Violent crime in Australia

[gmatov]

Rabiddog,,

Get "Quigley Down Under" the movie, and, though it may not be totally accurate, I like Tom Selleck,the actor, who shoveled shit back into fatassed Rosiie ODonnell'ss face when she harangued him about bieng a gun fancier.

He told her guns were legal in most jurisdictions of the United States and she would NOT get him to be disparaging toward them. UNLIKE the Lethal Weapon series, with Mel Gibson and Danny Glover, who both shoot about 9000 rounds per film, yet manage to sneak in anti-gun propaganda in their films. This from the days of "Mad Max" on Mel Gibson's behalf, if he couldn't shoot guns, there was no movie.

They shoot like aholes anyway, an exec at one of the studios saw another ahole shoot his gun held ssideways one time and decided that was the way the "gangstas" shot pistols.

Experts have tested the theory and found, just as in a case where one of the aholes did shoot that way, that bystandders to the left or right of the target got hit rather than recoil sending shot 2, 3, 4, whatever over the target's head.

So, I guess you could say Bollywood is more to cause for the mayhem in our cities and neighborhoods than the gangbangers themselves are.

Sleep on that one.

Cheers,

George

[lordsmurf]

George, since you're the only American in the argument, I'll take your back, and say it is our right per our constitution. This is given for now. Nothing will change it outside of an act of congress. Buy all the guns you want.

But you've got to realize times change. Laws change with it. While "ban all guns" is a bit retarded, so is the "guns for all" stance.

A few things I saw: Kids kills kid with gun. Parents fault? Hell yes. Bad parenting? Hell no. Having the gun in the same house to begin with was a dumbass idea. My brother in law is a cop, keeps his guns in a safe. My nephew can't even reach the safe, much less put in the 6-digit combo to open in up. If he wasn't a cop, I'd be giving him hell about that gun. Kids play with new things.

Another one: what happens when our country is run by minorities? Look around. It's happening. EOE, Affrimative Action, loudmouth pundits on tv, companies suing for mass-approved practices (MP3 downloads)... minorities ARE making rules at this time.

I'm not afraid of people. I'm not afraid of most things. What scares me is the scrawny ass punk with a gun. While I could normally knock his ass unconscious in a fair fight, I'd be screwed if he got his grease mits on a gun. There ARE too many guns out there.

[rhegedus]

A few things I saw: Kids kills kid with gun. Parents fault? Hell yes. Bad parenting? Hell no. Having the gun in the same house to begin with was a dumbass idea. My brother in law is a cop, keeps his guns in a safe. My nephew can't even reach the safe, much less put in the 6-digit combo to open in up. If he wasn't a cop, I'd be giving him hell about that gun. Kids play with new things.

Your cop brother-in-law keeps his gun in an inaccessable safe (but you'd still give him hell - what more could he do?), but the parents who leave guns in easily accessable places are not 'bad parents'?

If all household guns were locked in a safe when not in use, there'd be no child deaths by firearms (infanticide aside).

[Will Hay]

Who the hell are we to criticize the Aussies and the Brits?

We're just as stupid, when it comes to "Weapons of Mass Destruction".

[lordsmurf]

(but you'd still give him hell - what more could he do?),

He doesn't hunt.

If he weren't a cop, what good would it be?

Protection? LOL! Don't think so. I can see it now. Burgular breaks in. He says "wait, let me get my gun out of my safe, I'll be back in a minute"

This is why guns are bad. Proper safekeeping are the reason the "protection" reasoning doesn't fly. And poor safekeeping is why kids are killed. Something has to give. Either the safekeeping, or the reason to even have it.

Kids die all the time. Bad parents can be the reason, but so can the random mishap. Those parents chose protection of safety. No more child. It is a hard choice, one that would be gone with the absence of needless gun ownership.

I even want a gun. I know how to not shoot myself with it. But when I have kids, I'd probably have to sell it. Keeping it in a safe does no good for me as far as protection goes.

[rhegedus]

If he weren't a cop, what good would it be?

I'm not one for hunting for the sake of trophys, but I accept the need to control animal population. People also shoot targets as a test of skill or marksmanship - this I can relate to since I've been shooting since the age of six.

