that might already have a job in the field you want, but are finishing off their degree. it never hurts to know people, and they can add some practical experience along with the book knowledge.

[devinemi83]

Well they have a requirement that you HAVE to take an internship in the field of your major and they said that often people end up working for the companies they intern for.



It seems like all the local companies want BS/BA degrees, many even say it doesnt matter what field its in!?! I pretty much figured out from talking to various people at companies that an AS degree isnt worth anything when it comes to programming. They basically told me AS degrees get tech support/help desk roles in the companies and the programmers/database designers/web/ dev is done by people with BABS degrees.

[miamicanes]

The topic's been dormant for a while, but I just thought I'd add a bit.

In the US, at least, a Bachelor's Degree in SOMETHING is mandatory unless you're planning to go work for your family or start your own company. Period. End of story. OK, if you look *really* hard you might find a few who don't, but they're few, far between, and ultimately tend to make less money than their co-workers with degrees. With the current state of the economy, you might as well live off your student loans for another 2 or 3 years and build up a solid educational background to keep future employers happy. A degree won't *impress* anyone, but the lack of one will *definitely* hurt your long-term employment prospects and income potential.

On the brighter side, there's a bit of news that hasn't gotten much press lately, but has employers (especially big companies with LOTS of middle-aged employees) scared to death... Baby Boomer Retirement. That's right... starting around 5 years from now, and peaking sometime around 2010, all the boomers born between 1945 and 1955 are going to start hitting retirement age en masse and leaving the workforce. Even if American companies outsource HALF their workforces to offshore companies, they're STILL going to be scrambling for workers.

The good news? American workers will be earning salaries that make dotcom management salaries look reasonable by comparison. The bad news? Every one of 'em will be paying most of the windfall in higher social security taxes to support an average of TWO retirees. But job security is likely to be quite good, and mass immigration might even become politically tolerable to both parties as the only reasonable way to keep social security from bankrupting retirees' children.

What kinds of programming jobs are the most likely to move offshore? IMHO, mainly development of complete, standalone mass-market products (can we say "Ulead", "Adobe", etc?) and programming components (COM, Java Beans, etc.). What kinds of jobs are the mostly likely to remain firmly rooted here (or quickly move back once companies TRYING to outsource them get burned, and burned badly)? In-house software development and ultra-expensive, highly-customized vertical applications (reporting software for telco switches, billing software, etc.)

Why? It's hard ENOUGH to manage a staff of programmers (herding the cats, so to speak) who are down the hall, let alone on the other side of the world. The moment it becomes necessary for the development team to work closely and intimately with the end users, the efficiency of outsourcing development goes down the toilet.

Getting back to education... for your bachelor's, stick with mainstream computer science. Avoid taking TOO many classes in more business-focused IT-centric disciplines like network management, database administration, etc. Why? It's important for you to understand how relational and object-relational databases work. You REALLY should understand what's going on "behind the scenes" inside a CPU, at least as a broad concept. You should probably have a decent overall understanding of both the Win32 and Unix universes. You MUST know C++... and you'll really want to be comfortable with both dotNet and Java. Once again, total mastery is unnecessary... but knowing enough about object design, networked remote invocation (COM/RMI/SOAP/etc), multithreading, and the basics of writing a meaningful programs in Win32 and Linux are mandatory.

You should know how to download Oracle (for free) from OTN, install a semi-working version of it, and get apps you wrote that work with, say MySQL to work with it instead... but it doesn't really matter at all whether you've mastered the administration of Oracle 9.2, because by the time you graduate it'll be up to version 11 or 12 anyway. Windows will at least one version further along, and Linux will be even MORE refined than it is now. Don't worry about getting CERTIFIED in anything until AFTER you graduate. You'll get more mileage from writing lots of nontrivial apps in your free time to show off to potential employers [tip: it's a lesson generally lost upon HR people, but when PROGRAMMERS interview programmers, you can COUNT upon being asked about your recreational development activities... as far as programmers are concerned, if you're not sufficiently into computers to view programming as a fun recreational activity, you're just some lamer who "got into computers" during the dotcom boom in the hope of making lots of money, but aren't worthy of admission to the elite priesthood. Programming isn't a job... it's a Way of Life].

Now, getting back to C++. Knowledge of it is absolutely CRITICAL. That doesn't mean you necessarily need to know how to use MFC without reference materials or write KDE apps ,but it DOES mean knowing how to untangle a multiple-inheritance tree and troubleshoot buffer overruns. Ditto for Java.

