if PAL is better, why does the PAL equipment/media suck ?

[SatStorm]

You don't know the history of Germany, right?

About 3 million Greeks went to Germany to work on factories in late 50s, mid 60s. At the time, Greeks was 8 million at best. Isolated, with political problems and not so established Balkan neighbours....
Let me also remind you, that Hellas is the only European country never paid for the war crimes in WW2 by Germany. This agreement was to solve this issues of this matter. They didn't pay us, they gave us jobs to go to germany, to rebuilt their country. Then, when all this finished, they told us to go back.
Some stay, some come back.
Just ask the typical German to talk you about Greeks...

Today, we are 14 millions in Hellas. 10 millions are Greeks and the rest 4 millions are mostly balkan foreigners.
Some facts:
The unemployed Greeks under 30 are about 60% today...
In Germany you mention 5 milion. Germans are 70 million I think.
This is Far less the 60% of the unemployed we have in Greece...

About 50% of those having jobes in Greece under 30, are working for HALF sallaries That means ~ 220 Euro...

How a served beer cost in Hellas? 4 Euros
How a served coffe cost in Hellas? 2.8 Euros
How a served Hot dog cost in Hellas? 4 Euros

How those things cost in Germany?

Also, even if the German worker (the lowest post in germany) pays 600 for taxes, is again 900 Euros from a salary about 1500 Euros
Double the Greek basic salary.

And the prices on the products (technology, gazoline, food) are the same in whole Europe.

So: We have the same prices with you, but we paid half salaries than you.

Do you see the problem here?
South Italy has more problems, portugal also...

Also, what tells you that Germans / Brits / French etc accept so easy foreigners, even inside E.U.? This is a myth. Countrie like sweden do. My young brother, was is Sweden for 2 years, 'cause he couldn't find a job here. He used to work 4 months in Sweden and return back in Greece with money enough for a year Greek Salary!
Or because you did it, went to live in Germany from some other place, it is so easy for others to do it? I mean go and live to a strange country? We Greeks happen to love our country, as I believe anyone does for his country. We don't leave to work elsewere so easy. Maybe for a while (if neccessary), but we always return!
Only 40 years ago those things happened and basic for political reasons (cold war side effects...). The same reasons the US interests lead us toa 7 year junda!

Now, let me tell you a story: My girlfriend, 26, blonde, 1.72, thin, longleg, reminds of Barbie doll, she is a very beautiful woman, with 2 public univercity diplomas, proficiency level knowledge in English, with the right to teach english to students, also knows good germans and few italians, is working in a telemarketing sevice for 200 euros per month! Imagine her in countries like Germany or USA with all those qualifications....
Don' t mention myself. If I was in a country like US, UK, Germany, etc, with all this knowledge I have on Video proccesing (don't mention my other things, you don't even know them), which would be my place? In a job working 15 hours a day for 675 euros per month? No. Probably somewhere which my qualifications counts.
Well, those choices exist only to blessed rich countries. All those things I know for Video, Satellite, Computers, Music, etc, are USELESS.
The only qualification you have, is if you have a relative to offer you a job. For pennies...

You are blessed the ones living on rich countries. We hope one day to became like you. But currently, when we saw you shouting for issues, just because things turn a bit more tuff than it used to be, sorry but we have to inform you, how WE still live... In the same fuckin E.U.

The way I see it, we are all in the same shopping mole. We are there, because we have the right to be. Others, don't even have the right to be there yet.
The problem is that you are there for shopping and we are there just not to be wet by the rain outside the mole! We may have the right to be in the mole, but we can't buy anything!

That's the true today in Europe...

[lordsmurf]

I think I've learned more about Europe in this thread than I did in all of grade school or college, in terms of current times. It requires a salary of $30,000 per year to live on your own these days in the USA, after taxes, car, apartment, insurance, and having a little to spend on yourself.

