I Want TMPGEnc DVD Encodes at 1:1...

[indolikaa]

...and I'm willing to pay for it!

Me and the lovely Mrs. Indolikaa have decided to build a box strictly for video editing and encoding. Why? Because with the exception of video encoding, our Athlon T-Bird systems run just fine, thank you. No, really. How much horsepower do you need to run Pharaoh and 1602 AD?

Anyway, after many hours of research and pondering, here is what we have come up with.

Asus P4C800-E Motherboard
Reason: P4 HT, Dual Channel DDR, SATA/IDE RAID, USB/Firewire, AGP 8X, Etc.

Intel Pentium 4 2.4Ghz Hyper-Threader in Retail Box
Reason: Best CPU in Cost vs. Performance

OCZ 1GB Dual-Channel DDR400 CL2 Pairs (2, 256x2)
Reason: Reputation

Maxtor S-ATA 80Gb Hard Drives, Pair
Reason: Previous history with Maxtor drives in RAID configuration

LG GSA-4040B Tri-Format DVD Recorder
Reason: Why not?

WindowsXP Professsional
Reason: Because Win2000 won't support Hyper-Threading

I'm sure we'll end up with a 500-Watt or larger power supply and the appropriate case with mods. I'm kinda partial to Blue LEDs and Tubes myself.

The primary goal is to move our satellite PVR material from PVR through DV to DVD/CD as fast as possible. I have had zero satisfaction with any of the hardware-encoding, real-time MPEG-2 boxes, and I still have a large number of older VHS and Beta tapes to transfer. And it would be nice to play with some of those VirtualDub/TMPGEnc tools and not have to wait 24 hours to see the results.

This system is pegged at $1079.00, shipping included, for the horsepower above.

I still consider myself a newbie to this hobby and I haven't seen a lot in the way of real-number speed comparisons. If you have similar horsepower under your hood, we sure would like to see what your DVD encoding times look like.

Thank You!
indolikaa and taandyria

[The village idiot]

Using a different encoder (mainconcept based) I get nearly real time with a P4 2Ghz and 256MB ram, so 2.4 with HT should get you real close. DV is my source.

[pixel]

I had a 2.4GHz non Hyper-Threading and here are my typical times:
(all CBR and output res is same as input)

VCD: half the length of movie
SVCD: roughly twice the length of the movie
half D1 DVD: roughly slightly slower than real-time
D1 DVD: three times length of movie.

for DVD to VCD encodes I could do that in real-time.

On the TMPGEnc site it says that the Hyper-Threading can give up to a 35% boost so you will get faster encode times than I have mentioned.

(All the times will depend on what your source format is and what its resolution is, also frameserving will affect the times.)

Try researching your S-ATA drives a bit, I was nearly decided on Maxtor, but someone told me they were quite loud, so I went for SeaGate and they are pretty quiet.

[RabidDog]

suprising there is such a big diff between svcd and half d1 (cvd) as they arent that different.

[bugster]

Using TmpGemc, 2.8 P4 (non HT), 512Mb ram, source DV, destination DVD (Full D1), 2-pass VBR, avg 4500, no filters, Motion search normal, encode time approx 3-4x length of movie.

If you want to encode to Full D1 in near real-time, don't use Tmpgenc.

[g_shocker182]

TMPGEnc does deliver higher quality output than other MPEG encoders.

On my 2ghz 256ram machine I get a 1h30m movie done in about 2-3 hours.

[rallynavvie]

Have you tried a hardware MPEG card?
http://www.canopus.us/US/products/dvstorm_2/pm_dvstorm_2.asp

[indolikaa]

Thanks for taking a few minutes to help us out!

Village Idiot: I downloaded MC 1.4 recently and have been trying it out. It is definitely much faster but I haven't done a disc/disc comparison between it and TMPGEnc. It seems pretty good on the monitor, though!

Pixel: Your numbers are duly-noted. dB will be an issue with this machine, so I will check further on the hard drives.

RabidDog: Interesting. I wonder why?

Bugster: Yes, a large part of what we will encode will be Full D1 from satellite (DishNetwork and DirecTV) so I'm open to further recommendations on what to use.

G_Shocker182: What would be a typical encode setting for you? That's about a 2:1 ratio, which wouldn't be so bad in our situation.

Rallynavvie: Just checked it out. Hmmm...

