My chance of getting a programming job?

[devinemi83]

I plan on going to a local community college for programming. They issue associates degrees like most other CCs. I also plan on getting an MCSD cert. I want to find a job programming visual basic.


I was wondering, some have told me it hopeless to get a job without at least a BS. Is this true? Even with a well respected cert like MCSD would I still be up the "shit creek without a paddle"?



Thanks guys!

[lordsmurf]

In this lovely job market, yes.

[trossin]

Get a degree in marketing. You'll be able to party more in school and have a better chance getting a job. Keep programming as a hobby.

If you look at what is going on in the United States you will quickly see that nearly no jobs are created in software or electrical engineering. Let alone anything else. I believe non-tech jobs will show up again while computer related jobs will not grow. Bio-tech may grow slightly but there is not much research money with health care costs out of control.

The jobs are being created in India, China and Singapore. Companies like Carly's HP are firing really smart people in Colorado and replacing them with cheap/smart folks in India.

I am damn lucky to still have a job designing chips. There are shit loads of talented people out of work. All you are doing is getting in line. But even if you do get in line (as a cheap inexperienced programmer) you are still too expensive compared to someone willing to work for $5K/year in India!

Vote the bastards out of office and fire the CEOs for letting the brain drain occur.

If I lose my job I'll go out and get training as a truck driver as this can not be out sourced to another country.

Sorry to be a downer but reality sometimes is.

[devinemi83]

LOL Yeah this market sucks ass. I was told by a company that they get 400 apps for every job and they mostly have BS and years of work experience.

[MpegEncoder]

In this lovely job market, yes.

Especially here on Earth!

[g_shocker182]

Watch Office Space.

[Devanshu]

Watch Office Space.

Thats what I was going to suggest! But anyway, my cousin is a programmer but he had to go back to school for his masters because he wasnt getting a job...I dont want to sway you from your hobby/profession but I wouldnt recommend it.

[lordsmurf]

The jobs are being created in India, China and Singapore. Companies like Carly's HP are firing really smart people in Colorado and replacing them with cheap/smart folks in India.

Carly can rot in hell. Add eBay's CEO Meg Whitman and Disney's CEO Michael Eisner to the list. And let's not forget the ownership of DirecTV and MPAA and RIAA.

Speaking of Office Space, the "I don't really want to go to work anymore and somehow end up with a raise instead method" does really work. I did that once, and I still have no idea how it happened. It's uncanny.

[dwill123]

Companies like Carly's HP are firing really smart people in Colorado and replacing them with cheap/smart folks in India.

Yeah but before they fire the people
they bring their foreign replacements over here on H1B & L1 Visas and make the soon to be fired worker train them.

[gmatov]

I hate this practice of outsourcing to any country, including India.

Probably more than you guys, as I am a Union member, old style, not like some , hell, all of you with whom I disagreed on the supermarket issue in S. CA.

They all lie. In Steel, my industry, they told you we all make 100 grand, whereas a couple peaple actually did make that kind of money, working 100 hour weeks.

The same for the 18 bucks an hour for those grocery workers. They lie like hell to get your sympathy for the company, the execs of which draw down half a mil to 8 or 10 million a year. My own CEO gets 8 million buck bonuses,and says we ddid not make a profit, so, no profit sharing.

This is not rambling, just a lead-in. I read an article in a business mag today about outsourcing tech support, any kind of call center work to India.

The gist of it was that virtually all the workers there are college graduates, and they work for 5 dollars a day, and live well on that salary. It is as much the exchange rate as anything else.

Here, the majority of the call center employees are mere high school grads. This is a job you get till you get a real job, like McDonalds, where you can make "good" money. No sarcasm, here. Dish hires at some 7 to 8 bucks. Our local McDonalds is advertising 8.96 per hour and benefits possible. And no one wants those. Most of ours are staffed by people who either are or should be retired, or high school students.

Do any of you ever get the idea that our money is actually worthless? If you, Devanshu, were back to India, I'm sorry, I forget if you were born here, so maybe should say visited India, were the prices as another citizen of India with whom I had discourse a few months ago, as low as he said?

