Need advice on computer problem...

[pixel]

One last thing to try is unplugging drives and removing all pci/isa cards and the agp card, then putting them all back in.

People have already suggested reseating everything, but that didn't work for me. What I am suggesting is removing everything (power leads from everything including mobo etc. and taking out all cards all at once), leaving it sitting for a couple of minutes, plug it all back in and it may just work.

This has happened to me twice on two different PC's and it solved my problem.

Of course, with it being quite old it may be a dead motherboard on all accounts, but I have a P3 system and it is still running fine.

[j1d10t]

It might a simple thing like the fans malifunctioning. If they don't draw the right current it will shut down the board as a safety feature. If you want a new comptuer I'll build you one for nothing other than the parts and shipping, and maybe a 6 pack. You could have a kickass computer for around $500. PM me if your interested, if you now how to build one yourself I'll send you the sites you need to buy from.

Thanks for the offer, but I like learning about this stuff, and would like to give it a shot myself.

Thanks again

[j1d10t]

One last thing to try is unplugging drives and removing all pci/isa cards and the agp card, then putting them all back in.

People have already suggested reseating everything, but that didn't work for me. What I am suggesting is removing everything (power leads from everything including mobo etc. and taking out all cards all at once), leaving it sitting for a couple of minutes, plug it all back in and it may just work.

This has happened to me twice on two different PC's and it solved my problem.

Of course, with it being quite old it may be a dead motherboard on all accounts, but I have a P3 system and it is still running fine.

So unplug everything plug it all back in and try starting up? Or unplug everything, try starting up, then put everything back?

Thanks

[j1d10t]

I'm still looking at sales, and trying to decide how far I want to for an upgrade - if I want to just upgrade a little, with something like the links The village idiot provided, or go even farther, and spend a couple hundred. I'm trying to gage how long my son will need to use it (before he gets this machine, and I buy a new), and what all he'll be doing on it during that time.

Thanks

[The village idiot]

Well, that changes things

What if you bought a new machine for your use, and then your son uses the one you have now? Sounds like a deal that will make both of you happy.

[j1d10t]

Well, I'm not quite ready to give up my machine, since it's a P4 3.02ghz, 1GB RAM, and 200GB HD But I know in about 3-4 years this will be considered a dinosaur, and I'll need to upgrade, and I'll give him this. But I'm trying to decide how much I want to spend on fixing his machine. If I just want to fix it (and no doubt upgrade a little, to something like an 800mhz processor), or spend a more, fix it and upgrade to something like a 2ghz. He's only 6 now, and I'm trying to decide what he'll be using it for in the next 3-4 years, and when I figure that out, that will help me figure out how much I want to spend on it.

I'd like not to spend too much on it, but the question is how much is too much, and what is worth investing in it? Because if he keeps it another 3-4 years, it will be considered a dinosaur (even if I upgrade to something like a 2ghz), and then will I have spent more money than I needed to, and just end up chucking the old system? What will be sufficient, without overkill?

Decisions, decisions...

[pixel]

j1d10t, you unplug everything (I mean everything; hard drives, RAM, pci cards etc, although I didn't need to remove the processor) and then plug them all back and try starting up.

It may be a last ditch attempt but its better than nothing, and as I have said, it saved me twice because I had the same symptoms as you (but that happened because I had been fiddling around inside, it didn't just happen for no reason). I think it seems to completely refresh everything in the CMOS or something.

[pixel]

If you can't decide on what to do to upgrade (if my suggestion doesn't work), maybe look at what he's doing with the PC just now. If it is just playing games and whatnot, you could probably pick up an upgrade bundle for about £130/$150 that will be about 2 GHz. You could get a Celeron or Duron, or Athlon, or even P4 kit. It's only a kids PC, so a Celeron or Duron would do fine.

Maybe something like this: http://komplett.co.uk/k/ki.asp?action=info&sku=112188&p=&t=1397&l=2&AvdID=1&CatID=44&GrpID=1&cks=PRL

And when you feel it's time for an upgrade, you can use that PC for video capturing or whatever else you choose. (I use my P3 system for capturing because I find I always need onto this PC right in the middle of a capture, then I just transfer the video to this PC and encode.)

[gmatov]

Josh,

Try unplugging everything but the RAM and processor, and video card. Pull off both the power connectors and the data cables from all drives including the floppy and CDs.

If you have a case fan unplug it also. I hesitate to say you should also unplug the CPU fan, although that older Intel CPU should not overheat.

Try spinning the fan in the power supply itself. Spin the CPU fan as well.