Apartments normally start at $500 per month (up to $1000 in some places) unless you want to live in a crime-ridden sespool on the shady side of town. Car payments are about $200-400 per month (used or new). Insurance for health, car, etc can cost hundreds per month. Taxes eat up about 15-30% also. Most of us carry credit card bills, often starting as far back as college that eat up a few hundred. Then what few bucks you have left can rent a few movies, maybe go out a few times, and then you're done until next month. Comfortable and barely getting by, sure... luxurious, hell no. Give me $50K or more and we'll talk luxury.

It seems the USA amounts are more, but so is the cost of living.

And my PAL is viewed on a computer, intended for capture. That's when I get all the problems of the players wanting to eat the tape instead of play it. Again, the slightest imperfection on a PAL tapes (in the 3 setups I've tried to use) all make the play go haywire.

[SatStorm]

Convertations like this one are not very often.
That has to do with the fact that most European countries have citizens that may know english, but learn to use it only for trading reasons.
In whole Europe, only Greeks, Sweedish and a bit Germans are using English for things beyond trading. Israelis follows (not a european country, but close to Europe). By the way, let me inform you that english is a big "fashion" in Russia nowdays. Unfortunatelly Russians are so poor, they don't have internet to hear (read) from them. In about 10 - 15 years, internet gonna be full of English speaking Russians! Expect this for real!

Anyway, it is rare to hear voices from "secondary countries" on english speaking forums. I mean, on International forums, you mostly found english speaking americans, brits, australians, sometimes people from South Africa, israelis.... Where are the French people in this forum? The Italians? People from BeNeLux countries? Danmark? Spain? Portugal?
Well, those people post only on their forums and they use only their language. They visit english speaking forums, only to read. Why this is happen? Because only few countries don't have the egoism to express themselfs on other languages. You see, the US domination is not a good thing for Europe and the world. Most Europeans don't like that once (the cold war years) USA use to lead our govermants on what to do. Maybe E.U. is simply this: A movement to be seperated from the USA influance and finally make a market by our own.
I don't like to tell this, but... Think this: The European Countries have so many differences between them. That explain the endless wars in Europe. But the last 50 years, we all learn to ..."dislike" USA. That was enough to unite us! Sad but true...
Today, 20 years later, the new generation (my generation), don't have this "dislike" factor for USA. In a way, we even like you: We learn that you have so many problems and we have the feeling that you won't hold a lot as you are today. You have so many internal problems, and the bad thing is that the mainstream US citizen, don't even know about it! Hey, you even have our sympathy. For you, the citizens of USA, not the goverment of USA. For once, we manage to seperate those 2 things on our minds. So we don't dislike you anymore. This is a huge step forward for us, the Europeans. So, for the first time, some of us even dare to speak with you, openly for matters you don't even know that exist. So, for the first time, you hear from us. We can have a conversation. By this underground movement, we all became better. And maybe, in 1000 years, all together we could solve the problems of humanity. It is silly, but today we are facing for real the rise of the new world. For some, this lead to a better life. For some, to a less fortune one. But overall, it is a better world for everyone. The problem is that the fortunate people, don' t like this. Where this gonna lead? We shall see.

@LordSnumf:
PCs based on VGA (and later VGA-based standards)
VGA emulates NTSC (640 x 480). It is NTSC in a way!

So: PAL can't be seen well on VGA based resolutions! Even on Full screen, it must be "scretch" to feet the screen.
Result: PAL looks bad if it is interlace on PC monitors.
Everything starts from the fact that any video technology first presented in USA and Japan, had to be adjusted for PAL users. Adjustments pays a price.

[energy80s]

Very true. PC video displays are all based on NTSC. I always set my display at 800x600 as it is the nearest to PAL broadcast TV. For NTSC you should set it at 640x480.

As this thread has moved on to salaries, I can tell you that the average salary for BBC sound / camera staff is around £25,000 a year, but with a lot of overtime this can double to over £50,000 a year. Freelance staff are paid £180 a day. As I am not highly qualified (and am not a soundman or cameraman) my salary is only a little over £14,000 a year.

[hech54]

Hey FulciLives,
How are things in The Burgh? That is where I'm originally from...I'm in Germany now. Pretty bad storms there on Tuesday huh? A friend of mine was the girl in the trailer outside Bed Bath and Beyond in Cranberry....she's still listed in critical condition. Some former co-workers of mine e-mailed me and told me the news.

hech54(formerly of West Mifflin)

[SatStorm]

Hmm... That means about 1800 Euro per month, right?