A kilo, 2.2 pounds of lamb or veal, 47 r. 10 bucks a pound here. 45 and a smidge r to the dollar right now. So, 1 dollar for 22 dollars worth of veal or lamb. Something is f**ked up here.

And it's why we'll keep losing jobs here. As well as continuing to vote Republican, the party of business, although Clinton did push Fast Track for the great flushing sound of NAFTA.

Ah, well, 3 years till retirement and Social Security. I think if it is still here when I go, I should be on the rolls till I die. After that, maybe not so good.

Go out and get good jobs. I need 3 or 4 of you working to carry me.

Cheers,

George

[jgandara]

I came to the US with H1B visa and I can tell you that I am more experience than most of my colleges here, and sometimes I work harder than most of them.

The problem is attitude. A US won't care to learn another language or to try other areas of expertise; they can live and die doing the same thing for many years. Here there is no incentive to get a master degree, in other countries it is, you get paid more and you can have more opportunities to grow within the company.

I was taking some classes for a Mater Degree, which I had to put on hold, but it’s amazing the demographics. 45% were people from Asia (china, Korea…), 45% people from India or Arabic country, and the rest from US people. Also the teachers are from China, Russia, India... Sometimes they are very good workers, some of them aren’t. Also the communication problem is there. I still have that problem, but I’m still working on it.

Our company is going to try outsourcing, with an Indian company, so let’s see how it goes. My only advice, learn as much as you can. Visual Basic won’t give u a job, it’s almost a dead language, it evolved to VB.net. You are going to waist your money. Get a dot net training (C# or VB.net) or Java., buy and book and get started, that’s the way I learn, it’s cheaper and it gives you a better overall idea, it also helps you to get the most of a course.

[gmatov]

jgandara,

Ah, but you have an advantage over us. Here, a foreign language is taken, if at all, for maybe 3 years in middle and high school. Fluency is not required, just that you pass the simple tests designed to pass the majority of the class.

In most of the rest of the world, those countries, at least, with a product or natural resource to sell, I have read that English is a required subject.

I have said, here, numerous times, that those of you who apologize for your "discomfort" with English should stop doing so. In your post, quote---Also the communication problem is there. I still have that problem, but I’m still working on it.

Believe me, your post was far more clearly written than the vast majority of natives posts.

As an aside, not everyone is satisfied with a bachelor's degree. My own youngest daughter is at this moment working toward her MBA in Marketing.

Too many in this country work toward a college degree rather than a college education. There IS a difference.

Do the Indian call center workers actually earn about 50,000r? I read in Forbes some years ago that 300,000 Indians earned 30,000r, and had purchasing power equal to 90,000USD. Is it any wonder that the multinationals move work off shore? Every dollar they save means more available for their bonuses. They owe allegiance to no country. The dollar is their god.

Cheers,

George

[andkiich]

All the IT jobs in my end of the Americas require a Bachelors of Science in something, minimum.

Unless you have years of job experience, most places won't even look at your resume without the BS in the education section.

This is sad, because I learned more on my own than I did at college. It's just the games we need to play in order to work in this world.

The only other option would be to start your own company.

[Tommyknocker]

I thought JGandara had an interesting post. With all the rantings and ravings that proceded his two cents, one blatant fact was nissing: How much do you make, JGandara? If you are the "coolie" labor that is influxed into the U.S., you really are on weak footing saying you replaced someone because you were more educated, when all the while you and other immigrants came cheaper by the dozen.

[jgandara]

I came here hearning like 30,000 a year (in Houston), after a year of work, my salary was $45. During that time, the company (a small consulting firm) earned like a couple of million dollars. They hired people from Mexico the same way. Once people started to move to better paid jobs, they paid aroud 60K a year. I moved to a 62K job, three years ago. I marreid to a US citizen and that's why I was able to move to another job.

Some of my friends moved to Enron and they had a 65K job, of course most of them lost their job, but one.

The company took a lot of bad decisions and right now it only has 2 people working with H1B, they fired most of them.

Just so you compare, I was getting like 17K a year in Mexico. I have my bachelor in Computer Science, and I'm trying to get my Masters here.