Leave everything unconnected. Try to start it. You should go to boot screen.
If you didn't disconnect the CPU fan, does it try to rock?

Flip the power switch on the back of the power supply off, then back on. Find the little connector on one corner of the board that is marked "reset", pull it off, then take a small screwdriver and short those 2 pins.

This is 5 or 12 volts, you are not going to see a fireball, there's nowhere inside that box where you can get shocked except in the PS itself, and then only 110 volts at a couple points.

One post above had the right idea. If a fan freezes up, it will go into a "locked rotor" kind of phase, overdrawing because it is not turning That will tell the PSU to shut off.

The shorting of the reset pins is to "train" the PSU.

When you said earlier that when you pulled the PSU connector from the board and the drives started spinning, it indicated that something was not right with something that is connected to the board. Something is drawing too much current and the PSU, which has some intelligence circuitry built in, told itself so and shut down.

This comes from the Mother Board TO the "Power Good" pin, the motherboard and other power draws are in the acceptable range, so the PSU will stay powered up. Something is shorting out, which is what a locked up, but not burnt out, or open circuited, fan would be equivalent to.

I'd try that before I bought another MB/CPU.

Hope this helps. Don't forget to put the reset connector back on.

Cheers,

George

[Solarjetman]

Well, I'm not quite ready to give up my machine, since it's a P4 3.02ghz, 1GB RAM, and 200GB HD

I HAVE THE SOLUTION!!!!

What we need to do is trade your computer for mine. Then, you would be willing to give your newly aquired PC to your son and buy a better one!

Everyone wins!

[gmatov]

One thing I forgort to say is if it doesn't start with the vid card in it, pull that also It could be the culprit. If it works without the card, it shouldd work with a new card. It WILL go to POST without a Vid card, you just won't be able to see it.

Reconnect 1 piece at a time, and reboot after each part is connected.

[j1d10t]

Josh,

Try unplugging everything but the RAM and processor, and video card. Pull off both the power connectors and the data cables from all drives including the floppy and CDs.

If you have a case fan unplug it also. I hesitate to say you should also unplug the CPU fan, although that older Intel CPU should not overheat.

Try spinning the fan in the power supply itself. Spin the CPU fan as well.

Leave everything unconnected. Try to start it. You should go to boot screen.
If you didn't disconnect the CPU fan, does it try to rock?

Flip the power switch on the back of the power supply off, then back on. Find the little connector on one corner of the board that is marked "reset", pull it off, then take a small screwdriver and short those 2 pins.

This is 5 or 12 volts, you are not going to see a fireball, there's nowhere inside that box where you can get shocked except in the PS itself, and then only 110 volts at a couple points.

One post above had the right idea. If a fan freezes up, it will go into a "locked rotor" kind of phase, overdrawing because it is not turning That will tell the PSU to shut off.

The shorting of the reset pins is to "train" the PSU.

When you said earlier that when you pulled the PSU connector from the board and the drives started spinning, it indicated that something was not right with something that is connected to the board. Something is drawing too much current and the PSU, which has some intelligence circuitry built in, told itself so and shut down.

This comes from the Mother Board TO the "Power Good" pin, the motherboard and other power draws are in the acceptable range, so the PSU will stay powered up. Something is shorting out, which is what a locked up, but not burnt out, or open circuited, fan would be equivalent to.

I'd try that before I bought another MB/CPU.

Hope this helps. Don't forget to put the reset connector back on.

Cheers,

George

Cool. I'll give that a try. When I try to power on now, the processor fan does spin, but only for a split second, then stops when everything else stops. I'll give that a try and let you know what happens.

Thanks

[j1d10t]

One thing I forgort to say is if it doesn't start with the vid card in it, pull that also It could be the culprit. If it works without the card, it shouldd work with a new card. It WILL go to POST without a Vid card, you just won't be able to see it.

Reconnect 1 piece at a time, and reboot after each part is connected.

A video card could be the problem? I know they can cause problems (I've experienced some of those), but it can cause the whole thing to not boot up? Wow. OK. I'll try that when I try your other suggestion.

Thanks again

[j1d10t]

Well, I'm not quite ready to give up my machine, since it's a P4 3.02ghz, 1GB RAM, and 200GB HD

I HAVE THE SOLUTION!!!!

What we need to do is trade your computer for mine. Then, you would be willing to give your newly aquired PC to your son and buy a better one!

Everyone wins!

[j1d10t]

OK. I pulled out everything, but the video card, RAM, and processor fan, unhooked all the drives, tried to start, got the same reaction - tried to start for half a second, then stopped. I then pulled the video card, same thing. I then unhooked the processor fan, and got the same reaction - I could hear the processor (for lack of a better term) "processing", then silence. I put the video card back in, same thing.