You see? This is almost a 3 months salary for me, and about 4 times the basic worker salary in Athens!
BUT: Both Britain and Greece have the same prices, because we are both E.U.

You see the problem here?

I hope to see same salaries all around Europe in my lifetime, as I saw the seme prices.

By the way, £50,000 is about 75.000 Euros: This is how a small apartment cost to buy in Greece. You have to work about 10 - 12 years for this money! And if you pay back the rental from the bank, ends up 100.000 Euros in 20 years pay back!
Which means, I have to work 20 years from today, just to get my house!
I'll be 50 by then. A fine age to start a family... (impossible before). Hope to see my kids turn 20 before I die.

[Duchess]

By the way, £50,000 is about 75.000 Euros: This is how a small apartment cost to buy in Greece. You have to work about 10 - 12 years for this money! And if you pay back the rental from the bank, ends up 100.000 Euros in 20 years pay back!
Which means, I have to work 20 years from today, just to get my house!

In the UK an apartment (we call them Flats) costs from about 180,000 Euro and in cities is usually very much more. My house cost 300,000 Euro and I have a mortgage that is costing me 900 Euro a month to pay! I don't know what taxes you pay but a bottle of Gin costs 18 euro and most of that is tax.

Yes we may get more money but our costs are very much higher even though we are in the EU. BTW if I buy something from another EU country I still have to pay import tax and local (UK) sales tax on it even if I've already paid the purchase tax in that country.

[Dragonsf]

...
Yes we may get more money but our costs are very much higher even though we are in the EU. BTW if I buy something from another EU country I still have to pay import tax and local (UK) sales tax on it even if I've already paid the purchase tax in that country.

The UK prices are really out of bounds (at least compared to prices in Germany).But I don't think, you have to pay tax(customs duty) on any EU product, you bought outside your country (that is the EU made for, isn't it).
When I order something outside Germany (but within EU), I can decide to pay the local VAT or the German VAT, but not duty or paying both.

According houses/flats costs: mots prices depend on the ground, not the building.If you live in the city, you pay around 500 Euro/m2, slightly outside around 600 and in the country 100.Flats are from 100000 Euro, house start at 200000 Euro.As interest for mortgage is quite low, you can affort such a flat for around 800Euro/month.Same price is for rental.

But one thing I can't understand:if prices for daily articles (like bread,milk, butter, water ...) are dictated by the EU (so they are the same in all countries), why aren't the salaries not the same?Someone shoulb be making big money in low salary/high price countries!

[SatStorm]

A 4 room flat in a 5 year old building, cost about 180,000 Euro in Greece...
You need of course about 1 - 1.30 hours to go to the downtown from there.
The Half money (90.000 Euros) cost a 3 room flat, on a 25 - 35 year old buildings, on neigbours full of foreigners workers.
If you search hard, you can find a 25 year old 2 room flat, with about 75.000 Euros.

A bottle of Gin here cost about the same ~20 Euros.

The prices in Europe are about the same EVERYWHERE. That's why we are the so called "eurozone". The only difference we have are taxes and salaries. In Greece, we have something like VAT, about 18% on anything.
You may have more taxes, but you have 3 - 4 times our salaries.
The products cost to all of as the same!

Just realise: 20 years ago, you could come in Greece and have cheap holliday. Today, you can not. That's why countries like Turkey have so much turism.
I remember Germans come in mid 80s, staying in Greek islands 1 - 2 months each year. Now we are expencive even for them! They go to Turkey.
You British come in Greek islands, on dedicated - for your needs - places, with fake prices only for you. If you choose alternatives, we are too expensive for you. That's why the last 10 years, turism in Spain Rised so much (Ibiza).

This is the problem, you don't realise: Because of the euro adaption, now all E.U. countries have about the same prices on products. We have differences on Taxes and services. But Taxes, are now defined by E.U. commicion: Soon or later all we gonna have to follow them. This is the next stage.
The third stage, is same salaries for everyone. We need 5 - 15 years (depending a countries economy) to see the first results on this.
Meanwhile, we have the same prices on anything, with about the same taxes but totally different salaries!