I came here like you can move to another company and replace sombody else, you just get a better oportunity. For me it was worth the money and the oporrtunity to expand my resume. I have friends working for MS, and other places in the US; also in Europe. That's how the market works.

I knew my wife in Mexico working as a teacher. The difference is that we, in Mexico, don't see that the americans or canadians take our jobs, that is something good, because they know better the language and can teach better than people whoe english is not their second language.

I also worked for a company where MCI had money invested on. We had people from the US working with us and they really loved it; the opportunity and the experience.

My point is, if you think you are good, you always are going to get a good job. I feel like most people complain that inmigrants take the jobs from you; why they are asummin those jobs belong to them?. As you mentioned this is a marketpalce and money is a great factor.

So the only thing you have to do it learn as much as you can and work as hard as you can.

[RabidDog]

It appears to be the same in the UK.. companies are crying out that they need to employ skilled it labour from o'seas yet there are plenty of people looking for jobs.. and strangeley enough these o'seas workers are 50% cheaper and a walking, talking threat to the natives.. I'm thinking of becoming a rent-man.. at least when you get f+++++ you get paid for it!!

[gmatov]

andkiich,

This is true, and it is the fault, 1, of the education industry, and, 2, of industry in general. BA, BS, whatever, required, and this for trainee position. You don't got the sheepskin, forget it, it's McDs for you.

And, since our college students are considered adults, education is not structured. You WILL do this as in K-12. 12 hours a week in lectures, study your books, you're grown ups now, we don't hold your hand, nor do we force you to learn.

Most kids, from what I can see, waste their first year before they learn to study without guidance. Not all. There are kids with a thirst for knowledge who would learn if they had to scribble in the sand.

Education industry is multi-billions. If you're too dumb to go to college, there's always trade school. Course there are no Tradesmen left to teach anyone, as we have done away with apprenticeships in this country. We're a service economy. Kinda like the 2 guys in a crater on the moon who got rich selling each other rocks. Can't have riches without someone making something. Someone has to have enough money to buy the services

We don't have enough multi-millionaires to use all the services they come up with as ways to part us fools from our dollars.

And, the worst of it is those same multis want to take your job away and send it else where for less wages.

And we have kids whose parents have spent a small fortune as well as the kids themselves who borrowed with loan guarantees, to finance those educations.

Does sumpin' look wrong here?

Ah, well,

Cheers,

George

[gmatov]

I'm going tohave to take exception with some of you guys.

You're assuming the "immigrants" are coming here to take your jobs.

The US corporations pressured the congress to allow them to hire "furriners" under H1B. They could get them cheaper, claiming that there was a dearth of IT people here. And they had a limited time to work here. 1 year or 2 year passes.

I could tell you a story about a Vietnamese who had a job as a drillpress operator in a small factory near here He also was a busboy in a local Denny's. Some of the out of workers were really pissed that that "damn gook" had 2 jobs and they didn't have one. Of course the one they wanted was the drill press job, not the busboy job.

Face it, you're living in a time where, if you don't know your job, it will be pull that gets you in the door, not push.

Oh, yes, I finally get to use my Union card. If you were organized in any way, you would have what we in industry call "seniority". This is, in a way, a protection for an older worker. A 50 year old is not a robust as a 30 year old. So as far as IT is concerned, someone out of school 5 years is not a bright as someone fresh out of school. So you SHOULD be fired and replaced, no? Especially since the new hire, naturally, would be worth lees in dollars. 30,000 bucks, geez, I'm a millionaire.

OK, you are "right to workers", you have a right to work for as little as they want to pay you. S'OK by me. Go coon huntin' or go chop tobacco.

Cheers,

George

[macleod]

gmatov,

When I read your posts (particularly this one), I feel like it is my dad writing it (I mean no disrespect). My father is a recently retired local 600 teamster and he is as badass as they come. He is from the old school, back when picketing wasn't a bunch of wusses sitting around sipping coffee as the scabs passed through the picket.

In St. Louis, the groceries union had a strike and he was specifically told NOT to show up (he loves a goo picket). Anyway, had to get that off my chest.

