Canopus ADVC-100 supporters - make your voice heard !!!

[spectroelectro]

LordSmurf has shown himself very knowledgeable about digital video, and he's an excellent writer. His post makes a number of good points.
Of course, LordSmurf's post does skirt the edge of trolling. However, that can be useful, since it forces folks to come up with logic and facts to defend their positions.
Here are some facts and some logic to parry a few of LordSmurf's points:

FACT: Firewire drivers are built into the operating systems of Wintel computers at a gut level. You do not have to download a driver to make use of a firewire card -- it is already built into the ROM BIOS of a typical (modern) Wintel computer, and it's included in every version of Windows from Win 2K on.
By contrast, ATI (or any other PCI video card) typically requires downloaded drivers to work. In particular, mrf's are infamous for using alpha or beta drivers in their product, and to get a typical PCI video capture card to work the way it's supposed you typically must search for an download the latest version of the driver. This can make a huge difference.
There are other issues. LordSmurf himself acknowledges that he uses only one particular version of the ATI capture software (different from teh basic capture drivers). So a person who wants to get good results form a PCI capture card must typically seek out *both* the correct version of the device driver *and* the best version of the capture software. This might not be the latest version! Sometimes, upgrades remove desirable features. Moreover, there are certain optimum combos of driver & capture software which seem to work best -- again, not necessarily the latest versions. Sometimes a new driver + older version of mfr's capture software works best, sometimes vice versa.
This demands a lot of time and specialized knowledge.

FACT: Looking at the raw capturing AVI footage from PCI video capture cards and the Canopus ADVC-100, the Canopus invariably does a superior job of producing high-quality 720 x 480 DV format video. If you extract a frame and zoom in on it, you'll typically see some artifacts with a PCI capture card -- some pixelation, some smudging, other artifacts. There are none of these in the typical enlarged DV frame of a Canopus-captured AVI. Some people are real frame nazis about Canopus, they'll only trade DVDs with people who capp'd laserdiscs (etc.) with a Canopus, not with a cap card or standalone DVD recorder. This is sort of understandable, though extreme. Canopuys-capp'd TMPGenc'd DVDs look pretty friggin' awesome if the source is really good -- say, digital stellite or laserdisc. As in, better than commercial DVD quality IMHO.
It's arguable whether this difference in quality is visible in the final MPEG-2 encoded file. I don't think it is. But this may improve the overall quality of the MPEG-2 encoded video in ways that are hard to quantify, since encoding video with less noise and less artifacts seems to go faster and produce fewer visible encoding artifacts.

LOGIC: The big advantage of the Canopus is the hardware audio/video sync. This can be nuanced with an ATI card, or with any PCI capture card. However, it requires a lot of finagling with WDM vs VFX drivers, VirtualDubSync, and so on. In some cases, you may only be able to capture with VirtualDubSync in 352 x 240. That's fine if you're capturing VHS. But I can see a visible difference twixt 352 x 240 captured AVI encoded to full DVD format and an AVI captured in full 720 x 480. The latter looks clearer and sharper.

FACT: LordSmurf has admitted he spends a lot of time capturing from VHS. For that purpose a PCI cap card seems reasonable. But those of us who cap from digital satellite or from laserdisc may notice an improvement in quality by capping with a Canopus.

FACT: LordSmurf's claim "you have no options" isn't quite accurate. A number of real-time encoders, particularly the new MainConcept (but also the open domain XVid and some others) will let you capture to a compressed format from a DV stream regardless where the DV stream comes from. Once again, as others have pointed out, the main advantage of a Canopus is high video quality and hard audio/video sync, so it's not obvious why anyone would want to capture directly to a compressed video format in real time from the DV stream output by the Canopus. Presumably the whole point of the Canopus is to create the highest possible quality DV file, and then let a good MPEG-2 encoder chew on that outside of real time to create the very best looking possible DVD.
So the putative lack of real-time MPEG-2 encoding seems unimportant for Canopus users. In any case, if you really truly need real-time MPEG-2, you can always buy an el cheapo PCI capture card and install it and get the real-time MPEG-2 encoding working. That's what I've done. I always never use real-time MPEG-2 because (as we all know) real-time MPEG-2 is inferior to a good DV file encoded by a good MPEG-2 encoder like MainConcept or TMPGenc... But it's there if you want it. Total cost in my case? $38 for the LeadTek PV-100. It's cheap, it's crap, but it works. I installed it for sh*ts 'n giggles to see what it would do. Like everyone else, I still mainly use the Canopus. but the PV-100 will do all kinds of real-time formats, including XViD and MPEG-1 and MPEG-2, if I want to do that.
So just because you buy a Canopus doesn't prevent you from also sticking in a cheap junker LeadTek or Hauppauge as an auxiliary capture device if you want to do that. You know, sort of like having a Volkswagen if your first car is a Ferrari.

