Digital Camcorder or ADVC-100

[Hatz]

Hey everyone......I am in the market to get a new capture device. I am selling my Dazzle DVCII (don't make fun of me) and just had a few questions.

Is there any difference in quality sending an analog tape through A sony D8 camcorder to the PC versus sending it through the Canopus ADVC-100. I like the idea of having a digital camera as well as a tranfer device.

What would you guys recommend?? Also are Sony D8 worth it??

On a side note......lets say I author a dvd that has part analog tape capture and part digital tape capture...would this screw anything up or just look kinda funny cause of the quality difference.

Thanks for the help.

Hatz

[Hazza]

Has been discussed here.

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=175815&highlight=advc+camcorder

And you can use both analogue captured and digital footage together. Usually they blend in pretty well considering.

Hazza.

[Will Hay]

Hey everyone......I am in the market to get a new capture device. I am selling my Dazzle DVCII (don't make fun of me) and just had a few questions.

Is there any difference in quality sending an analog tape through A sony D8 camcorder to the PC versus sending it through the Canopus ADVC-100. I like the idea of having a digital camera as well as a tranfer device.

What would you guys recommend?? Also are Sony D8 worth it??

On a side note......lets say I author a dvd that has part analog tape capture and part digital tape capture...would this screw anything up or just look kinda funny cause of the quality difference.

Thanks for the help.

Hatz

I've just asked a similar question and the 'ADVC vs Camcorder passthough debate' came up in my thread too.
Check it out by clicking here.
Good luck with your choice
Will

[Hatz]

Thanks you two. Very informative. I'm still torn though.......heheh. Man if only everything was so cheap.

Hatz

[Will Hay]

Thanks you two. Very informative.

If it was me in your dilema, and I guess you can't afford both, right?....
....I'd definetely go the camcorder route.
Do you have a camcorder now?
I had an analogue VHS-C and the quality benefit in my Sony MiniDV was immense.
Any reason why you're looking at Hi8 as opposed to MiniDV?
The only reason I say go with a camcorder is if you have either a crap one or none at all.
If you have a camcorder and you're happy with the quality then definately go with the ADVC-50 or 100.
Just take not of the thread I participated in and think about the wear/strain you'll put on your new camcorder.
How much transfer are you intending?
I have loads, so the ADVC for me (I've now decided) is the best route.

I'm still torn though.......heheh. Man if only everything was so cheap.

Be glad you're not in the UK and paying the kind of prices we are
Will

[Hatz]

Thanks again Will.

Well here is my situation. I have no camcorder at all. I would like one because this christmas my buddies and I are going to do a lot of filming and I would like that quality to look better then analog. However, my buddies and I are in the middle of a movie project together and the first part of it is in analog. So I will need a way of transfering the existing analog to the computer............and I don't like the Dazzle DVCII. I thought it was good at first but then I realized the quality just isnt there.

Now, I don't know how much is a lot of footage to backup. My buddies and I have made movies over the years and my best guess would be that I have at the most 6-7 hours......at the most.

Also, Hi8 isn't digital is it? When you say MiniDV........is that like the Sony Digital 8 format? Is there MiniDV camcorders that will transfer analog also?

So given that information, now what would you choose?

Thanks for the help and I look forward to your answers.

Hatz

[Hatz]

OK update........I see that Digital8 isn't the same thing as miniDV.

I take it miniDV is better?? Why is this.......better quality?

Also another thing......how is the audio pickup on these cameras? I would like a camera that can pick up someone talking from 10 feet away without them having to yell.

Thanks again for the response.

Hatz

[Will Hay]

From a personal point of view the choice is simple...
.....camcorder with passthrough.
I'm no expert, I know very little about camcorders but:
1) I went for MiniDV over Digital8 simply because its the latest technology and better quality.
I can't imagine there's much in it to be honest.
Plus, for the price difference was worth it but for you it all depends on your financies.
2) I didn't get passthrough because I wanted my £415 investment to be a camcorder, I was concious of putting too much wear and tear on it but if I only had ten/twenty hours to do I would have bought the passthrough version.
3) I have no idea whether Digital8 is transferred via firewire but at the very least this should be your choice, its an absolute doddle to use and I wouldn't be without it now.
I have no idea on the 'audio range', but I don't have any problems.
The only critism I have of my camcorder is it seems to pick up a lot of wind noise.
I have a young family, that's why I upgraded to MiniDV and it's already paid for itself, ten times over in fact, you can't get these memories back and you want them the best quality they can be.
Like I say, knowing you want camcorder and can't afford both (inc. a ADVC-100) then you've answered your own question
Will