His union ways have rubbed off on me for the most part. I would never have shopped at Venture or other antiunion establishment (wallworld is still open for debate).

anyway. I agree with a number of the points that you have made in this and I hope that posters from other countries or here in the US that meet the "immigration" statements aren't offended but what is being said, however, it is true that moving jobs overseas and working for less is stealing.

Y'all may disagree, but the things that I have seen in my years support this. The union has a saying, united we negotiate. divided we beg. If people here or abroad say that they will work for less, of course companies are going to do that. You people that think your job is secure are fooling yourselves. The people that say if you know a lot or do a lot you will do fine are just plain wrong. People that think that their employer and/or co-workers and/or managers care about you are le\iving in a dream world. If anyone of them find a way to make more money they will do it, no matter what it does to you or your family.

Basically, the flip side of several years ago has happened. You (we) IT folks use to command a high salary, CRAZY benefits, etc, etc. Now look at what has happened. Y'all are out to screw each other over the first chance you get. The employers are in control again and will continue to do so until we all figure that out. I am not saying to unionize (although some type of brotherhood would be a good idea), but as long as y'all are out to screw each other, y'all are going to lose.

For example, as I mentioned my father is a teamster. 30 years ago, he made a good wage and was able to support his family. BUT, different trucking companies came in (like those overnight bastards) and stole work from him all in the name of competition. They were willing to drive over the road for $8 an hour and be home once a month. Mind you, it didnt start that way, it was somewhat comparable to what my father was making, however, after the union was broken because the employees were told to "trust" their employers, they got screwed and drive unsafe trucks (on your roads) making less than someone from mcd's. My father spent the last year before he retired listening to all those guys whining about how hard their lives are now. Course, being the ass that my dad is, he would chime in every once in awhile and remind them of how it all got that way.

Yes, I am rambling, but I hope that some folks can gleen some of the similiarities in my dronings.

To the guy that wants to get into programming. FORGET it. Everybody and their brother knows VB (or at least says it on the resume). Also, certs will get you as a ticket taker for a few years. You are going to have to do what everyone else has had to do, which is pay your dues. At a number of the companies that I deal with the help desk is filled with folks that have several of their certs making $11 an hour being a ticket taker. You will to. Plus, all these dumbasses out there that have come up with these cheat sites have turned a number of the certs into papers to decorate your wall with. I have a number of people ask me where I got the cheat sheets to pass my tests. Punks never heard of studying.

You might have a prayer learning Oracle. I just keep seeing that the people professions are still doing well. Project Managers, business systems analysts (I say that because that is what I do).

Alright everyone. flame away

[Tommyknocker]

What's a cert?

[pacmania_2001]

Unions artificially inflate supply and demand and are just as responsible for the economy being in the shape it is as is anybody else.

As for IT, everybody in the late 90's saw that "wow, I can make lots of money doing this" so they all jumped ship from their respective industries into the IT sector. It means their is going to be an over supply of labour for years to come until people start moving back into other industries and university/college students choose different areas of study. IT is still a huge growth sector and will continue to grow but not at a rate that was evident during the boom.

If you want to study IT I would recommend combining your studies with a business study be it marketing, commerce, law or something else along those lines. You may not be able to start out doing the job you want but at least it keeps the door open, as well you'll have plenty of job opportunities (they aren't going to high end jobs at first) when it comes time to finish your studies.

And yes, you will probably have to get a Bachelor degree (not sure what the American equivelent is) or more to get your foot in the door at most places. MCSE's and other certificates are a dime a dozen and you'll find that most university and college students will try and obtain them during their holidays. If you still have your heart set on doing them dont go with Microsoft ones, try CISCO and Oracle as not every second person is going to have one.

Try also to get experience in the field you are going to study in as most employers will view that with high regard. Even if that means going to a local employer looking for programmers in your holidays and saying to the person that you are prepared to work for smaller wages or even for free (for a trial period) to show that you are a dedicated and hardworking person. You get experience and they get cheap labour and then in the future if they are looking for workers they have your name handy plus you have experience.