[burdo]

Ive got the 1394 which for those that dont know is the same as the 100 only as a pci card, as well as the bay expansion for front connections. I have only tinkered around with home movies to dvd. They were 8mm really not that great quality to begin with but turned out nice using windv cce and tmpgenc author. Just for a test. I love the possibilities this product brings. No dropped frames or out of sync audio. I also started a post awhile back about methods of vhs/8mm to dvd using the 1394 as well as the 100. Link is here if you would like to put your setup and maybe settings for best results. Thx
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=180122&highlight=1394

[lordsmurf]

Well, not quite all that accurate.

I have used a number of ATI cards from 1997 to now, video since 2000. AIW Radeon in 2001. In that, including my own cards, I've used MMC 6.x through 8.x, as well as drivers of the time. For now, I've stopped on 8.1 and 8.6 for two systems, as it works for me. All in all, drivers and MMC in the X. level, be it 6., 7. or 8. seem to be fairly the same. Even FireWire has different drivers for different cards. There is no single "magic driver" for anything anywhere.

DV is not the god of video, in fact it's worse than uncompressed AVI. There are plenty of Canopus and Matrox articles at their sites to explain DV and other aspect of digital video.

MPEG capture being "worse" than AVI capture is subjective opinion, and of no use to this thread. It's like DVD-R vs DVD+R, or TMPGENC vs CCE, everybody just picks what they want. Your average person won't notice either way. But they do, at least, need to know what the options are. Too many newbies are told AVI->MPEG is the only way (for fear of making horrid video), when that's simply just opinion, with no truth behind it. We don't "all know" that anything is better than anything else. It's just different. AVI is a working/editing format, MPEG is a final format.

About ½ of all my captures are direct from a 352x480 or 544x480 DirecTV satellite signal. About ¼ from older 220x480 VHS(EP) and another ¼ from 400x480 S-VHS(EP) and 300x480 S-VHS-ET(SP) source. I capture/encode at whatever I feel needs to be used for any given situation. Though my guides at lordsmurf.com only show a few templates, I have many.

I have an AVerMedia EZ DVD Maker for using with PAL. The captures suck compared to my ATI setup, but my older ATI has no PAL ability (new ones do from what I hear, I may go check on a 9000 and 9700 system with friends). An ATI is hardware-assisted MPEG encoding, which does result in better quality than the pure software option.

I wouldn't call it trolling. In fact, I and quite a few others thought this a useful topic, because, as I said above, the card often gets the Crank Yankers approach: "Yay, Canopus, Yay!" and that's just not real helpful.

FACT #2 is mostly incorrect, as information to the contrary has been provided. That's part of why this thread is useful. But as you stated, the point of the device is DV, and with DV, there are no options. Using codec-based AVI and MPEG gives you options.

My current ATI AIW Radeon DDR 32MB card, the one I still use for most work, has no problems, never has. It came with my Compaq, I learned how to tweak the settings for capture, and I've been making video ever since. No troubles, no fiddling, no problems. Just video being captured, with the occasional ATI update because something better came along, as it the nature of technology. Tweaking the capture settings is no more of a hassle than me altering the controller buttons to play Street Fighter 2 on the PS1 (still my favorite game - have to have X as high punch, not R1). On both the ATI and SF2, I saved the settings long ago, and just open them when it's time to get down to work/play.

There are a lot of good capture cards out there. Canopus is fine, Happauge is fine, ATI is fine, etc. But most of them have difference uses.