In UK, you always had one problem: The food there costed a lot, right? Well, as you probably had noticed, food now is cheaper 10 - 15 years ago. This is the positive side effect of E.U. The negatives you know them much more, 'cause you live them....

[Duchess]

The UK prices are really out of bounds (at least compared to prices in Germany).But I don't think, you have to pay tax(customs duty) on any EU product, you bought outside your country (that is the EU made for, isn't it).
When I order something outside Germany (but within EU), I can decide to pay the local VAT or the German VAT, but not duty or paying both.

Sorry to have to say it, but we do pay import duty and local taxes if we import from the EU. The only time we don't is if I am in the country concerned and buy something and then bring it back with me to the UK. If I order by mail or internet I pay duty to the government and then VAT on the combined cost and duty. And that is regardless of whether the seller has charged me local taxes or not.

The govmt in this country is a bunch of thieving blaggards who are increasing taxes hand over fist. We pay more for petrol (gasoline) than nearly every country in the world, all down to govmt taxes. Anybody out there want to pay 1.20 Euro per litre?

[Satstorm]

Hmmmm! I'm surprised that Gin is so expensive, but then it's made in the UK so I suppose it shouldn't surprise me. I know wine is cheaper in France and Germany than it is here (I checked on a particular brand last year) and the channel ferries do a roaring trade for day trippers to France so they can get cigarettes and alcohol from shops in Dieppe etc.

I think most of the price differences come down to local taxation in each country, and that's ignoring VAT (value added tax oherwise known as sales tax). There are other factors such as manufacturers selling at different prices in different countries. For instance, for decades cars have been more expensive in the UK than in other countries in the Euro Zone, and that had nothing to do with governments. Just manufacturers being greedy and selling for all the market would bear, but that's ending as people are now going abroad and buying cars and driving them back.

[Dragonsf]

Sorry to have to say it, but we do pay import duty and local taxes if we import from the EU. The only time we don't is if I am in the country concerned and buy something and then bring it back with me to the UK. If I order by mail or internet I pay duty to the government and then VAT on the combined cost and duty. And that is regardless of whether the seller has charged me local taxes or not.

This is contrary, to what I found here:

http://www.sloanefox.freeserve.co.uk/importukduty.htm
:

In order to know whether import tax is likely to be charged, you need to know which countries are currently members of the European Union (EU) - imports from EU states into the UK are not charged import duty. There are at present 15 EU member states:


Austria - Belgium - Denmark - Finland
France - Germany - Greece - Ireland
Italy - Luxembourg - Netherlands
Portugal - Spain - Sweden - United Kingdom

On the other side, British Gasoline prices were always 20% higher then here. (And a bottle of Gin goes for 12Euro here, but I don't think it's convertable currency anyway)

[Duchess]

http://www.sloanefox.freeserve.co.uk/importukduty.html :

I got a "404 Not Found" when I tried to access the site.

[Dragonsf]

http://www.sloanefox.freeserve.co.uk/importukduty.html :

I got a "404 Not Found" when I tried to access the site.

they had to sell the "l" of html.Try again, please.

[Duchess]

they had to sell the "l" of html.Try again, please.

<chuckle> And you're right, I even found it said the same at http://www.hmce.gov.uk/public/shopping/shopping.htm so I duly apologise for misleading everybody. Just wait until I get to see the guy that heads our accounts department. Grrrrrr!!!!

Hey I can buy from abroad, wonderful!!!! Now what shall I get, shoes, clothes, any suggestions?

[SatStorm]

Unfortunatelly, UK is not yet in the Eurozone. UK citizens have to pay taxes on any import as we, the E.U. members have to pay taxes from from any import from UK.
In praxis this happens, because UK doesn't have Euro!
They don't charge the products, they charge the currency!
It is a little bit complicated to explain further, but anything from UK is more expensive than from Germany for example....