For Java, you can mostly focus on servlet-related stuff, but you should still know how to write decent Swing-based apps, do RMI, and write threadsafe code. The nice thing about Java is that someone who's mastered it can write meaningful C# apps within a matter of days, and be REALLY GOOD at it in a few months. Put another way, if your Java knowledge is solid and you have half a clue how to write meaningful C# apps, you can EASILY come across during an interview as knowing a LOT more about it than you really do

If I haven't said it yet, you should be comfortable in both Linux and Win32. Solaris is a nice plus, but the relationship between Solaris and Linux is kind of like the relationship between C# and Java. If you've mastered Linux, you won't have much difficulty mastering Solaris if/when the time comes... and ultimately, you're WAY more likely to see Linux boxen at your future workplace than Suns. On the other hand, don't kid yourself... if you're writing apps for end users, they're probably going to be for Win32.

What was that? You asked about Macs? Well, if you have rich parents, buy a cool Mac and treat it like the Unix machine it wants to be. But don't blow your 4-year laptop budget on one. You'd be WAY better off buying a cheaper Win32/Linux laptop today (like, say, the eMachines 6807 w/512mb, Athlon64 3000, and DVD writer for $1550), and a new one 2 years from now. And remember... the Macintosh universe is kind of like Singapore: as long as you don't buck the rules or try to be different from everyone else, things will run smoothly and you'll probably be happy. But god help you if you decide to try something that (to Macs, anyway) is really offbeat and weird and goes against The Macintosh Philosophy™ Remember, Apple (as a company) sees NO reason to make even the SLIGHTEST effort to help you do things they didn't envision. Unlike a PC, there's no third-party BIOS to save the day and unlock the hardware's hidden potential. When Apple says "no", they MEAN "NO!".

Finally, a Masters Degree in Software Engineering won't hurt... but it might perversely make it a lot harder to work somewhere besides northern California, Dallas, Washington, and other "core" areas. Then again, 5-10 years from now when the boomers are retiring, it probably WON'T hurt in places like Miami, Atlanta, Chicago, etc. Employers might grumble about having to pay you more and might dither for a few days before hiring you, but ultimately they'll bite the bullet and figure it's better to pay a little more for someone who presumably knows a LOT more about software engineering (vs hacking) than to risk losing you altogether.

Whew... did I actually write all that?

[devinemi83]

Mainly what I want to get into is Software and Database design and project management. I already know alot of VB.net so I am pretty comfy in .NET, and I am very good in VB6. Other languages I plan to check on is C++ and Java. That way I am pretty safe when it comes to programming.


Like I said in another post is that Penn State has a requirement that you take on at least 1 internship and I also qualify for federal work study in which they want you to work in you related field to not only earn living money but also career experience.

Thanks to grants I will come out about 10-11,000 in debt. Not bad considering the quality of education you get. PSU is supposed to be a pretty good school(should be, considering its one of the highest priced public educations), I got invited to an open house last month and got to sit in on an MIS class. It was on telecommunications, I was kinda bored since the stuff was what I considered entry level.

[mehi]

Get a degree in marketing. You'll be able to party more in school and have a better chance getting a job. Keep programming as a hobby.

If you look at what is going on in the United States you will quickly see that nearly no jobs are created in software or electrical engineering. Let alone anything else. I believe non-tech jobs will show up again while computer related jobs will not grow. Bio-tech may grow slightly but there is not much research money with health care costs out of control.

The jobs are being created in India, China and Singapore. Companies like Carly's HP are firing really smart people in Colorado and replacing them with cheap/smart folks in India.

I am damn lucky to still have a job designing chips. There are shit loads of talented people out of work. All you are doing is getting in line. But even if you do get in line (as a cheap inexperienced programmer) you are still too expensive compared to someone willing to work for $5K/year in India!

Vote the bastards out of office and fire the CEOs for letting the brain drain occur.

If I lose my job I'll go out and get training as a truck driver as this can not be out sourced to another country.

Sorry to be a downer but reality sometimes is.

I will not argue with you. You are correct. Jobs are being outsourced into India. And it does suck for people without enough motivation or creativity to make their own successful website or program. But for people who aren't afraid to step out into the cold water, so to speak, and do something themselves, there is an opportunity. Develop something that people have never seen before, stop hopping on the bandwagon of pessimistic thought processes that plagues modern society and try something outside the box. That is what i hope to do once I learn enough programming languages, and know enough about Javascript, HTML, C, C++, PHP, and other various languages. (I don't really care to list everything I want to learn.) If that doesn't work after years and years of hard work, teaching myself how to program, pushing my way through multiple degrees, and slaving away in front of a computer screen trying to think of something that hasn't ever been developed, well then I can always leap off of London Bridge, headfirst. Why not? I've always wanted to see the view from up there come crashing down. Just kidding. If I can't be that motivated, creative person, then I walk away with multiple degrees, which could land me a random job in another field. Either way the odds are in my favor. Go smoke a fat one for me, because you need to.

[mehi]

Also, it's ALIVE! THE POST IS ALIVE!