As regards to the kids and guns scenario, wouldn't it be better to teach them respect for weapons and respect for life? After all, if (gun owning) parents won't teach them, who will?

[lordsmurf]

I'm not one for hunting for the sake of trophys, but I accept the need to control animal population.

This would be true in the country, but we're smack in the middle of Dallas, Texas... the worst animal I've ever seen here was a racoon in a park or maybe a stray dog. And don't forget that firing a firearm within the city limits is illegal. Since all cities touch, that's about 45 minutes south, 90 minutes north, 75 minutes west and 45 minutes east to leave the Metroplex and be in the actual country where there is game.

Don't let the name "Texas" fool your. I have never worn boots or a cowboy hats, never owned a truck or gun or horse, rarely ridden a horse, never been around cows or longhorns, and I equally hate A&M and UT. Dallas is just as urban as L.A. or Miami, other places with too many guns that are used in too many crimes.

... and again, most gun control is a city issue. Violent weapons-related crimes are not as prevalent there as they are in the city. There's not much to hunt around here, except for people and pets. I think this is why the guy on a farm is up in arms over this issue, while people in city apartments don't even care (or support it).

I think it needs attention. But I surely don't have the answers. I just know what we have now allows for room for improvement and doesn't really work that well.

[rhegedus]

One possible idea would be to do ballistics test on every weapon before it is sold, and the data held on a national database. The weapons should then be re-tested on an anual basis to prevent the modification of any barrel.

At least all crime committed with newly registered weapons would then be traceable.

[vitualis]

Hey, this thread is still going on!

I believe all the points I have to make have been made, and I don't feel like repeating myself endlessly.

As for George, the Daily Telegraph (Sydney newspaper) isn't the most highly regarded newspaper. I don't have anything that I can compare it to in the US, but it is basically your average poorly researched tabloid, but has a pretty good readership. As Sydney papers go, the Sydney Morning Herald is better (IMHO). There are national newspapers as well (e.g., The Australian) but I don't read them so I can't give you a good comment.

Regards.

[rhegedus]

I think he was enquiring about the our (UK) Telegraph.

www.telegraph.co.uk

[vitualis]

He was referring to his link... okay.

Regards.

[RabidDog]

quigley down under.. dont worry I got the cream and its all cleared up.
Guncrime in the Uk down, guncrime in certain hotspots (birmingham london) up. ?? what does this mean?
daily telegraph... bit of an old farts newspaper IMHO.

[thayne]

People also shoot targets as a test of skill or marksmanship - this I can relate to since I've been shooting since the age of six.

That's what I use my guns for. I don't kill anything with them, except empty beer cans. The only animal I would kill with my guns is a human criminal, but I got them mainly for target shooting.

[gmatov]

Michael,

No I was enquiring if the Telegraph, as in telegraph.co.uk was a
legitimate newspaper or the English equivalent of our Star and Enquirer, etc., with pictures of 1200 pound people and aliens and the like.

Thanks for the link to the Sydney paper, have to browse it.

Now, here's a question for you. I believe a famous news talking head was slain in England a few months back. Am I correc?

The question is: We read this in our papers and saw it on our TV.

I don't believe I have ever read a single word of the Tony Martin case here, in the major news media, nor seen anything on TV.

I read 2 of our local, competing, papers front to back, 5 days a week, at work. (I have time to kill between major breakdowns.)

You guys hear of every single shooting, stabbing, drug overdose, whatever that happens here.

Your 2 "mass" murders are to my recollection the only shootings I have heard of in our media.

Is your media so much better than ours at ferretting out this "news, being able to report every shot fired in this country?

Our media literally never report that a firearm has been discharged in any country, other than the ones we are not friends with, or that we have troops stationed in, on a combat, read peacekeeping/peacemaking, status.

It is beginning to seem to me that someone is trying their damnedest to disarm the US citizen. Not the military, but the private citizen.

The UN has its Commission to restrict the trade in small arms worldwide. It seems that only the US, the Swiss, and the Israelis have a "right" to bear arms, for the Swiss, it is "required", and for the Israelis, it is encouraged.

The commission seems to have only the US as the target nation, too many guns here. Almost everybody else has been effectively disarmed.