On positive side effect of Euro, the Brits don't have, is that now we know exactly how something cost to another European Country.
For example, in Greece, one audio CD album cost about 27 - 35 Euros. The same audio CD cost about 16 Euros in Germany.
So what happened: We started buy from internet or we import unofficially stuff from other E.U. countries, and the local market couldn't sell. So, they drop the prices. Today, is about the same prices. For things like technology hardware, etc, the prices are about the same in whole Europe.
The differences are huge on things you can't compare:
- For example hollidays. From England, you came in Greece for 399 per person for 2 weeks. In this price, the airplane tickets are in, so the buses, etc. Well, for 2 weeks hollydays in our own country, we need about 1000 Euros per person (2 basic salaries). This price doesn't include how to go there, only food and hotels!!!
- Other example: clothes. For a good suit, we pay 400 Euros. The same cost 100 euros in Italy!
You can't see the differences on some products and you can't see the differences on salaries. You only see the differences on specific goodies, mostly technology related.
Example: The price of a CPU is the same in whole Europe.

We need about 10 - 15 years I believe at best, to turn equal. But, we are a new country (E.U.), we have the future infront of us.

Meanwhile, let's better focus on learning each other. Start talking for our traditions, our dreams, our goals in life, our wishes... What we like to do, what to hate. You know, easy stuff.
It is stupid to live together, in almost the same country (E.U.) and never heard portugals for example, not even how they sound. Or Dutch, or Greeks, or Swedish. We all know how french, germans, english, spanish, italians sound. Do you know how the finlandians sound? Have you ever hear them?
We have to start from the very low easy things, and then we can wait conclusions on bigger subjects. We need time.
And conversations like this...

I bet we all know more things about Europe from this conversation than before. That's a good positive step.
Next step: Better salaries for everyone, lower prices for our pockets! Last step: Quality and Service.

You lucky N. Americans. You have tasted all those things since the 50s....

[FulciLives]

Hey FulciLives,
How are things in The Burgh? That is where I'm originally from...I'm in Germany now. Pretty bad storms there on Tuesday huh? A friend of mine was the girl in the trailer outside Bed Bath and Beyond in Cranberry....she's still listed in critical condition. Some former co-workers of mine e-mailed me and told me the news.

hech54(formerly of West Mifflin)

Nice to hear from someone that grew up in Pittsburgh although I must say that right now I'm hating Pittsburgh with a passion.

Got laid off December 27, 2002 and was on unemployment for nearly 6 months then I got a temp-to-perm job which ended up being a temp only position that just ended last week after about 3 1/2 months.

It's only been a week now that I've been unemployed again but if I can't find a job soon I don't know how I'm going to pay the rent.

Leaving Pittsburgh is an option I like but I haven't the money to move right now and even if I do I would stay in the country as oppossed to going all the way to Germany

Anyways speaking of salary stuff I was making $10.00 an hour which gave me a net pay (after taxes) of a little over $300 per week.

On unemployment I was getting $171.00 per week (after taxes).

My last temp job was $11.25 but they decided NOT to hire me and instead hired someone off of the street since they would have had to pay the TEMP agency a large fee to hire me ... even though they apparently knew that when they first hired me (on a temp-to-perm basis).

Now I'm back on unemployment at $171.00 a week and my first 2 week check for $342.00 will come approximately 5 days before my apartment rent is due. My apartment rent is $450.00 and that doesn't inlcude gas and electric which is extra.

I sent out about 7 or 8 resumes this week and I'm registered with 3 different temp agenies and haven't heard back from anyone yet. Of course it has only been one week today that I've been unemployed.

Right after college (many years ago) I could go to a temp agency and get work the same week.

I'm not a happy camper at the moment.

So much for that 4 year college degree.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[tompika]

Never heard so much whining about Europe.

[lordsmurf]

Got laid off .........So much for that 4 year college degree.- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Good to know I'm not alone in that thought process. This market blows.

[FulciLives]

Got laid off .........So much for that 4 year college degree.- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Good to know I'm not alone in that thought process. This market blows.