Again, the point of this thread was to address questions I see and get quite often, many of them geared towards an ATI AIW vs Canopus ADVC-100 situation, so I opened up this public dialogue to air facts, maybe even a few opinions. But facts are what I was going for. (I already had the opinion matches via e-mail with people some months back, Tex and a few others.)

[FulciLives]

FACT: Looking at the raw capturing AVI footage from PCI video capture cards and the Canopus ADVC-100, the Canopus invariably does a superior job of producing high-quality 720 x 480 DV format video. If you extract a frame and zoom in on it, you'll typically see some artifacts with a PCI capture card -- some pixelation, some smudging, other artifacts. There are none of these in the typical enlarged DV frame of a Canopus-captured AVI. Some people are real frame nazis about Canopus, they'll only trade DVDs with people who capp'd laserdiscs (etc.) with a Canopus, not with a cap card or standalone DVD recorder. This is sort of understandable, though extreme. Canopuys-capp'd TMPGenc'd DVDs look pretty friggin' awesome if the source is really good -- say, digital stellite or laserdisc. As in, better than commercial DVD quality IMHO.

Apparently you didn't look at an earlier post I made in this thread that compares 2 screenshots from 2 different captures of STAR WARS (LaserDisc) with one being from a PCI capture card using HuffyUV and the other being a DV codec capture.

Anyone with half a brain would say that the DV capture is worse than the PCI HuffyUV capture.

So much for your FACT :P

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

Is it possible to perform IVTC with a CANOPUS ADVC-100 produced video file?

I've never had a DV camcorder (I do have a Hi8 camcorder) but I've always read that DV cams are pure interlaced and I always thought this was because of the DV codec but I don't know for sure.

So if you have a source that COULD have IVTC performed ... would converting it to DV destroy that option ... since DV is a purely interlaced codec?

Or am I confusing the way DV cams work with the way the DV codec works?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[trhouse]

My interest in the ADVC-100 is in its ability to maintain sync. I have some VHS tapes which were former rentals. Some have places where the tape is obviously not in good shape. Playback results in bars that move across the screen severely enough to obscure the picture. It lasts for a few seconds. Sync loss does occur with my current capture device. Just wondering if the ADVC-100 can maintain sync even under such conditions.

[lordsmurf]

My interest in the ADVC-100 is in its ability to maintain sync. I have some VHS tapes which were former rentals. Some have places where the tape is obviously not in good shape. Playback results in bars that move across the screen severely enough to obscure the picture. It lasts for a few seconds. Sync loss does occur with my current capture device. Just wondering if the ADVC-100 can maintain sync even under such conditions.

A simple TBC may help you, with no need to get another card. And a TBC has several benefits.

[trhouse]

I have heard of TBC's but I would rather not spend more on the TBC than an entire capture device like the ADVC-100 or even a standalone with those capabilites. I think you mentioned an inexpensive one once. About $40. Is that correct?

[FulciLives]

I have heard of TBC's but I would rather not spend more on the TBC than an entire capture device like the ADVC-100 or even a standalone with those capabilites. I think you mentioned an inexpensive one once. About $40. Is that correct?

I'm not TBC expert but from what I've read the cheapest TBC that actually works is the AVT-8710 Time Base Corrector which goes for $179.00 USD + S&H

The other TBC that apparently does a good job (perhaps better?) is the DataVideo TBC-1000 which goes for around $300 USD + S&H

Please note that the AVT-8710 TBC can only be purchased from AV TOOL BOX (to the best of my knowledge) but the DataVideo TBC-1000 can be found on various web sites so doing a PRICEGRABBER.COM search on it might help you save a few bucks.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

I have heard of TBC's but I would rather not spend more on the TBC than an entire capture device like the ADVC-100 or even a standalone with those capabilites. I think you mentioned an inexpensive one once. About $40. Is that correct?

The SIMA devices from Best BUy can help with dropped frames and somtimes sync.

A TBC and an ADVC-100 are worlds apart on abilities. They do different things.

[trhouse]

Lowest price I found for the TBC-1000 is $269. I will have to look into this a bit more including the SIMA products. The ADVC-100 specifications say it has "locked audio" but no description of how it accomplishes that. The AVT-8710 and TBC-1000 do describe how they function. A TBC sounds like a very useful tool.