Funny thing is, a page in one of the Brit papers I found from a link, maybe from Rhegedus yesterday, gave a breakdown of the nations who are the major buyers of small arms, and the Saudis were at the top at about 25 billion dollars worth.

If you read any of our pro-gunrights magazines, you will find reports of an Israeli "citizen" popping a couple into the skull of a "suicide bomber".

I put that in quotes because they are not suicide "bombers", they are "suicide murderers". Killers for hire, a job that will last the rest of your life, because it has been documented that many of the Muslim/Moslem states give the murderer's survivors a death benefit of some 25,000 bucks.

BTW, even in Israel, you have to apply for a permit, the gist of which is you have to prove you are a Jew rather than a Moslem, rather similar to the statements I have made above that our first "gun control" laws were passed to keep guns out of the hands of our freed slaves.

I do believe it was/is the same in the South African nations. Afrikanners, it is your duty to bear weapons to keep the blacks subjugated.

In the rest of the world, it is a "privilege" afforded to the rich, the powerful, the politically connected.

It's getting to be the same here. The rich, the powerful, the politically connected, either have permits issued as a matter of course, or if they feel a pistol would affect the hang of their clothing, simply have a few bodyguards at their side at all times, ala Rosie Odonnell, who has bodyguards deliver her children to their classes every day, though she is one of the most vociferous of our "antis".

"You have NO right to have a gun, you should be thrown in jail for the rest of your life for HAVING a hand gun, not to mention actually using one, for whatever purpose", even if is to save a life. The underlined part is my own addition, if it shows as I want it to.(It ddidn't work..)

Ah, well, I don't think I am going to convert anyone here. A few "members of the choir" will see my point, but the rest of you will keep on keeping on. They're evil, and when you're not looking, one of them nasty guns is going to jump up and kill you.

Don't you know guns have a mind of their own,and they'll take any chance you give them to blow you away? Yeah, sure.

Cheers,

George

[vitualis]

No I was enquiring if the Telegraph, as in telegraph.co.uk was a legitimate newspaper or the English equivalent of our Star and Enquirer, etc., with pictures of 1200 pound people and aliens and the like.

Yep, I worked that out... My "Australian-centric" view got in the way...

Now, here's a question for you. I believe a famous news talking head was slain in England a few months back. Am I correc?

I live in Australia so I don't know / don't remember / (probably didn't really care)

Your 2 "mass" murders are to my recollection the only shootings I have heard of in our media.

Is this still directed at me? Apart from the Port Arthur massacre (highest number of people killed by single person in non-war situation or something like that) what was the second "mass" murder??

Is your media so much better than ours at ferretting out this "news, being able to report every shot fired in this country?

Our media literally never report that a firearm has been discharged in any country, other than the ones we are not friends with, or that we have troops stationed in, on a combat, read peacekeeping/peacemaking, status.

It is beginning to seem to me that someone is trying their damnedest to disarm the US citizen. Not the military, but the private citizen.

Perhaps surprising to you, our newspapers don't really concentrate all that much on US crime. They have much more fun trying to convince everyone that we are having a crime spree locally.

As for the differences between the US and Australian (and perhaps British) news media reporting practices, I would suggest perhaps it has much more to do with cultural / societal expections / demands. It seems to me that the US news tends to focus very much more on local / domestic issues (which is probably why it doesn't report all that much on "foreign" news items). Although most Australian news still tends to have a local focus, I think we get more international news.

It may simply be down to the fact that the US is "big" and "important" (so you just generate more "news worthy" content). For example, we get a reasonable amount of coverage on US domestic politics. Do you (does anyone outside AU) really care about Australian domestic politics?

Anyway, I wouldn't put it down to a conspiracy. Capitalism and material being produced for "Joe Citizen" is more to blame.

Regards.

[Craig Tucker]

The only report I can remember coming from Australia recently is that most Aussies could not stand it if England won the rugby world cup, and that the Aussie sports press has devoted a huge amount of column inches to the fact that England are beatable and that they are on the wain.

[Dragonsf]

I quite agree about the horrific death toll of cars, if they were any other device they would be banned. But politicians and most people either ignore or overlook the motorist death toll. Not to mention the indirect deaths by pollution and lack of exercise. Banning legal guns simply restricts the supply, criminals will still get guns but it makes it easier to prosecute people with guns, before they are used for their stated purpose (killing people).