One tip, make sure the camcorder has the adapter to accept composite/anaolgue imputs. I was given this tip when I asked a similar question - apparently they're expensive to pick up.
Other than the ADVC-100 (or similar) there is no better way to transfer analogue footage to the PC, not for regular guys like you and me.
Good luck, and post back with what you decide/buy
Will

[Hatz]

Well I think I am going to go with a MiniDv. I looked at the Sony site just for a reference and I see they have analog to digital pass through......so I assume this means it accepts analog tapes and can transfer them to pc converting them to digital format.

Now here is the next question..........Since you have had experience in buying these, is there any you would reccommend? What are the better brands. I don't want something that will break down as soon as I pull it out of the box. Does the one you have the analog composite adapter? Does this mean you could run a VCR to the camcorder and then send that signal to the PC?

Thanks for the great help again Will.

Hatz

[Will Hay]

Well I think I am going to go with a MiniDv.

Good choice.

I looked at the Sony site just for a reference and I see they have analog to digital pass through......so I assume this means it accepts analog tapes and can transfer them to pc converting them to digital format.

Yes, but if you want to transfer Hi8 or VHS-C then obviously you will need a camcorder (or VHS adapter) to play them.

Now here is the next question..........Since you have had experience in buying these, is there any you would reccommend? What are the better brands. I don't want something that will break down as soon as I pull it out of the box.

I doublt anything you buy will break down as soon as you pull it out of the box
I hear JVC are great for camcorders.

Does the one you have the analog composite adapter?

No, as I say I didn't buy one with passthrough.The manufacturers websites will tell you whats included in the box.

Does this mean you could run a VCR to the camcorder and then send that signal to the PC?

Yes, you run the three (yellow, red and white) composites to the camcorder (via an adapter I imagine) and then via the camcorder to the PC using firewire (you will need a firewire card) and capture using a software package of your choice (I guess you will need to but this too).
Suggest you do a search on here for camcorder recommendations, there's loads.
I went with Sony and my only critism is the level of wind noise it picks up (on a windy day, obviously).
Will

[The village idiot]

Even if it doesn't have pass through, you might be able to do the analog tapes. Just make sure you get one that can record from an analog source, then just get a DV tape and record the analog video. Then you can use the camera to transfer the DV from the camera to the computer. It would suck for TV captures, but for home movies where the tapes are short or have breaks, it would work fine. It just takes twice the time to get it into the computer.

There are also some important things about the DV tapes! When you start using a brand of tape, do not use any other brand. The miniDV tapes have a lubricating layer applied to the tape, this rubs off onto the heads. Not all companies use the same lubricant, and sometime the different types mix and form a goo. This clogs the heads beyond what a head cleaning tape can remove. So choose your tape wisely. more cna be found at :

http://www.adamwilt.com/Tidbits.html#DVgunking

[Richard_G]

Well I think I am going to go with a MiniDv. I looked at the Sony site just for a reference and I see they have analog to digital pass through......so I assume this means it accepts analog tapes and can transfer them to pc converting them to digital format.

Hold on a minute, let me throw my bit in and explain. Sony Digital 8 records in DV format onto a tape that is physically identical to the original analogue Video 8 and the later analogue Hi-8 tapes. MiniDV records in DV format to a much smaller tape that is unique to MiniDV. As you are recording a data stream in DV format, it is only the storage medium that is different (think of it the same as storing data files on floppy disk, CD or DVD, the files don't alter only the storage medium). There is nothing to choose between D8 and MiniDV in terms of quality, the resulting files are identical datastreams.