[macoholic]

OK, it seem like there are alot of knowledgable people out there, has anybody tried this card on a Mac system? Are there any other possibilities? I would like to buy something soon to transfer hi8 and vhs to dvd mainly.

[dun4cheap]

I haven't tried it yet, but it is designed to work on both the pc and mac...

[Will Hay]

My ADVC-100 arrived Friday.
Flawless setup, and a five minute test capture produced stunning results on my standalone DVD player.
My ATI card has been great, and pending some tests/comparisons over the coming weeks I believe I've made a great move in buying this little black box.
Will

[lordsmurf]

My ADVC-100 arrived Friday. Flawless setup, and a five minute test capture produced stunning results on my standalone DVD player. My ATI card has been great, and pending some tests/comparisons over the coming weeks I believe I've made a great move in buying this little black box. Will

Nice...

Give us a fair comparison of your ATI (which one was it again?) vs the Canopus box... and please list what qualifies and quantifies your tests and what causes your judgments.

It'll be a good read.

[Will Hay]

My ADVC-100 arrived Friday. Flawless setup, and a five minute test capture produced stunning results on my standalone DVD player. My ATI card has been great, and pending some tests/comparisons over the coming weeks I believe I've made a great move in buying this little black box. Will

Nice...

Give us a fair comparison of your ATI (which one was it again?) vs the Canopus box... and please list what qualifies and quantifies your tests and what causes your judgments.

It'll be a good read.

My ATI was a budget Radeon 64mb DDR ViVo (it's in my profile) and the £35 ($50-ish) I paid twelve months ago was the best money I ever spent.
Soon as I get through the mountain of tapes I have yes, I'll do some testing and report back.
Will

[dun4cheap]

I decided to pick up the ADS Pyro AV Link, same features as the ADC 100 plus component video out. So far it works great and it only cost $110 at circuit city. It comes with Video Studio 6 or 7 depending on which box you pick up, svideo in, composite in, dv in, component video in and dv out, component video out, svideo out, composite out.. I have not seen any audio problems, it has audio lock also.

Well you guys make the decision. If you like I will post a sample...

dun4cheap

[Roy Batty]

lordsmurf et all

Forgive my drifting from the original subject...

I am considering the ADVC100 to pass footage from my digital satellite box into my PC, but I am confused over the connection possibilities. My Digibox is not one of the few that supported S-Video Out, so how would I connect the Digibox to the ADVC? I could get an RGB to S-Video converter for £50 to sit in between, other than that its just coaxial composite is it?

Apologies if I am hopelessly confusing what is a simple subject for you.

TIA

Roy

[Will Hay]

Not impressed so far with the ADVC-100.
Of the two tests I;ve done so far, teh colour representation is shite.
The reds are far, far too intense, nothing like the original footage.
If I don't find a solution I'll be going back to my ATI although don't smirk just yet smurfy, it is early days
When I get five mins I'll create a thread on the pros and cons.
Will

[FulciLives]

Not impressed so far with the ADVC-100.
Of the two tests I;ve done so far, teh colour representation is shite.
The reds are far, far too intense, nothing like the original footage.
If I don't find a solution I'll be going back to my ATI although don't smirk just yet smurfy, it is early days
When I get five mins I'll create a thread on the pros and cons.
Will

Well I'm using an AverTV Stereo PCI TV tuner card and the image is very nice but I do sometimes get audio sync problems from time to time and they seem to happen for no apparent reason.

So I too have been thinking of getting the Canopus ADVC-100 and in my research I have turned up the following:

Part of the problem with the Canopus ADVC-100 is that DV video uses 4:1:1 color whereas most of the TV tuner type capture cards (including the ATI) use 4:2:2

So there are a couple of filters out there that help to correct this problem. Here are two links:

ReInterpolate411 which is an AviSynth filter.

411Helper which is a VirtualDub filter.

Apparently these filters are considered MUST USE when converting DV AVI to MPEG-2

As for the color RED being oversaturated ... I am not sure if these filters help or not. You might have to use another filter to maybe tone down the reds a bit. Like I said I'm still researching the Canopus ADVC-100 ... I don't actually have one yet to play around with.