I bet crme in germany was almost non existent during the second world war, I know crime was at very low levels in UK during WW2.

That's true: all the criminals were working for the Nazis, in one way or another.

[Will Hay]

You guys hear of every single shooting, stabbing, drug overdose, whatever that happens here.

Your 2 "mass" murders are to my recollection the only shootings I have heard of in our media.

Is your media so much better than ours at ferretting out this "news, being able to report every shot fired in this country?

Is this referring to the UK George?
If so it's complete rubbish, I'm a regular viewer of news channels (basically on teh hour each day when I'm in) and we only ever see the 'biggies'.
For instance, the sniper in the white van (?), the Brit nanny who shook the shit out of that poor kiddie and got away virtually scot-free and that black kid who got beaten by those racist cops.
I honestly can't remember anything else.
Oh no, wait, there was OJ too
Will

[Conquest10]

I got a question here. If someone gets murdered in the UK or Australia, does it make the news? Is it a big deal or not?

Do you (does anyone outside AU) really care about Australian domestic politics?

I don't think most Americans really care about anything that is not happening to them. The only time Australia is really mentioned here in the states is on the Crocodile Hunter.

[Craig Tucker]

I would say the majority of murders in the UK make it onto the news, if not national then certainly local.

[gmatov]

Michael,

No, this is toward the rest of the world, generally. As I mention above, I can only think of 3 countries that either generally have a "right" to firearms, the US, require ownership, Switzerland, encourage carry, Israel.

The rest of the world either outlaws, discourages, or discriminates.

Telegraph is an old fart's paper? Great! Right up my alley.

Will,

You didn't read about the Jamaican student (I think) who was shot in the vestibule of his apartment building? 41 shots the cops took, either 25 or 28 hits. Well he looked like he could have a gun. He was black.

No one in England has ever fired a gun at a human, so far as our papers and TV are concerned. If I didn't read the Telegraph, Economist, London times, you'd look like goodie-two-shoes, purely gentlepeople who would never think of injuring one another.

Those papers say crimes of violence are rising, but you guys say it's not so.

No, Michael, the Scottish shooting and the English shooting were what I was referring to, forgot about your horrendous mass shooting, the one that got guns outlawed. "Well, if we can'trust you people to not shoot each other, we'll just take all your guns off you."

Craig,

That's true, of course, a murder will certainly make it into the local news, no matter what the firearms situation is. Just in a restricted country, it may be more horrifying than it is here. "But we just passed all these laws totally outlawing those nasty things, and bought all the ones we couldn't find to confiscate. How can we have a shooting death? We'll have to pass more laws."

That is the normal response of our legislators, too. This country has more than 20,000 laws on the books concerning guns. Yet, rather than enforce them, every time some celebrity, or child, or whatever gets shot, "Let's pass a law!"

Have to stop here. From now on have to take the g'daughter to basketball practice. Soccer ends this weekend, but a grandpap's work is never done.



I don't know if you guys know basketball. All I know about it is I don't like it, have to take reading material, snacks, maybe a radio.

Have fun, talk at you later, glad to not see any rancour this thread.

Cheers,

George

[g_shocker182]

And the last reply from a citizen of one of the latest states to try to out-California California.
The state which has set up a database of fired bullets and casings from all new guns sold

The State which went house to house to confiscate every .223 caliber rifle in their records to find the Beltway Sniper, and every rifle that a neighboring snoop told the police a townie might have.

This is the case where the "great" Chief Moose ignored the reports of a Chevy car because they were sure it was a white van,and the experts came up with a "profile" of a white man 30 to 45 years old, with a grudge, etc., etc.

Turned out to be a sick 30 something black male and a teenager from the Caribbean.

Great police work. I think it was a trucker who found them sleeping in a car.

Sniper, my gigbutt. Not even decent plinkers. Yet they managed to paralyze half the Eastern Seaboard.

Speaking of the sniper, has anyone noticed my "Location"?