As for immigrants stealing jobs. The same thing happened in the past with textile and clothing jobs as well as other unskilled jobs. It's the principles of economics that such a thing will happen. That is why economies evolve and have done so in the past. Look at any western developed country. They have gone from an agricultural based economy to an industrialised economy to a service driven economy. In the future it will again change.

[jgandara]

I don't think stealing jobs is a good term, not in terms of economics. Supply and demand, the companies demand lower investment and higher ROI (Return of investments). It's just like you and me, we want to earn more with the minimum effort.

Right now, China is a very good economy, why?, because it's cheap labor. At one time it was Mexico, Korea, Taiwan. India is a cheap workforce supply also.

We live in a global economy now, whatever happens in Russia, Brazil or any other country on the world, will affect the US. Look at the conflicts in Iraq and the gas prices. Same thing with Venezuela or Japan.

The economy has to evolve, the US goverment is very protective of their country. Right now the European Union is suing the US for unfair trading. The US goverment puts a lot of money to agriculture, steel, gas products. If they keep doing that, they will alienate them from other economies, and it's going to be more painful for the whole country, because they won't be able to compete.

Right now you not only compete against your local folks, right now you compete against anybody, anywhere, and that's the way it is, you have to accept that. That's the price of a global economy.

[grossjamesh]

Devinemi83,
I would suggest that anyone starting out in or thinking of a technical career get a BS degree. It doesn't really matter what BS degree you get.
I work with Chem Es, MEs, EEs CEs and CS holders. Dont be fooled by negative comments about H1B holders or out sourcing. The US has the largest and most diverse economy anywhere and the US comes up short several hundered thousand engineers a year(that is why companies import H1B holders).
Not all engineering work lends itself to out sourcing, many companies are finding that the hidden cost of out sourcing is in the loss of in house skills, language problems, culture diffculties and quality problems. Some companies have learned a hard lesson about overseas out sourcing and some have yet to count the cost.
Many overseas based engineering companies are starting to locate on shore and hiring US engineers.

Think about this: Why do foreign students flock to US engineering schools? Why does the rest of the world have a "brain drain" and the US doesn't?

As to a programming language to learn - learn Object design, operating systems design, data base principals, learn HOW things work. In the process you will pickup C/C++, JAVA, C#, Assemblers, ect.

As a parting example - Where is most of the SW used in TV developed?

[macleod]

cert = certification

Unions artificially inflate supply and demand and are just as responsible for the economy being in the shape it is as is anybody else.

That, like everything else, is true to a certain extent, however, not all unions do this. The original concept of the union was to unite the employees to be able to collectively bargain. Granted some unions have gotten a little crazy and it is true that some of their own have screwed them over. But people, like yourself look at unions as a bad thing. Its amazing over the years how the mindset of what a union is has changed. Its also still a little surprising that people still have a global view of what unions are. I cant speak to all of the unions, however, for the ones that I am familiar with, I am damn glad they are there.

Actually, I reread this comment and could you provide a little more information as I am not 100% sure of what you mean that it inflates supply and demand?

I do agree with your other comments about what the original poster should do. The certIFICATIONS (for tommyknocker ) should be used to enhance your resume on top of a bachelors degree, but shouldnt replace the bachelors degree. You may also consider getting a masters. 20 year ago, an Associates was the min requirements, now a Bachelors degree is. In another few years, probably a Masters degree will be the foot in the door.

I dont agree though with the idea of going to work somewhere as cheap labor to gain experience. All that is going to do is screw over the next guy. Just think in 10 years after you have established yourself as an IT professional doing whatever being laid off/fired because a new kid on the block will do your job cheap or free. Remember, it all comes around. I know it isnt the answer you are looking for, but most of the people here have (or are still) paying their dues. At least for right now, the 100k job with a certIFICATION are gone. You want to compete with other folks, get an education and also get some certIFICATIONS that will enhance your resume. Try some interning.

[pacmania_2001]

I don't think stealing jobs is a good term.

I think it is too and I apologise if you took offence, I was using the terminology of the above posters. I also would agree 100% with your views on the economy and it being world based. Now, due in a large part to technology a company must not be worried only about their rival across town, but across the other side of the country and in a whole different country.