The reset connector, is that on the MB? Because I looked all over and couldn't find anything that said reset.

Thanks

[j1d10t]

Well, Fry's had a sale today on a MB & CPU combo, so I went out and bought a Celeron 2.4ghz CPU with MB, 256MB RAM, and a new CPU fan. It was only $150, so I figured that wasn't so bad. Now I get the joy of putting it all together, and installing it

Wish me luck

[j1d10t]

Ok, I've got another question I was reading the book that came with the MB, and when it's talking about installing the CPU it says to apply thermal grease to the top of the CPU before installing the fan. What is thermal grease? Is this something I need to make another trip to the computer store for? Probably sounds like a stupid question, but I hope not

Thanks

[redwudz]

Check your CPU fan first. Many have a piece of thermal tape that substitutes for the thermal paste. If not, yes you will definatelly need the paste. You only need a tiny amount, equivalent to a few thousands of an inch thickness. I would recommend attaching the CPU and the heatsink before installing the board. I set it on a padded surface and carefully stretch the heatsink bracket into place. Everything else is mostly plug and play. Good luck.

[j1d10t]

The fan has a small gray square (the size of the CPU) on the bottom of it - it almost looks like gray electricians tape, kind of rubbery/plasticy looking. Would that be it?

Thanks for the fast reply

[redwudz]

Yes, that's the thermal tape. It usually has a clear cover strip, but may not, depending on the packaging. Read the heatsink directions carefully. The heatsinks on newer processors take a fair amount of force to seat properly.

[j1d10t]

Cool. The top and bottom of the fan had clear plastic covers over the them, if that means anything. And it doesn't look like there is clear tape in the bottom of the fan. I am definitely reading the directions carefully - I don't want to mess this up

Thank you for the help

[gmatov]

Josh,

The reset is among the connector pins in a little cluster on one corner of your board, usually bottom right on a tower, desktop should be left front.

4 or five pairs of thin wires plugged onto a pair of pins each. One will be marked reset, one HDD, one Power, or PS, or something..

Actually, I don't know why just pushing the reset button doesn't do the same thing, and maybe it does, but since not all cases have a reset button, Compaq comes to mind, maybe the PS instructions prefer to tell you to short the pins instead.

If you bought a new CPU cooler, you can use the tape that came on it, thermal transfer interface or whatever they call it, or remove it completely and use a thermal paste, but as a tube of Arctic Silver goes about 8 bucks, and is good for maybe a hundred CPU installs, you might not want to buy it.

You might have gotten a small plastic squeeze bag of paste with the cooler. Just use it sparingly. I spread a little around then twist the heatsink a few times to spread it very thinly. If it is too thick, it becomes a heat insulator instead.

I looked at the link above and the pic was not at all helpful, so far as pinouts go. If you have a book, with a schematic/diagram, it should show you the reset pins.

Cheers,

George

[j1d10t]

George,
I found the reset pins earlier - I unhooked the reset button from it, and tried touching them together with a little screwdriver I had. It still wouldn't start.

I just got the new MB and CPU installed, and am going to give it a test run. I'm pretty sure I got everything all hooked up correctly, and set the jumpers to the correct position - I set them to the "auto" and "normal" settings. It was actually kind of fun to replace the MB and CPU

Thanks for the help

[j1d10t]

OK. I was getting excited, and having fun, but I think I might have jinxed myself by feeling too proud about accomplishment ( ), because I've still got a problem. I hooked up everything exactly as the book for the MB said, following the book exactly, step-by-step. Now nothing happens when I try to turn it on - no flashing lights, no noise, no humming, nothing. I've triple checked every connection, quadruple checked the PS to make sure it works... This may be a dumb question (especially since I went out and invested in a new MB/CPU), but could it be my power button? It used to have some problems sticking - sometimes it would stick in the "on" position, and I'd have to push it pretty hard and wiggle to get it to pop back out and turn off. And sometimes I'd barely have to touch it, and it would turn on. Any advice? Is there any way I can check to see if it is my power switch?

Thanks for the help

[gmatov]

Josh,

If you have installed this new MoBo and CPU, then you have also connected the reset, speaker, HDD, Power wires, no?

So now you know where they are. Pull the Power connector off, not the 20 pin Main Power, but the little connector. Short them momentarily.

You did make sure the on-off switch on the back of the PSU was in the on position, no? An ATX PSU has to be trained and turning the machine on with the switch in the OFF position can/may cause it to need the same, i.e., trained, which is what shorting the Reset pins does.

