Pioneer to launch dual-layer DVD-R recording

[PhilipL]

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[cplevel42]

I'm ready to burn some dual layered DVDs. I wonder when they will hit the stores. Probably 2005.

[BJ_M]

wow -- ill have to eat my words .... i never thought possable within several years ..

[-jsl-]

Coincidence that Pioneer release some numbers about dual layer DVD-R just after Philips'/Mitsubishi's press release about dual layer DVD+R?
http://www.dvdrw.com/press/duallayer.htm
Anyway it will be interesting to see when the first dual layer burner show up.

[MOVIEGEEK]

Very interesting indeed,I would rather upgrade to a dual-layer writer than a 8x+ writer but maybe in a couple of years we can have both.

[PhilipL]

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[solarfox]

Of course, with dual layer actually being a whole new format, wouldn't it have been good if Pioneer, Philips and Sony could have pooled their resources and patents, and given us just one new dual-layer format.

If they wouldn't do it before with single-layer, what makes you think they'd ever do it now? In any case, it's not really a "new" format, as such; each of them is just adding dual-layer capacity to their own existing formats.

That's assuming, of course, that either of these moves beyond the "vaporware" stage and actually shows up on store shelves.

[Jimmykicker]

Any chance that the dual layer writing will require just a firmware upgrade? It seems logical...but I may be pretty far off....

[i am x]

Hi

No surprise really, we had the announcement from Sony, and now Pioneer have announced they are going ahead with dual-layered DVD-R.

So from hearing this, when it happens, that means no more need for compression when backing up our DVD's. They'll only have to be decrypted, then from that point, it's a straight copy to disc with zero% quality loss. Sounds REAL GOOD.............

[tompika]

Pioneer have jitter values and reflectivity measurements that seem to indicate good compatibility

A technical question to PhilipL:
Can the current firmwares make the standalone players jump to the next layer when a DVD-R is detected?

[MOVIEGEEK]

Any chance that the dual layer writing will require just a firmware upgrade? It seems logical...but I may be pretty far off....

From what I've read It seems unlikely,the dual-layer disks need a special laser and/or controller due to different write strategy.

[Grant_H]

Any chance that the dual layer writing will require just a firmware upgrade? It seems logical...but I may be pretty far off....

[tompika]

It was a prototype burner not the ones in the shops.
http://www.research.philips.com/Assets/Downloadablefile/dual-layer_dvdr-2617.pdf

[spath]

Wednesday BenQ/Philips announce 8x + drives being shipped this
month and the same day a preliminary (at most 2 weeks old) A07
specification from Pioneer gets "leaked", which of course promises
8x - burning.

Today Philips announces dual layer +R success and a few hours
later cdrinfo publishes a 5 lines statement about dual layer -R,
without any link to Pioneer or any document (yet immediately
propagated by the DVD- super-zealot).

Are you guys that naive ?

[kamuixtv]

1. How true is the information from cdrinfo?
2. No firmware upgrades?...all our current burner(s) will die soon.
3. Samsung plans to release a Blu-ray burner next year...where are we going now?

[MeTaLgEaRsOoTy]

personally i cant see it all hapenning within 2-3 years.
i mean companies are still releasing new burners,like the proposed 107 from pioneer.
and if its to appear sooner,i bet there will be a lot of pissed owners of redundant burners.

[Faustus]

They are fast approaching the top of the line speed on DVD burners. This lets them start all over if that want. Say at 2x. 1 hour for a dual layer disc. then they get to sell you new speeds all over again. Personally I dont care if it does take an hour I want one yesterday. I don't even care if its - or +.

[PhilipL]

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[kabanero]

Of course the other option is just to stick a DVD-ROM flag on the disc regardless!

Regards

Philip

Philip,

Can you set BookType to DVD-ROM on DVD-R/RW disks?

[tompika]

Can you set BookType to DVD-ROM on DVD-R/RW disks?

Not on the current ones.
They might change it on the dual layer DVD-R.

[kabanero]

Can you set BookType to DVD-ROM on DVD-R/RW disks?

Not on the current ones.
They might change it on the dual layer DVD-R.

Yes, I know.

But I was waiting answer from Philip, to see what new fairy tale he was going to tell us.