Again, thanks for your input. We will make our decision by Thursday so feel free to keep posting!

indolikaa/taandyria

[mrtristan]

Do you use any filters? I can encode DV to DVD in near realtime, if I don't select any filters. However, I usually encode tv captures to SVCD-ish, with the noise filter enabled. It takes about 8 hours per 26 minutes of video, as opposed to real time.

I tried a whole bunch of frameserving tricks, but it still takes quite a while, when the noise reduction filter is enabled. The other filters don't really add a significant amount of time.

[g_shocker182]

G_Shocker182: What would be a typical encode setting for you? That's about a 2:1 ratio, which wouldn't be so bad in our situation.

No extra settings to delay me. I just frameserve with DVD2AVI before hand and voila!, no 24hr encodes like I've heard some people endur.

[bugster]

TMPGEnc does deliver higher quality output than other MPEG encoders.

On my 2ghz 256ram machine I get a 1h30m movie done in about 2-3 hours.

Using what settings, 2-pass VBR, CQ, or CBR. What Spec, Full D1, 1/2 D1, SVCD? What bitrates, 2Mbs, 4Mbs or 8Mbs. Your times mean little without this info.

CBR or maybe even CQ, I can encode at similiar speeds that you claim, but on a 2.8P4, encoding DV to Full D1 resolution with motion search precision set to Fast. However I prefer to use 2-pass VBR and MSP set to High. This allows me to know the final output file size and give me the quality I want. It means I have to accept longer encode times but I am happy to do that.

@indolikaa, if you want fast quality encodes using Tmpgenc, try CQ mode. The quality is great, just predicting final file size is very difficult.

[rallynavvie]

The DVStorm2 is not cheap, last I heard you could get them for around $1000, but I've seen it in action and it was the perfect solution to the "realtime" problem for the price. I believe they're even offering it as a bundle with the Adobe Video Collection as well, and supposedly it works really well with Premiere and AfterEffects. I almost bought one several months ago from a reseller on eBay but they set their reserve at OEM so I won the auction at just over $800 for the same relisted item seven times but never met reserve

Which hardware were you using that you didn't like? Canopus makes some cheaper MPEG hardware but I haven't heard anything bad about it. The above card would be the cheapest I'd go for an MPEG encoder though.

[pixel]

suprising there is such a big diff between svcd and half d1 (cvd) as they arent that different.

That was just me rounding it up from what I could remember from that processor.

For CVD res it is probably just slightly longer (maybe about 1 and a quarter of the length) than realtime for a CBR encode and for SVCD res it is probably closer to 1 and three quarters to 2 times the length of the movie.

[indolikaa]

@indolikaa, if you want fast quality encodes using Tmpgenc, try CQ mode. The quality is great, just predicting final file size is very difficult.

I'll give it a try. Why not? Is there any rule that will give you even a rough idea of what quality:filesize will be?

Which hardware were you using that you didn't like?

Oh, the standard stuff newbies buy because they don't know much better. Dazzle, Pinnacle, ADS/AVS, etc. The only thing I've really liked is my old Sony DCR-TRV Digital8 camcorder with the passthru.

Actually, I liked the Dazzle DVC-II for everyday recordings but the thing was just too unpredictable as to whether Windows could find it. Everybody kept telling me, "You need more power!"

Hardly, I say! I run a 550-watt power supply for the main system, and the drives are in a separate case with their own 400-watt supply. I kinda felt is was not a power issue at that point.

* The Soyo Dragon 2 Platium Edition is raising some eyebrows. Anyone?

[Conquest10]

I'll give it a try. Why not? Is there any rule that will give you even a rough idea of what quality:filesize will be?

You could encode a small sample and then multiply to estimate the file size.

[indolikaa]

But then I'd have to work for myself to find the answer!

[Conquest10]

You could also try ToK. Don't know if it works for dvd but you give it a file and tell it what file size you want it to be and it calculates the cq. You need Avisynth for it though.

[indolikaa]

I can do this. AVISynth doesn't scare me too much.

I've been reading/studying the difference between DV and analog-capture AVI. I didn't realize DV was a CODEC, and that's funny considering I had to download and install the Panasonic DV 'CODEC' to do what I do with video. Duh!

Indolikaa. Only slightly sharper than a plastic spoon.