No matter where you live, be in the USA or Europe or wherever ... I don't think it is asking TOO much for the following:

I GIVE: 40 hour work week at 8 hours a day for 5 days

I WANT: Enough money to pay for living costs (rent and utility expenses such as gas and electric). Decent food. A car and the expensives that go with it such as insurance and gas and oil changes etc. Health benefits/insurance.

WHAT I GET: Not enough for the above.

My mother has very little expenses and is lucky enough to make a lot of money. She basically pays for my car ... both the monthly bank charges for the luxery of owning it and my car insurance. On my own I would be very hard pressed to by for just one of those two. Probably couldn't swing it.

Anyone willing to work a standard work week of 40 hours shouldn't make so little money that they can't afford the basics in life. Yet some CEO makes 3 million a year while a Janitor makes $10 an hour. Both work the same amount of time ... just different duties. One can barely get by in life. The other is so rich he doesn't know how to spend all of his money after he retires early.

I don't want a free ride but I also don't want to work my life away so I can afford to eat whatever ******* can of tuna is on sale this week at the grocery store.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Richard_G]

Unfortunatelly, UK is not yet in the Eurozone. UK citizens have to pay taxes on any import as we, the E.U. members have to pay taxes from from any import from UK.
In praxis this happens, because UK doesn't have Euro!
They don't charge the products, they charge the currency!

ABSOLUTE CRAP!!!

UK may not be in the Eurozone, because we haven't adopted a manufactured currency and surrendered our economy to a bunch of unelected German bankers. But that doesn't affect any tax payable on imports from within the Eurozone.

I import items into the UK, some from within the EU, mostly France and Germany, and some from outside, usually China and Hong Kong.

If it is bought, local tax paid, from another country within the EU, there is no further tax to be paid. The only exception to this is for items that attract excise duty (in addition to VAT), predominately alcohol and tobacco products, in which case the items must be bought, in person and for that persons own personal use. Anything bought by another EU resident from a supplier in the UK will be paying UK taxes on that purchase and will then NOT have to pay any further taxes in their own country. Anyone in Greece, or any other EU country for that matter, buying anything from a UK supplier will NOT have to pay any additional tax, the tax will already have been paid to the supplier.

It used to be possible to buy from some wholesale outlets tax free and then declare the purchase price to your local tax office and pay the duty. However this was stopped because, for some unknown reason, people didn't bother to tell their local tax office..... This was an advantage at times when you take into account that VAT or sales tax, in UK is 17.5% but in France for example, on some items, it is 20.6%. It was therefore cheaper to pay the tax in the UK (if you bothered to tell anyone and pay it at all).

As someone else has already pointed out, if you buy anything from a country outside the EU, then you pay import duty on the purchase price of the item and then VAT on the gross cost. That is the cost of the item, the cost of the carriage and the cost of the import duty (a tax on a tax, a damn good trick when you think about it!). In reality, this means that an item I pay US$12 (£8) each for in China, have actually cost me over US$41 (£26) by the time I receive them. This would be exactly the same if the items were bought in the US or any other non-EU country.

Quote "But, we are a new country (E.U.), we have the future infront of us."

I'm afraid I can't listen to this sort of statement and not comment on it. The EU is not a country and, hopefully, never will be. It is an agreement between countries. You (SatStorm) are Greek, I am English and we will never be the same. As you said, we each have our own history, culture, background, language, etc and nothing any politician can do can change that. Any that try will fail. You only have to look at what used to be called Yugoslavia and the USSR and any other countries that have been created by combining a number of countries. The residents tolerate each other for a while and then, when they feel that their own National identity is becoming in danger of being lost, the countries separate again. I wish to remain English, I suspect you wish to remain Greek.

[lordsmurf]

I'm sure I'll never understand this: why can't Europe just unite like the USA did and enjoy broader benefits from a larger unification? The answer still appears to be that they simply don't WANT to. Call it American stupidity, if you must. But I see greater advantages at being a single Europe and not a rag-tag bunch of countries that bicker and disagree all the time (historically, at least, though I believe this still happens).

One video format would help too, not the variances.

[Richard_G]

why can't Europe just unite like the USA did and enjoy broader benefits from a larger unification? The answer still appears to be that they simply don't WANT to.

