need help building friend's $20,000 system

[farmkid]

My friend teaches 8th grade at a local school and he just got a $21,000 grant to put together a video production system for the school. The idea is that his students will shoot video of school stuff each week and make a 10 minute video to show in home room each week. At the end of the year, they will produce a video yearbook on DVD for parents to purchase. He has asked me to help him on the hardware end of it, but I don't have a lot of experience in something of this scale. I am hoping to get some advice from the vast experience on this forum.

Cameras:
He wants to get 5 general duty cameras with external microphones and one nicer camera (e.g. Canon GL2 or similar). The primary qualification for the general duty cameras is that they must be VERY DURABLE. They will be carried around and used by a bunch of 8th graders, so they basically need to be bullet proof. Good video and audio quality is also highly desirable. Any suggestions on which cameras would be good to consider?

Computers:
I have two ideas for the computers.
(1) He already has 5 iMacs. One idea would be to keep the iMacs and buy a something like a dual Opteron or Xeon server. The server would have all the data on it and the iMacs would be used for the editing. So, the students would open their files on the iMacs, do whatever editing they wanted to do, and then let the faster machine do the actual encoding.
This option would likely be cheaper than buying 5 new computers and would use already exising hardware, however it would be harder to set up and maintain. If the server crashed, the whole system would be down for a while.
(2) Toss the iMacs and buy 5 new, faster computers that would be networked, but operate independently. According to what I have seen, the new Athlon FX-51 processors run circles around any other desktop processor in video encoding. Does the speed of these justify the cost?

My questions are: Which option is better for this situation? If the first, then what would be the best way to set it up? Would a G5 be better than a Opteron or Xeon (just to keep everything Mac)? If the second, then any suggestions on the hardware would be appreciated. I think I can build a decent system, but this situation requires something that goes together easy and runs without a hiccup.

Software:
I have little experience with all the different software packages out there. I am leaning toward the Adobe Video Collection (includes Premiere, Aftereffects, Audition, and Encore) but I have never used any of these titles. I have just heard good things about them. The academic price on this package is $449. Is this overkill, or would it be good for the students to learn on a software package like this? Any other packages i should consider?

Thanks is advance for your help.

[Nelson37]

Is the primary goal to get the video produced or for the students to learn useful, real-world skills?

I would assume the latter since we are talking about a school. Therefore, I would stick to hardware the students are more likely to run into in the real world, PC's. Also the Adobe software, as it is among the very best consumer software available and likely to still exist several years into the future.

As far as the camera durability, this will be a major problem. I would figure on at least one smashed or stolen camera per year. Some level of student responsibility should be written into a binding contract. I would consider something like the underwater housings available, though with some units and cameras the housing is approaching the replacement cost of the camera. DO NOT FORGET TRIPODS!!!

[The village idiot]

This is going to seem very negative, but...

If you don't already know the answers to your above questions, you really shouldn't be recommending and building the systems for the school. You will also need to provide support for these systems after the sale.

[Cornucopia]

...DO NOT FORGET TRIPODS!!!

And light(s), microphone(s), a mixer, batteries, tape stock, dvd burner and stock (?), speakers, a tv/monitor, tape or DVD player, cables and adapters, INSURANCE, etc...

Get less quantity and more quality--it'll last longer.

If you haven't done purchase consulting before, now might not be the best time to start.

Scott

[jaxt]

. . . and as fantastic as Encore is, it's only for Windows. So forget about getting it for those iMacs.

[indolikaa]

This is going to seem very negative, but...

If you don't already know the answers to your above questions, you really shouldn't be recommending and building the systems for the school. You will also need to provide support for these systems after the sale.

True, and to continue the thought...

If the school district in question is like most in the US, you will have to provide full warranty service and probably do so on-site. And don't even think about intsalling and connecting any of the equipment until you've made sure there aren't any local unions (IBEW or CWA) that have first-rights to such work.

If you haven't done purchase consulting before, now might not be the best time to start.

Excellent advice. Heed the words of those more experienced. This is Pandora's Box just waiting to explode.

.indolikaa.