[lordsmurf]

Pure MPEG hardware isn't as good as MPEG software, just faster. This being something I read from both Canopus and Matrox, as well as viewing their examples.

The computer looks fine. I'd be surprised if you didn't get top-speed TMPGEnc encodes.

I prefer RAMBUS's RDRAM though. I've seen better results against all other RAM's and know a few other people that have come to similar conclusion.

I would dump Maxtor for Western Digital (although new Maxtor and WD are the same drives supposedly, same company).

WinXP Pro is good choice.

I like Intel motherboards, but see nothing wrong with Asus. I'm motherboard-stupid for the most part.

Get a case that can hold up to 8 devices if you ever decide to add an Ultra ATA expansion card (more internal full-bay or HD-sized devices/drives). Otherwise you'll be doing what I do, stacking things where they don't really belong, after having taken a hacksaw and drill to the case.

Price is cheap.

[bugster]

@indolikaa, if you want fast quality encodes using Tmpgenc, try CQ mode. The quality is great, just predicting final file size is very difficult.

I'll give it a try. Why not? Is there any rule that will give you even a rough idea of what quality:filesize will be?

There is a tool to assist in calculating CQ filesizes available from Kwags site (www.kvcd.net). Havn't tried myslef so can't vouch for it in anyway.
(is that Tok that conquest10 mentioned?)

[Conquest10]

There is a tool to assist in calculating CQ filesizes available from Kwags site (www.kvcd.net). Havn't tried myslef so can't vouch for it in anyway.
(is that Tok that conquest10 mentioned?)

Yup, that's the one. Its pretty accurate when fitting a movie on one cd-r. It has an optional setting for custom size so I think indolikaa should be able to use it for dvd.

[rallynavvie]

Get a case that can hold up to 8 devices if you ever decide to add an Ultra ATA expansion card (more internal full-bay or HD-sized devices/drives)

Be careful when doing this though. First, your power supply has to be able to handle all those drives so be sure to get one with power to spare and perhaps has seperate rails for your ATX power and your peripherals. Second, if you're stacking HDDs in there make sure you've got adequate cooling: 7200rpm drives can get warm when moving around large files for a prolonged period of time (such as encodes, captures, etc.). I haven't used SATA enough to know how hot they get but I'd assume their 10krpm drives get just as hot as 10krpm SCSI drives and I know those get HOT. Fortunately if your case has lots of 5.25" bays there are plenty of HDD coolers that mount into those, and 3.5" bays sometimes have enough clearance to add those HDD coolers that mount right to the top of the drive.

I like how you say you've got your drives in another box, that would be ideal. I'd love to have all my hard drives and optical drives in another box to keep all that heat away from my CPUs and system components. What are you using to bridge the two boxes?

[indolikaa]

LordSmurf,

If I could find an 800MHz HT Bus board that supports RDRAM I'd bumb it to the top of the list. But I can't find one. Maybe I'm just a tad bit blind, though.

Western Digital makes a 36GB 10K SATA drive, and I like it. I wouldn't mind RAIDing a couple of those together. We're still debating hard drive sizes and quantities. I've been told the capture drive should not only be a separate drive, but on a separate controller, if possible. That is doable in any configuration we've come up with.

Your thoughts on the case are duly noted.

Yeah, the price caught me off-guard too. I was expecting a lot more.

.indolikaa.

[The village idiot]

I would dump Maxtor for Western Digital (although new Maxtor and WD are the same drives supposedly, same company).

I did some checking on this and did not find any proof that they are the same company. There was a merger of some drive platter manufacturers, but I see no evidence that WD still uses that platter. And that is also like saying ALL CMC made disks are garbage, when people keep saying that the Philips disks are much better than the standard CMC crap.

That said I do have a Maxtor in regular use now. It runs more quietly than the comparable Seagate and about the same as the comparable WD. But it runs much hotter and takes a slightly larger amount of current to make it work than the WD, but less current than the Seagate, still more heat than the Seagate. Nicest feature is the half height design, which would allow for better airflow when the drives are stacked.

A little off topic, but just needed to put that in.

[The village idiot]

BTW, I've seen some SATA external cases around, that might be the way to go for cooling and power issues. Also good for making large RAID arrays from small fast SATA drives.

[indolikaa]

There we go. I much prefer external cases for drives, even if it means mod'ing them. This is where SCSI kicked butt for many years.