I assume you did not connect more than the RAM, Vid Card, Heat Sink Fan.

It's all you need to get to a boot screen, which will tell you you have a Hard Drive failure, after which you can shut down and connect 1 unit at a time. When you get to one that prevents boot, disconnect, try again. If it boots, that is the culprit.

I feel for you, pal, you been hearing "Get another MoBo, it's shot." You get another, it doesn't work either. You recall the saying about a "grain of salt"? Start taking your advice with some. Some of the guys here are knowledgeable, others should stick to Vid Converts. Regardless, all you can get online is guesses, even from a tech.

Cheers,

George

Check your PMs

[j1d10t]

OK. I've installed a new PS, and it still wont start. I followed the directions in the MB book exactly. I tried starting it with just the MB, RAM, but the CPU fan doesn't even spin. I can't figure out why the CPU fan won't spin - what could I have done wrong to make the CPU fan not even work? I plugged it in to the pins that the MB manual said... The MB manual says that if you have the system fully loaded they recommend using a 300W PS, and I've got a 250W PS (which on the box says it will support P4, AMD, and Athlon processors, so it should be enough for a Celeron processor, right?), and so far just the MB plugged in to it. Any thoughts as to what I could be doing wrong? Even if I the processor wasn't seated properly (which I'm sure it is seated properly), the fan would still spin, correct?

Thanks for the advice

[j1d10t]

Success!!! I got it to work! I reset the jumpers - set them to different positions, then back, and now it starts. Now I've just got a problem with Windows 98. While trying to start Windows it stops and pulls up an error message that says:
"While initializing device NDIS:
Windows protection error. You need to restart your computer."

When I restart it does the same thing. I can get into Safe Mode, but what the heck does the error message mean? Any help would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

[gmatov]

Josh,

Since you have a new board, I would advise you to go to safe mode, bring up Control Panel>System>Device Manager, and see what hardware is now installed.

You may find that there is a hell of a lot of stuff you don't have, as well as multiples of what you do have.

Highlight those devices and click "Remove". While you are there, I also advise you to go to the "Performance" tab, click on the dropdown arrow, and select "Network Server". It is supposed to be higher performance than "Desktop Computer".

You really should re-install Win98 now, as, so far as your Windows system is concerned, you have a new computer, new IDE drivers required, Video, whatever, and everything needs to be registered into the new setup.

What jumpers did you install-reinstall to get it to work? The only ones on most new boards are the clear CMOS, and on some, 100-133 buss speed.

Happy it's working, regardless.

Cheers,

George

[j1d10t]

I reset the CMOS jumper. So I set it to clear, tried to start, then set it back, and it started up. I have no idea why, but I'm happy it worked

So just reinstall Windows? Should I just reinstall, or reformat and reinstall?

I've found I can get it to start Window (kind of) if I do a manual confirmation of everything when it starts, and then tell it not to load something called NDIS.vxd, but then it starts and goes to the new hardware wizard, detecting all sorts of things, like PCI bridge, and stuff like that, and then it can't find the correct drivers on my HD, and it's not recognizing either of my CD/DVD drives. If you think reinstalling will take care of it, let me know and I'll do that tonight

Thank you so for all the help

[gmatov]

Josh,

NDIS is Netware Directory Information Services. That indicates your net card needs re-installed. I doubt you are using Netware.

As far as all the other things it is trying to install, they must be driven by the drivers from the disk that SHOULD have come with your new board. You should have a CD for that board. Do you?

If it will boot to Win, either in normal or safe mode, scratch that, in Safe Mode, you won't see your CD drive.

If you try to reboot, and find that it is finding new hardware, continue and try to point it to the CD that came with the board. If there is a "Browse" button available, use it, point to the CD and narrow it down to IDE for PCI drivers, etc. If you don't have a Browse button, and sometimes you don't, type in the location of the CD, in your case, probably D:\, if you have partitions, e, f, maybe g..

If you get it to the point that it will boot to Win, you should go to the Control Panel, System, andd update drivers for each thing that you have just installed, meaning the MoBo drivers, IDE, posibly Video, if it is integrated, Audio, the same, Net card, regardless if it is integrated or not.

Anything that it finds to install should be on your install CD.

If you didn't get one, on the boot screen of the boy's machine, as soon as you boot, you will find a line of characters, maybe 20, which are the descriptor of your board. As per the above, try motherboards.com, hunt that number, download allthe drivers for that particular board. You should ddo this even if you have a CD, as new drivers will have been written since the board was shipped with the CD you may have. This is a given.

let me know how you made out.

Cheers,

George