[farmkid]

Thanks for all the help so far.

This is going to seem very negative, but...

If you don't already know the answers to your above questions, you really shouldn't be recommending and building the systems for the school. You will also need to provide support for these systems after the sale.

I should point out that I am not being paid for any of this, and I am not selling anything to my friend. He is ultimately responsible for setting everything up, and he asked for my help. I know what I can do and what I can't, and I won't get in deeper than I can handle. I know when to suggest he hire a professional.

...And don't even think about intsalling and connecting any of the equipment until you've made sure there aren't any local unions (IBEW or CWA) that have first-rights to such work.

Does this mean that if there is a union, then my friend (the teacher) can't even plug in a keyboard or a monitor or whatever?

[farmkid]

Based on the replies so far, I don't think I made my questions clear.
1. Based on your experience, what cameras are particularly fragile or durable?

2. I am alreadly leaning toward suggesting he buy new PC's for the reasons already stated. But is there some inherent advantage to the other idea I am missing? Other thoughts?

3. Since I am a poor college student myself, I don't have any money to buy software. I have only used freeware, shareware, and Pinnacle Studio (free after rebate at Fry's). Therefore, I don't have any experience with the better stuff, and am therefore asking for the advice of you all to pass on to my friend.

[BJ_M]

you should really talk to people at these 3 companies and have them give you a quote (as in put it out to tender) .. they are some of the most respected names in the bussness and extremly good reputation ..



http://www.bhphotovideo.com
http://www.sharbor.com/
http://www.videoguys.com



myself i would go with either a G5 w/ final cut pro and run also FCP on the imacs for training

or

premiere + encore on a p4 (you dont need a dual xeon system as you really dont have the budget once you factor in all your costs) ..

or

sony vegas + dvda on a p4

or

a Video toaster system

you will need robust cameras -- maybe sony digital 8 as they are fairly tough and you will not have the money for GL-2's

have each of the companies give you options on 2 systems possably ...

Be clear to them for fairness that you are shopping around and need advice ...

they can build a whole package up including all cables and such to your specs ..

Nornally a school board requires everything go to tender and even then they might shop around your specs (pretty normal) ..

[indolikaa]

indolikaa wrote:
...And don't even think about intsalling and connecting any of the equipment until you've made sure there aren't any local unions (IBEW or CWA) that have first-rights to such work.

Does this mean that if there is a union, then my friend (the teacher) can't even plug in a keyboard or a monitor or whatever?

Ah, Indolikaa's heart is warmed by the faint hint of sarcasm.

Generally speaking, the answer would be 'no' to your question.

As for Opterons and Xeons and Athlon64s, I would suggest they are sheer overkill and pure budget-busters. A good P4 HT set-up should be more than enough for fast video processing. In my experience, when it comes to the execution of video code, Intel blows AMD away.

I cannot speak for the Macintosh community, but I suspect iMacs tied to a pair of G5 processors is more than enough horsepower for your needs. Maybe a little pricey, but certainly cheaper than a Silicon Graphics array?

There is no such thing as a durable CE camcorder. You want durability, you move into the professional field, and that will make the price of a Dual Xeon system look like a side order of fries. Don't think durability, think easily replacable. I personally like my DCR-VX2000, but it is not what I would call built for durability. It would make a wonderful 'nicer' camcorder. I use Digital8 for everday camera work.

I do all of my video editing and production using the following programs: WinDV, VirtualDub, TMPGEnc and DVD-Lab, with the occasional use of MovieStar (A Dazzle program) and Video Studio. But, if I had a need for anything more feature-rich, I'd go with the Adobe Collection.

If you do choose to dump the Macs and use Wintel workstations, keep in mind you'll need network connections that can move very large files.

.indolikaa.

[FOO]

I want to know what school district is spending my
extremely high property taxes on a person without
a DETAILED business plan UP FRONT. Whoever approved that
grant needs to get fired from the school board.

[farmkid]

I want to know what school district is spending my
extremely high property taxes on a person without
a DETAILED business plan UP FRONT. Whoever approved that
grant needs to get fired from the school board.