That is why free trade and organisations like the World Trade Organisation are such an important part of our society and like you said, once America realises that by protecting it's economy (through subsidies, tariffs and incentives) the long term gains will far outweigh the short term impact.

By the way jgandara, may I ask what course you are completing a master's degree in? From my initial readings of your posts I was under the influence that is was engineering or science based however your grasp of economics and commerce is quite good.

Actually, I reread this comment and could you provide a little more information as I am not 100% sure of what you mean that it inflates supply and demand?

Sorry, my mistake, the original statement should have read "Unions artificially alter supply and demand ". It ties in with the minimum wage arguement that by setting a artificial wage (that the union agrees it's members will work for) instead of having the wage decided by the market (how a true capitalist system should work) then a number of things happen.

For example (just a brief summary, could write an essay about the effects) the increased wages increase the over all project costs. These costs are passed on to the customer/client. The flow on effect of that is eventually prices as a whole rise and the union members that are estatic that they may have recieved say a 5% wage rise is now eaten away by higher costs of living.

I agree that in theory unionism sounds good and if done correctly can have benefits like increased workplace health and safety however very few unions practice this.

[jgandara]

I'm doing my Master in Computer Science, but I'm thinking on doing something a little bit more specialized and practical like Network security or Project Managment. The problem with the Master in Computer Science is that, I can take those classes in the afternoon, so some of them are interesting and some of them are not. Most classes are for reserch and not for practical use. I just took a couple of economic classes in college.


I agree with grossjamesh, in college you learn how to use any language by knowing how a program works, from bits, commands, compiling to execution of code. From there you can learn any language you want (if you are good enough)

Macleod, you said:

I dont agree though with the idea of going to work somewhere as cheap labor to gain experience. All that is going to do is screw over the next guy. Just think in 10 years after you have established yourself as an IT professional doing whatever being laid off/fired because a new kid on the block will do your job cheap or free.

I think salary is not as important as the experience you can get in a job. If that's your point, I think you are wrong. Imagine that you get paid $100 to do small programs in Visual Basic and Access. Good paid job and easy to do.

In the other hand imagine you can get paid $50 to work in c++, java, SQL server and Oracle.

In five year, imagine who will have more experience and who will get a better job? If you are getting experience, you always can get a better job, or at least, in a slow economy, who can get a job?.


I moved from being a programmer to a Hardware support (installing computers). Yuo don't have any idea how much I learned about OS, databases, network administration, internet services. I earned a little more than my previous job, but it paid 100%, it doubled my salary and the beg me to stay. I moved later to another programming position.

BTW, now I'm working with residence status, so I'm in the same situation as you are. My company is outsourcing and i'm worried because of my family, but hey, just work hard and make yourself irreplaceable.

[macleod]

I'll start out first by saying that I am a hypocrite. I dont practice what I am about to write:

Posters are talking about capitalism is great and the market should decide what a person ultimately gets paid to do a job. It is a great concept when you walk into Wal-mart, for example, and get an item at a rock bottom price. Now look at the clerk that is checking your item out. They are getting paid a non-living wage to do his/her job. Is that right? The market did decide that that is what that clerk should get paid, but is that right????

Same thing goes for other industries. Its a common fact that in a lot of businesses, humans are the biggest cost. Think about yourselves and what you are actually worth to the company (be honest). Y'all have this idea that you can make yourself irreplaceable. Aint gonna happen. If businesses can find a way to do something cheaper, they'll do it.

With the previous posters comment about salary is not as valuable as experience. I am totally confused. I am sorry, but the reason that I drag my ass out of bed each morning is to provide a roof over my families head, food in their stomachs, and keep them in comfort.

When I was younger I had that same idea. Work hard for a company, gain experience, and the company will reward you. Boy, it was a sad day when my rose-colored glasses were knocked off.

Yes, I know that people say that job satisfaction and experience are important, but why do y'all get up in the morning? FOR MONEY!!! End of story.

What you are talking about with the easy job for $100 a pop is consulting in a way. In 5-10 years, your job will be taken by somebody else that will do the job that you were hired to do for less.