There are advantages to both. Because the tapes themselves are physically smaller, MiniDV camcorders are smaller. Although I personally consider this a disadvantage because you can't hold the damn things steady enough! Digital 8 has the advantage that it is backwards compatible in as much as it will also play back Video 8 and Hi-8 analogue tapes and output them as Firewire (or i-Link as Sony insist on calling it). If you have tapes shot on an older analogue camcorder, you just put the tape in and play it, the camcorder does the analogue to digital conversion. Assuming you get one with Analogue in (which only the high end ones do in Europe but that's another story), you will be able to connect an analogue source (your VHS-C camcorder for instance) and either re-record the footage to D8 tape or simply use the camcorder as a passthrough device.

As for quality and reliability, I wouldn't touch anything not made by Sony but that is purely personal preference. Reliability is up there with the best of them (which is why you rarely see a pro user with anything other than a Sony). Quality is not going to be affected by the tape medium but things like the sensor chip, lens quality, colour balance handling, etc. I've found that Sony gives the most natural colour rendition under the majority of lighting conditions.

At the end of the day, you get what you pay for. The more money you spend, the better the results. No matter what format you go for.

[Hatz]

Wow thanks you two. Thanks for the heads up on the lubrication also. I would have never known about that. Also thanks on the two formats you have described Richard. Looks like I have some more homework to do.

Let me ask you guys this question now. I know this is probably a no brainer but which of these two cameras would be a better deal. Assume you can get the second for 800 on ebay which would be used but probably by someone who knows what he was doing and took care of it.

http://www.amphotoworld.com/product.asp?id=pspvgs70&l=Froogle

or a Canon GL1.

How much superior would the GL1 be? One of the main reasons I like the GL1 is because it looks like it could pick up better audio.

Both are 3CCD camcorders but does that mean they are the same quality?

599 looks like a damn good price for a 3ccd camera. Is Panasonic good?

Thanks everyone and hope to hear back soon.

Hatz

[Richard_G]

Looks like you're going for MiniDV then. I can't comment on the Panasonic as I've no experience of them. My only experience with Canon is with older analogue ones which seemed OK (some had a problem with tape transport) but one comment I will make is that the colour balance on a Canon always was more red. A friend with a Canon found the same thing, reds were far too bright. We figured that as most people tend to watch TV with the colour turned up far too bright (so skin doesn't look skin coloured), Canon had set the balance to ensure people didn't complain that the colour looked washed out.

One project I did was to shoot the same scene from three different angles simultaneously and then edit the footage down. The first time I did this, two camcorders were Sony and the third was a Canon. The colours from the Canon had far greater red saturation which meant I had to process the video afterwards to get the colours on all three shots the same.

3 CCD camcorders will give you better quality, no doubt about it. Less colour bleed being the most noticeable. On this sort of semi pro type equipment you may well get manual colour balance to correct any bias that the manufacturers build in.

The Canon GL1 is a good piece of kit, especially if you can get a good secondhand one for 800. If you are looking for 3 CCD, see if you can get a Sony VX1000 or TRV950 for that sort of money and consider them too. Then again, I'm biased being the owner of a Sony DCR-TR8000e (Digital 8), Sony DCR-VX700e (MiniDV) and a Sony DCR-VX1000e (MiniDV). I take my video very seriously!

[Hatz]

Hey again Richard....thanks for the other models to choose from. Didn't even know those models existed.....hehe looks like I need to start looking deeper if I am going to spend this money.

Now I guess I am a bit confused about something. From your post, I take it that you can't put an analog tape into a miniDV came because its not the right size. So in order to use it as a transfer device to the computer I would have to hook up the analog camcorder to the miniDV camcorder and then send it to the computer through firewire............is this right?

Also, do these models have analog hookups and what not?

And finally, with cameras such as the VX1000......how is sound quality? Does it pick up good sound? Can you shoot with these at night? I know sony is great for night shots with their infared or whatever it is.

Thanks for the help again.......I am currently looking at a VX1000 on ebay right now. Some are pretty cheap. Thanks.

Hatz

[Richard_G]

Correct, you can't put an analogue tape in a MiniDV camcorder because it won't fit. With passthrough you can put an analogue signal from another camcorder (or VHS machine, satellite receiver, cable TV decoder or any other video source) into the camcorder and output the signal as Firewire to your computer. That way you don't need to get started on the (very long and very steep) learning curve that analogue capture involves.