Because, unlike America, all the smaller countries HAVE their own history, language, heritage and culture. Try suggesting to a Canadian that they merge and become just another State and see what answer you get.....

[pizdets]

i have larned more about Europe in this thread then about PAL vs NTCS video... any wasy where i am now we have a lot of imigrants that were living and working in Germany moving to Canada due to the outrages prices and low wages. Hope it gets better sooner then 10 to 15

[pizdets]

why can't Europe just unite like the USA did and enjoy broader benefits from a larger unification? The answer still appears to be that they simply don't WANT to.

Because, unlike America, all the smaller countries HAVE their own history, language, heritage and culture. Try suggesting to a Canadian that they merge and become just another State and see what answer you get.....

not a good one i assure you

[FOO]

There are reasons for everything. usually
The powerline frequency is one of the main
reasons for the vertical refresh rate.
PAL should be better simply because it came after NTSC
and they fixed some of the problems

Is TGPO listening ? New poll . My power is 50 ? 60 ?

..and I'm very sorry for all you starving people but, i'm a degreed
electrical engineer and I can't get a job in the usa. My wife
still has one at Intel where half the employees are foreigners
working cheap and sending half their pay home while the (American)
management gets filthy rich.

Greed has no patriotism.

[SatStorm]

@Richard_G
Unfortunatelly, we gonna be one country.... Wanted or not, this is the plan.
There is one big difference between E.U. and Yugoslavia.
Yugoslavia was something others than the locals wanted. A fake, forced country.
USSR the same. It was simply Russia's cover domination on it's neighboors

We are E.U. because we wanted to be. Or the most of us do... We have plenty reasons for this.
Also, in the future, we gonna have same education system, same currency (most of us already do), one E.U. govermant for all (we already do have the "euroboard', but it is silent just for the people not ready to except this fact...), one market, same prices around, same products, one politic line (eventually, today we are salad on this....), one army (euroarmy), one pastport (we already have most of us...), common papers for anyone (I.D.s, car driving ID, etc) and many other things.
All those are made us one country, with local authority and judgment system. Something like the US....
Study U.S.A. and the history of this amazing (and complicated...) country and you gonna see exactly the same things in the formation of E.U. The only difference is that E.U. do the same things hundred of years later and knows from USA how to be done properly...

Like PAL. It is better because NTSC already was used, so the Germans knew how to make it better not in theory (NTSC is pretty good in theory) but in praxis...


Other example of a "E.U." type country existed in Europe before and succeeded? Germany. It is a union you know, not a "country" like you or we are. In the begining (120 years or more ago), North Germans from Alpin Germans use to say the same. We'll never gonna be the sama. Ask them now...
This model now we following in E.U. Eventually, in about 100 years (3 generations) we gonna be more alike than ever. If there is gonna be a seperations, would be something like the North and South, exactly how USA is and feel today. North States and South States. Same but different.
Same story here in E.U.

I never understood why you Brits ever join E.U. You don't even like it. Joining USA would be something you would love far much. Why you don't move that way? After all, you have nothing to get from E.U. You don't even feel "European"...

And, I repait: You pay more if you buy from amazon.co.uk than amazon.de Secondary things like this "royal post" you have, boost the cost. Taxes on services, deliveries, you know, secondary stuff. In practice, we don't buy any more from U.K. is expensive!
There are not only the taxes we see, there are also many hidden taxes we don't know about them. U.K. has plenty of them....

[Dragonsf]

I myself buy a lot of DVDs and books in UK.The prices are the half of the same here in Germany (at least DVDs).Most suppliers don't ask for postage.
And if you buy goods from outside EU (like HK DVDs):if you stay under the limit of 50Euro:no duty/no tax.BTW:in Germany any duty (beside Alcohoil/tobaco or such) iwas replaced by VAT.

[SatStorm]

We don't buy the same things then....
Or you buy things made in UK, which is natural to be more expensive in Germany or elsewhere...

Anyway, this is not the point of this conversation. I think it turned way out!

There are 3 groups in Europe about "europe". The ones who are positive, the ones who are negative and the ones who don't care.