He didn't tell me where the money came from, but my impression was that it came from some outside source. It was actually a school safety grant. The school is in a rougher part of town, and the way he wrote the grant was that it would increase school pride. The idea is that as the students work on the video and as the other students see these videos about their school and fellow students, it will build a sense of community and increase school pride. Besides teaching a group of students (it is for his leadership class) about video production, it is supposed to improve the school environment. (Yeah, it sounded like a bunch of bs to me too, and I am amazed it got funded. But, I hope it works.)

[tandynor]

if its in a rougher part of toen, then you should go with the cheap stuff! give me 20,000 bucks! Ill get you 6 mini DV cams, build 5 PCs from frys electronics, get freeware for the software. probably spend no more than $4,000 and pocket the rest! 20,000 dollars seems a little overkill.

[dang]

I just graduated college and I am starting my own video production company. Its a slow process, but someday I hope to quit my day job. I have invested much time into finding the cheap way of doing things. Anyways, I would suggest the newer Panasonic ag dv7. I beleive they are about $1000 from BH photo (good reputation) and they are marketed as a "pro" camera They look professional: big and designed to rest on the shoulder, but they only have 1 CCD. However, in my opinion there is not much difference between a 3 CCD and a 1 CCD, just a little less color in a 1 CCD, not a big deal for 8th graders. If you want a truly professional camera then get a canon gl2. Or the panasonic pv dv953 has a 3CCD design and you can find bundled packages for $1200 on Ebay, but it is a palmcorder camera and it is small. Avid is pretty much the industry standard for video editing so I would recomend this as your editing software. I beleive you can buy a copy of Avid Xpres DV that is sold only to schools or colleges for around $600. I use Main Concpet's Main Actor 5, its only $200 and does everything I need it do and it is setup in much the same way as Avid. Finally, for the actual computers, try tigerdirect for a "DVD burner" complete system. They should come with enough memory and a good processor that can keep up with editing. I belieive these systems run less than $1000. Good luck. I wish I had $20,000 to invest in my company.

[SquirrelDip]

Just my two cents worth:

1. Consider Digital8 for the "student" camcorders. They seem to be pretty durable, a little cheaper and the media is cheap and easily obtained.

2. Don't use any customized computer - stick with Dell, HP/Compaq (others?). It would be easier to obtain service.

3. Consider removable hard drives for data. 120MB can be had pretty cheap and a simple "rack" system ($15-$20) in each computer could separate data from class to class.

4. Consider an external DVD burner - one or two burners could support many computers.

[overloaded_ide]

I want to know what school district is spending my
extremely high property taxes on a person without
a DETAILED business plan UP FRONT. Whoever approved that
grant needs to get fired from the school board.

Hey Foo,
I would normally agree about goverment grants, but many large corperations give out grants freely and those you grab if you can!
Then work out details because you have the money to do so

I have seen businesses get a grant they didn't expect to get but applied for anyway. When they get it they then have to find some way to spend the extra money or lose it

Years ago a friend needed $15,000 for a business he had, applied for a grant someplace, got $25,000!
Then he had to figured out a way to spend the extra $10,000 on a use that the grant was for.

Sometimes you have to give details right down to the penny, other times a general here's my idea and I need money for it is enough.

There are billions in non-goverment grants available, finding them is the problem, and lots of scams around trying to sell the info how to applie for them. But if you can find them, they are there! I never got one or even applied for one, but people I've known have gotten them in the past.

Who knows, maybe one of the DVD -R disk manufactorers have a grant available to help start a DVD recording business??? If you present a plan showing your sales would be near 1,000 disks per month and your going to be using thier disks, you might get 10,000 for the asking

[bottle-necked]

Good luck, you're going to need it.

[lordsmurf]

Sorry, I've got to be negative too. If you are here, that means neither you nor the teacher are qualified for any of this. How can somebody teach something they do not know? With the name "farmkid" I'll just go ahead and assume you're in rural America. I'd contact B&H for help. Maybe a lot of training for the teacher. And for the school video network, we do not know ANYWHERE near the amount that is needed (size of classrom, number of projected machines, existing equipment, etc).