Due to some strange regulations, European models have inputs disabled but I think I am right in saying that all US models have analogue inputs enabled. Sound quality is as good as you will get with a mic mounted on the camcorder. If it picks up too much rubbish, just plug an external mic in. As it is intended for semi pro use, the VX1000 doesn't have the infra red nightshot feature, but does have a twilight setting for very low light shot (moonlight, fireworks, etc).

[Will Hay]

Due to some strange regulations, European models have inputs disabled

In order that we get f*cked by the government anything with analogue imput is classed as a 'VCR' and carries higher tax and ultimately costs more.
Complete bastards.
Will

[Richard_G]

Due to some strange regulations, European models have inputs disabled

In order that we get f*cked by the government anything with analogue imput is classed as a 'VCR' and carries higher tax and ultimately costs more.
Complete bastards.
Will

This is true, that's why only the high end camcorders have DV in enabled. The manufacturers/importers work on the principle that the vast majority of users of the lower spec 'consumer' camcorders will never use DV in so aren't going to miss it. They would however, notice if the price was higher, particularly if that was caused by paying for something they have no use for.

But all is not lost. Any UK or European camcorder owner (e suffix models in the case of Sony) can go to www.datavision.co.uk and buy an enabler. This reprograms the camcorder firmware so that DV in (and analogue passthrough in most cases) works. This isn't possible with every model of camcorder, some never had DV in no matter what market they were intended for so you can't put back something that was never there in the first place. I use a TR8000e not only as a camcorder but also as an analogue to digital passthrough and a portable video recorder.

Welcome back Will, I assume you were on holiday a couple of weeks ago as there were no posts from you for a while.

[SMHarman]

Thanks you two. Very informative.

<snip>
Any reason why you're looking at Hi8 as opposed to MiniDV?
The only reason I say go with a camcorder is if you have either a crap one or none at all.
<snip>
Just take not of the thread I participated in and think about the wear/strain you'll put on your new camcorder.
How much transfer are you intending?
I have loads, so the ADVC for me (I've now decided) is the best route.

I'm still torn though.......heheh. Man if only everything was so cheap.

Be glad you're not in the UK and paying the kind of prices we are
Will

Will

If your camcorder has passthrough circuitry then you are puttling little strain on it. None on the tape mechanisms. The camcorder converts the analogue tape to AVI and passes it to the computer HDD. No moving parts on the Camcorder are used.

Sony do Digital8 very similar to MiniDV, but the tape form is the same size as video8 Perhaps you should be looking at that instead

Price wise Nomatica seems to be very competitive, ships from France. Why are camcorders so much cheaper there.

[SMHarman]

[quote="Richard_G"]

<snip>

Digital 8 has the advantage that it is backwards compatible in as much as it will also play back Video 8 and Hi-8 analogue tapes and output them as Firewire (or i-Link as Sony insist on calling it). If you have tapes shot on an older analogue camcorder, you just put the tape in and play it, the camcorder does the analogue to digital conversion. Assuming you get one with Analogue in (which only the high end ones do in Europe but that's another story), you will be able to connect an analogue source (your VHS-C camcorder for instance) and either re-record the footage to D8 tape or simply use the camcorder as a passthrough device.

Sony seem to be dropping the analogue compatability quicker than a hot potato from their current range of camcorders.

Cannon also make fantastic camcorders IMHO. the 6xx range can suffer from motor noise on the inbuilt mike though.

[Will Hay]

Welcome back Will, I assume you were on holiday a couple of weeks ago as there were no posts from you for a while.

Thank you
A couple of weeks ago?
Haven't been away for a couple of months but I went through a patch where I was sick and tired of the shit here, but I'm always pulled back into the loop
Will

[henk schuifkaas]

But all is not lost. Any UK or European camcorder owner (e suffix models in the case of Sony) can go to www.datavision.co.uk and buy an enabler. This reprograms the camcorder firmware so that DV in (and analogue passthrough in most cases) works.

Or build a small cable and use the program dvinlite, as explained on www.dv-in-france.com. It's only on Frenck though. Worked perfectly for my sony trv6e (the "e" means European, so no dv-in), so now I'm able to return my edited video to the camera. If you open the small remote-control you can see where the 2 buttons are located to "record" in player-mode.