If you don't remember, take a look:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/South/10/09/shootings.maryland/

That gas station is only a few miles away from my school. And where is Malvo being held? My county's prison. And where was their car (that old thing they shot out of) brought once they were found? The building NEXT to my school.

[Doggiedaddy]

Blah, blah, blah, all I know is it's me and my 44. This crap makes me proud to be an American. God, guts and guns made this country. Don't get mad, it is just how it is, Resistance is futile!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Devanshu]

Resistance is futile!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[vitualis]

I got a question here. If someone gets murdered in the UK or Australia, does it make the news? Is it a big deal or not?

Most murders would probably make the news in Australia -- if not nationally, it would probably at least make it to the state / regional level (i.e., it will probably be reported on TV).

Regards.

[RabidDog]

talking head who got shot in the Uk might be woman from crimewatch (brain! work damn you!) They arrested some guy (barry george) who has been convicted on some shaky evidence, a single speck of gunpowdwer in his coat pocket. However the thing about the case is that it was very high profile and the police reportedly spent about £3,000,000 trying to catch the killer. And they werent about to say we cant convict anyone after spending these sums. It could have a croatian hitman, perhaps don pedro did it!

[rhegedus]

Jill Dando?

I too have doubts about the conviction, but I don't know enough about it to be sure.

All I know is that for al the time (a year or more) that the police were investigating the case, they kept on repeating that this was a professional hit, done by an expert marksman with expert local knowledge and excellent fitness. That was right up until they arrested a sad loner with more interest in Freddie Mercury memorobilia than guns. In the words of Donald 'Duck' Dunn from the Blues Brothers: 'If the shit fits, wear it!' So some guy gets banged up because it's easier to stitch up Jonny 'no-mates' than it is to do some real detective work!

Yeah, he was convicted on some junpowder speck on his coat. Shit! I bet that there is cocaine residue on the notes inside my wallet, but that doesn't mean I use cocaine!

[ChrisX]

There was violence in Sydney over the weekend: a gang of 50 men attacked a group of teenagers and robbing them. Gangs are getting out of control in Sydney.

They were made to kneel with theirs backs to the attackers. The weapons were crowbars, boltcutters and a gun. They were kicked instead of using the weapons.

Check out: http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1258&storyid=394650

I think this will happen; the police will raid the gangs and arrest them soon in a massive operation against gang crime.

[gmatov]

Chris,

I can't believe you don't register bolt cutters. Quite evidently, they are dangerous offensive weapons.

What I can't, really, believe iss that the typical Australian has become such a pussy, oops, I mean wimp.

There was a time when the world went to war and the Aussies said wait for us, we're coming.

Now, it looks like they, most of them, probably those less than about 40 years old say, Whoa, don't hit me..

And shovels, too. Don't you register and confiscate those dangerous implements? Shame on you. You just seem not to know what is a dangerous weapon and what isn't.

I mean, you HAVE taken pocket knives, the so-called pen knife, designed to sharpen a quill pen, from all those 17 and younger.

Your rulers are slipping. Legs o'lamb still legal, frozen type?

Ask your local rep if he's allowed to carry a weapon for defense, or if he relies upon a bodyguard.

Better yet, ask him if he carries a weapon of his own law or no law.

Cheers,

George

[pacmania_2001]

Ask your local rep if he's allowed to carry a weapon for defense, or if he relies upon a bodyguard.

Actually my local representative stopped in last week because my parents had some issues with the government they needed to discuss. Didn't see a bodyguard or a weapon.

Same with nearly every other representative I've ever meet/had visit. The former premier was next to my brother and me at the cinema with his family, the state and local reps that always come out for every little ceremony etc at school and university never had bodyguards or carried weapons.

In fact the only one that I have seen with a bodyguard was when the Premier (the same as a state governor in the US) came to our university and I believe that was only due to a heightened terror alert at the time.

Plus comparing an ordinary person to a political leader isn't exactly comparing apples with apples. If I wanted to I could have 50 bodyguards with me wherever I went but I dont because I feel safe and I'm not exactly a specific terrorist target.

You won't see the Premier or the Prime Minister carrying a weapon themselves anyway.

As for the recent spate of gang related activity in Sydney I blame that more on racial tension and certain minority groups then the lack of guns that a civilian can own.