For the guy that just graduated college, good luck. Just realize things are probably a lot more daunting than you've considered.

Those are both large tasks, setting up a new video network and starting a new video company (for the grad). You're going to need luck, LOTS of luck.

Good luck! 8)

And FYI, $20K is not much considering this will likely be more than one computer plus cameras and other equipment. You've got to learn where you can and cannot cut corners.

[philly33flyers]

if its in a rougher part of toen, then you should go with the cheap stuff! give me 20,000 bucks! Ill get you 6 mini DV cams, build 5 PCs from frys electronics, get freeware for the software. probably spend no more than $4,000 and pocket the rest! 20,000 dollars seems a little overkill.

and you wonder why these kids get a bad rap. it's people like you who just shoot down kids who live in a rougher town just because of that. just because they live in a rough town doesn't mean they deserve the cheap stuff. if anything they deserve the more expensive stuff to stir up some interest in what they're doing and stay away from all the bad stuff that's going on in their "rougher towns." people like you piss me off, cuz all you do is judge and assume that those types of people deserve nothing but crap. I know this is off topic but something had to be said.

[bottle-necked]

Interest comes from within, it can't be 'bestowed' on someone, it can't be bought, and one can't be made to have it.

Kids can stay away from 'the bad thing' if they want to.

People who state the truth doesn't hurt my feelings any. I'd alot rather be around someone that was completely honest, than someone that was completely dishonest.

[philly33flyers]

Interest comes from within, it can't be 'bestowed' on someone, it can't be bought, and one can't be made to have it.

Kids can stay away from 'the bad thing' if they want to.

People who state the truth doesn't hurt my feelings any. I'd alot rather be around someone that was completely honest, than someone that was completely dishonest.

One has to be exposed to what's avaliable to them to spark interest. You weren't born with the interest of video editing. You somehow, somewhere in your life you came upon a program or hobby that sparked your interest. Maybe it was in your school computer labs, maybe it was one of your teachers who you found to be real cool, or maybe it was just one of your friends who shared a similar interest. You weren't born with that interest, it doesn't come from within. You have to be exposed to it. To say that those kids already have a choice is pure crap. Why don't you try living their lives for a week and see if you'd survive. The school is doing the right thing here, they're not buying them. They're trying to provide them with QUALITY equipment instead of the same crap that's given to them for free or that's suggested by the likes of you and tandynor. To suggest that the interest is sparked from within is also pure crap. You tell me that you were born with an interest in video editing, dvd creating, or whatever you do. You weren't, somewhere along the way your interest was sparked. And that's exactly what this school is trying to do for their kids. So cut the crap, stop thinking that these kids are crap, and that you'er better than them just because of where you live or that you'er in a better off neighborhood than them. They deserve just as good as schools in well off neighborhoods, not worse.

[bottle-necked]

by the likes of you and tandynor

Looks like I've be branded a bad guy. And you too tandynor.

And for no more than what I said. What did I say?....

[sitlet]

jeez, farmkid is just asking for our help and recommendations. if he wanted to get bashed and insulted, he would have asked for it. quit whining and give the man some help

[lordsmurf]

jeez, farmkid is just asking for our help and recommendations. if he wanted to get bashed and insulted, he would have asked for it. quit whining and give the man some help

He's asking loaded questions, and this is not the place to ask. Most people here do not know what to say or are likely to give bad advice, having never setup a classroom made up like a studio with a computer network. He needs to call B&H or a professional of some kind for advice.

Somebody who uses freeware in spare time to convert videos is NOT qualified to setup a learning facility.

We're not bashing. We're giving the hard truth here. He needs to seek professional help, not ask a group of hobbyists, newbies and amateurs.

[The village idiot]

jeez, farmkid is just asking for our help and recommendations. if he wanted to get bashed and insulted, he would have asked for it. quit whining and give the man some help

He's asking loaded questions, and this is not the place to ask. Most people here do not know what to say or are likely to give bad advice, having never setup a classroom made up like a studio with a computer network. He needs to call B&H or a professional of some kind for advice.