[kamuixtv]

A Hint from the past...hey guys keep it in mind that I was just reasoning here...I don't like their idea do they mean that single layer DVD burners will die soon? f*ck! I can still use my 7 years old 2x CDR burner today!!!

http://www.pioneeraus.com.au/multimedia/dvd/dvd-r_faq.htm

Q: Can I use the current model DVD Writers to write to Dual Layer DVD-R's when they become available?

A: The basic technology for Dual layer DVD-R media is still under development so it would be impossible to incorporate this ability into the current model writers as no standards or media exist yet. It could be a few years away. No one knows what will be required to write to dual layer media if and when it appears. There is no doubt that a new drive will be required to write to dual layer DVD-R's.

[PhilipL]

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[SaSi]

Even if recording dual layer was feasible by today's recorders doing a f/w upgrade, can you imagine a manufacturer taking a technology to it's final steps and finalizing new products - and also providing f/w upgrades so people don't have to buy these brand new products? Makes no sense.

Actually, I was amazed that SONY brought out the f/w upgrade that made the DRU500A record 4X on DVD+R. I can only guess it was done because they were not ready for a proper 4x +R drive and they wanted to "protect" their format against the -R manufacturers.

Back to dual layer, recording that media really requires different laser and focusing mechanisms. Having read that a +RW has the same reflectivity as a dual layer pressed DVD-ROM, I can only assume that a dual layer recordable or rewritable will have even less reflectivity.

This (I continue to imagine) will cause a range of DVD players not to playback these new dual layer recordables, in the same way early CD players couldn't play recordables and later models couldn't play rewritables.

The only thing I'm certain about is that dual layer recorders will hit the market. The standards are there, the technology is there and Blue ray is way back in the drawing boards - despite prototypes being sold in Japan.

Manufacturers need a new stream of products to cash-in.

And they all also need time to invent an unbreakable encryption for Blue Ray. Don't want to repeat the same mistakes.

And if Pioneer and SONY compete, well, I couldn't be happier about it. I hope both make it to the market with competing products. Better products, better prices and prices will compete-down for us.

[Faustus]

Can you set BookType to DVD-ROM on DVD-R/RW disks?

Not on the current ones.
They might change it on the dual layer DVD-R.

Yes, I know.

But I was waiting answer from Philip, to see what new fairy tale he was going to tell us.

Please stop these personal attacks or I will lock this thread also. Just because you disagree does not give you reason to behave like a 5 year old. We are talking... actually Speculating about something not even out yet. Stop.

[kamuixtv]

Alright, forget the FAQs Read the OFFICIAL Press Release

http://www.pioneer.co.jp/press/release125.html

http://www.pioneer.co.jp/press/press2003-e.html

At least now I believe in CDRinfo's news.

Pioneer was working on dual layer for years...

http://www.pioneer.co.jp/crdl/rd/8-2e.html

[jeex]

"dvd-r9 is more compatible than dvd+r9!"... "yeah, but dvd+r9 is better!!"

its going to happen all over again..

but in the end, the whole encoding process will finally die.. no more cce, no more tmpgenc, just straight 1:1 copies with all the, menu's, extra's and audio tracks..

i'll buy a dual layer burner as soon as it comes out

[tompika]

"dvd-r9 is more compatible than dvd+r9!"... "yeah, but dvd+r9 is better!!"

If they both are flagged as DVD-ROM and the quality of the media (and the burning) is reliable
then their compatibility will be the same...

[RAAGAAman]

PhilipL
That is a good point, the dual-layer DVD-R disc should still be okay with a DVD-R flag. Commercial pressed DVDs have a DVD-ROM flag regardless of being dual-layer or single. The player knows it has a second layer as the disc lead-in contains an end sector address for the first layer, and contains an overall end-sector address, so it knows it must have a second layer and when it will need to switch to it.

Technically a DVD Player should be fine reading this sector information from a DVD-R disc as well. However, it depends on the firmware the manufacturer has programmed, will it accept finding a DVD-R flag, and then also finding a second layer sector address? I suspect this will upset some DVD Players.

You forgot one thing. The Reflectivity is different from a DVD-R to a Dual Layer DVD disk. 85% vs 18%. You cannot just set it to DVD-R and say it will work. Espeically since DVD-R already has the End and address written in the embossed lead-in. Not sure what the forum will do with that since hollywood will surely be concerned about copy protection.
Sounds like a "DVD-ROM" or maybe "DVD-RW" book value is the way to go since the reflectivity may be closer.

RG

[PhilipL]

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