The ones who don't care are the most of all, but they follow the positive party, basicly. The Nagitive party are more people than the postive party.
But, because of the "we don't care" party, there sound like a bad tape.
This is called "eurosceptism".
I - obvious - belong to the positive Europarty. I believe in a E.U. which eventually may makes us less Greeks, Brits, Germans, French, Italians, etc, but gonna make us more "Europeans". This "European" gonna have something like what the Swiss have a century now: They are Germans, Italians and French, but the same time they are Swiss and feel Swiss. They do have their own language and local traditions, but also have pan-swiss traditions and the feeling that there are swiss, beyond their language.
Others, believe that one Europe, means to loose their traditions, their language etc.... I don't think so...
In the UK for example, the welles have their own language and traditions, but also are British, right? And U.K means United Kingdom I think. So, it means that once (700 years ago?) there where there many Kingdoms and later someone unite them in one big one.
So Europe today.

In 100 years, all those gonna be history. We gonna be Europeans.
And, about the same time, new unifications gonna rise in the world. I believe the Arabs gonna be next (they do speak the same language, have the same religion, have many same traditions and feel "arabians" with the exception of Egypt and part Syria).

I don't believe that most of us are ready to speak so deap on those matters, because we don't know well each other. And that lead to dead end.
Our "mission" is to accept the fact of the unification. Our children mission, gonna be to learn each other. And our Grandchildren mission, gonna be to start develope a new colture, the paneuropean one...
Just like the N. Americans did...

[Dragonsf]

I think, the "Arabs" are not a good example, because they look only united, because they stand against the "rest of the world" (i.e the fanatics).In Islam there are as many sects as there are in the christian world and they even hate each other then catholics and protestants (see North Ireland).Amd most of the conquered countries (like Iran) don't even like Arabic.
As long as there is fanatism (in all Religion) as long there will no peace and unification.

[Richard_G]

@Richard_G
Unfortunatelly, we gonna be one country.... Wanted or not, this is the plan.
There is one big difference between E.U. and Yugoslavia.
Yugoslavia was something others than the locals wanted. A fake, forced country.
USSR the same. It was simply Russia's cover domination on it's neighboors

We are E.U. because we wanted to be. Or the most of us do... We have plenty reasons for this.

I think this thread is getting dangerously close to political and might be locked soon, but I'll continue. SatStorm, I suspect you are quite young, whereas I am in my late forties. This may explain the differences in understanding of the matter. There was never any intention of UK joining the EU as it has become. UK joined the European Common Market that was set up under the Maastrict Treaty, this has then taken over and become this uncontrollable monster that wishes to run our lives. I have a copy of the full text of this treaty if you would like to see it. It is purely a Treaty to set up a common trading system to allow the freedom of movement of goods without import taxes and barriers. It also places conditions on the banking system to prevent barriers to monetary transfer. It is only subsequent legislation that has been bought in by unelected officials of the EU that have given it the powers that it now has. Most of these have had to be voted on but the poorer countries see it as a benefit to themselves so will vote for it, the French don't like to argue so they vote for it and then don't bother to impliment it (as very few European laws are laws but directives and not mandatory. For instance, a country can be taken to the European courts, found guilty of an offence and issued with a fine. If they then choose to ignore the findings of the court they can, and in the case of the French, usually do!). This only leaves a small number of countries that try to vote against anything but are outnumbered in the end. Before anyone accuses me of having it in for the French, nothing could be further from the truth. I like the French a lot, any country that sticks two fingers up to Brussels gets my vote, if only our own Government had the balls to do it!

Yugoslavia was a fake forced country. What do you expect a country of Europe to be? You have already said that you have no desire to leave your country and wish to remain Greek. What will you do if your country ceases to exist? You will still be Greek, still feel Greek but not have a country to call your own. There is then only two options. Bow down and accept that your history, heritage, traditions, language, customs disappear from the face of the earth, or fight to keep them. Considering the Greek race has been around since before the Roman Empire and did so much to shape civilisation as we know it today, I suspect that while you personally may think this a great idea many of your countrymen will not.