Somebody who uses freeware in spare time to convert videos is NOT qualified to setup a learning facility.

We're not bashing. We're giving the hard truth here. He needs to seek professional help, not ask a group of hobbyists, newbies and amateurs.

And at least 2 video professionals did give advice! One said to call some vendors and have them give complete system quotes. The other simply said that this is currently over farmkid's head! Sometimes the truth hurts! Not trying to be mean, just trying to give the proper and best advice.

[overloaded_ide]

One thing would be what is the goal?

If this is a high school are they trying to set up a profesional studio so the kids can go straight to Disney after they graduate, or just learn the basics, get an interest then go to higher education on the subject??

I'd say seek profesional advice, but buy low cost good camera's! This is not going to be a profesional studio doing Two Towers!
Most likely any camera with decent quality would do well for this. It should be durable, not easily broken!
They probably won't be shooting long range cival war battle scenes or John Wayne riding over the western hills at sunset!
Maybe they will do ball games, so cameras should be good for fast motion like basketball! But again I dought they would be doing Auto racing!

If this is the "Rougher part of town" that may also mean lower income (doesn't have to, but could), if it does though then probably the kid won't have $1,000 to replace a camera if he drops it onto concrete! Or if some "rougher" kid knocks him in the head and takes it!
Keeping in mind some kids in "rougher parts of town" have died over a nice coat worth about $150 maybe less!

All kids are equal and deserve the best! Many don't get it. And you do have to look at other things also like maybe the people around them?

As for software, again I don't think the goal is to turn out Disney flicks here. They need to learn how to make Videos and DVDs, What would be better, high dollar software they can only use in class or good cheap software they could also use at home, for any of them that have computers?
Myself I would buy my kid something like Tmpgenc DVD author if she wanted it, but NO way I would buy her Adobe products! And we are not part of the rough end of town. She's 7th grade straight A's in a nice small country school, and she ain't getting Adobe!!

How long do the students have to do all this and learn everything? Not likely to be 8 hour days 5 days a week just for video class! Though it's a good idea and could boost attitudes and pride with a well done project, it could do just the oposite if they can't get it done!

And the first post says 8th grade, well that's not even high school!
How much computer training do these 8th graders have? Can an 8th grader use Adobe? If they already have that type computer skills and knowledge I don't consider this a very poor school!

I think it should follow the Kiss rule, "Keep It Simple Stupid" as a beginners course and if it works out well and enough interest then in higher grades move on to more professional stuff if possible.

And using lower cost (but good) equipment and software the students might get their own goals to work for outside of school also. If they see they can have fun with this as a good hobby also at a price they can afford that does even better than Higher dollar stuff in the classroom!
Teach the kids this takes $5,000 to get started and you shoot down thier ambitions, show what you can do with $600 and you encourage them to wash a few cars on weekends and do other stuff to earn and save a few bucks!

So really I think the advantage of low cost hardware and software far outweighs any benifit of over priced professional stuff based on stated goals.

It was actually a school safety grant. The school is in a rougher part of town, and the way he wrote the grant was that it would increase school pride. The idea is that as the students work on the video and as the other students see these videos about their school and fellow students, it will build a sense of community and increase school pride. Besides teaching a group of students (it is for his leadership class) about video production, it is supposed to improve the school environment

Not actually intended to be MGM or Warner Bros!
And it was stated to be 8th grade, not a collage course for a masters degree

If an 8th grader can produce a DVD that turns out as good as the VHS capture I did of the Herbie love bug movies and Authored with Tmpgenc DVD author they should be thrilled to death!! And all they need for that is a good camcorder, Ati AIW card, 1700xp computer, DVD burner, and Tmpgenc DVD author! And that's maybe $1,000 for the works, one complete setup including camera. Course tack on extra for M$ windows!
And if buying 21 systems they should get discounts!!! So even less!

Also if it's a DV camcorder then ATI AIW card should not be needed, firewire instead.

Yes you can blow a bundle on the best, get an AMD 64 bit CPU, but WHY??