Will ... you are our ginnea pig

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
I have read stuff that seems to indicate that the reason the Canopus ADVC-100 "pulls in" red so much might be more of a problem with the Canopus DV codec than a full fledged DV codec problem (in other words it is an "error" with the Canopus codec but not other DV codecs). Unfortunately since the Canopus ADVC-100 is hardware based I guess there is no changing the codec installed within it.

*** EDIT ***
Some people have said that the almost identical DataVideo DAC-100 appears to have more natural color than the Canopus ADVC-100
Could it be that the DataVideo DAC-100 is "identical" but uses a different DV codec that doesn't have the "red pull" that the Canopus DV codec has? Hmmm very interesting don't you think?

[FulciLives]

In my last post I edited in the following comment:

Some people have said that the almost identical DataVideo DAC-100 appears to have more natural color than the Canopus ADVC-100
Could it be that the DataVideo DAC-100 is "identical" but uses a different DV codec that doesn't have the "red pull" that the Canopus DV codec has? Hmmm very interesting don't you think?

I started thinking about this some more and I've heard that sometimes the DV codec installed on the computer can make a difference in quality so I wonder how true that is and if someone can get slightly different results from the Canopus ADVC-100 based on the DV codec(s) they have installed on their computer?

Anyways now I'm thinking it could be that the DataVideo uses a different codec in hardware and/or it could be the few people who have used it and said it had better color were using a different (non Canopus) DV codec on their computer.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

Not impressed so far with the ADVC-100. Of the two tests I;ve done so far, teh colour representation is shite. The reds are far, far too intense, nothing like the original footage. If I don't find a solution I'll be going back to my ATI although don't smirk just yet smurfy, it is early days When I get five mins I'll create a thread on the pros and cons. Will

Nah, you get at least a month of trial and error.

The over-saturation of color is something I am aware of. Many people consider this to be "richer" color, but it's not true. It's just pumping up saturation, and red and green are often off-balance, with red over-the-top because of how video works (most commonly see the red effect on old VHS tapes in EP mode).

Good luck, play with codecs.

PM me when you get that comparison thread up, as I don't want to miss it.

[rhegedus]

Not impressed so far with the ADVC-100.
Of the two tests I;ve done so far, teh colour representation is shite.
The reds are far, far too intense, nothing like the original footage.
If I don't find a solution I'll be going back to my ATI although don't smirk just yet smurfy, it is early days

What happenned to the 'stunning results' previously?

Anyway, I don't know how you're getting intense reds or poor colour representation. Here's a screenshot of one of my captures:



Capture (of Top Gear) from an NTL cable box and encoded in TMPGEnc at VBR 7000 kbps.

[Blkout]

Color saturation is not really an issue for me anyway since I usually adjust that in TMPGEnc when encoding.

[Will Hay]

Not impressed so far with the ADVC-100.
Of the two tests I;ve done so far, teh colour representation is shite.
The reds are far, far too intense, nothing like the original footage.
If I don't find a solution I'll be going back to my ATI although don't smirk just yet smurfy, it is early days

What happenned to the 'stunning results' previously?

Nothing happened to the stunnings resulst previously.
The first test I did was B&W footage.
W.

[Will Hay]

Color saturation is not really an issue for me anyway since I usually adjust that in TMPGEnc when encoding.

Could you give me a tip as to how you do that?
Thanks
Will

[Will Hay]

Anyway, I don't know how you're getting intense reds or poor colour representation. Here's a screenshot of one of my captures:

<snip pic>

Capture (of Top Gear) from an NTL cable box and encoded in TMPGEnc at VBR 7000 kbps.

What do you use to 'capture'?
I'm using Pinnacle Studio 8.10 and use the DV Codec that seems to come up automatically.
It's late and I'm on the laptop so can't test, but there are other likely codecs I could use, right?
Will

[Will Hay]

PM me when you get that comparison thread up, as I don't want to miss it.

One thing.
I'll capture the same footage and post some screenshots, but how do I ensure I snap the same clip (like Rob has done above), thus indicating the difference?
Thanks,
Will

[rhegedus]

PowerDVD allows you to play media files and advance frame by frame after you've paused the clip at any point.

[Will Hay]

PowerDVD allows you to play media files and advance frame by frame after you've paused the clip at any point.

I have PowerDVD 4, thanks.
Will