I have a good job doing what I do now, but I am ALWAYS on the look out for something better because my employer is always doing the same thing.

[jgandara]

I think we were talking about IT jobs, where experience is a big deal. If you cook burgers, you have a lot of places to work, you don't gain experience in that. If you know several languages, OS, databases, then you need experience, and depending on that, you will increase your salary. You want experience in order to get more money, but there are times when you have to sacrifice money if you see the opportunity of getting experience. That doesn’t mean all of us can do it, because of family or an economic situation, like buying a house, car.

My comments was referring that if you get more experience, you can aspire to get a better job, you won’t plan to stay on the same job forever; there is a point where you can’t get more experience and you move on. Although this is not always true, age and sex can be a factor to get a job.

What you are talking about with the easy job for $100 a pop is consulting in a way. In 5-10 years, your job will be taken by somebody else that will do the job that you were hired to do for less.

That guy is dead in the water because he didn’t improve his skills, the other guy ($50 K) got experience, and if he can be replaced, it’s because maybe the job is not worth it, he can have more opportunities with the experience he gained. It also depends in your capabilities, if you don’t get a raise, maybe you don’t deserve it. If you are replaced, maybe you are not working as you are supposed to. A burger boy can’t make himself irreplaceable; an IT guy can. If you are the only one that know the billing system of a company, you won't be replaced that easly, you can but you have better chance not to. If you are among a 10 people team who program only VB, then you can easly be replaced; if you know java, c++ and do internet programming also, you have better chance to stay in the company.

To resume, learning VB only will not take you where you want, right now you must at least learn something else like java, c++, .net maybe (it’s pretty new, but it looks strong). You should be able to program for desktop apps. and internet/intranet apps.

[Jukka]

Yeah I hate all of this outsourcing from the UK abroad. The government goes on about how we live in a global economy. Yes we do but when I call a call center I want to understand who I am talking to. This is by no means meant as an offence to any Indians, etc. Lots of the UK call centres are in Glasgow (Scotland) and I can't understand them either.

I think the government should be worried on this one - typically the call centres are in the North in depressed areas and staffed by 18-25's. And what happens? They lose their job, do you think they will vote for the Gov? *** SORRY POLITICS ***

Also what about the practical things - India and Pakistan are still on edge with each other? What if it all kicks off, where does that leave the call centres and the companies that run them.

When I end up running a big business I will have an explicit policy of employing in our own country and of buying British wherever possible (hell our own Government doesn't even do that!).

J

[pacmania_2001]

That is the hidden cost of out sourcing for companies (like grossjamesh
said) where people find they don't recieve the same level of service from an out sourced function like a call centre. In time companies will see this and will then decide whether it is still cost effective to have off shore operations. The best thing you can do is lodge complaints with their head office saying you are displeased with the service you are recieving from the Indian (or whatever) call centres.

As for the example of the Walmart worker. Capitalism isn't a perfect system but it is very effective. Take the Walmart example, because the supply of labour available for that job is huge (because it is an unskilled job) then the wage for the position is accordingly low.

Now if the person is unhappy with their wages then a couple of things could happen (hypotheticals in this situation). The clerk could go back to school and get a better education/training for a position that pays better or they could move to another industry where the supply of labour is less or demand is more. Additionally the clerk could decide to take up a life of crime or become homeless. That is however were government intervention comes in, with things like transfer payments (welfare).

In a true capitalist system there really shouldn't be a government however the market system does have it flaws when things like crime, the need for national defence, civil policing and public education are introduced.

As for your example of the person doing the job for 5-10 years before being under cut by say a graduate who is prepared to do the job for half the salary. It really depends on the logic (and whether it is flawed) that the employer is using, if after the 10 years the employee in question had developed useful experience, tacit knowledge, built customer relations and knows the workplace procedures then the employer must put a price on this implicit costs. If the employee with experience (call him/her Employee A) has implicit skills worth $50,000 a year compared to Employee B (graduate with no experience) who commands a $25,000 starting salary then by using proper logic the employer should keep Employee A if the salary to do so is $75,000 or less.