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  1. Originally Posted by gcutler
    Originally Posted by bugster
    So these DishPVR's (and others) are similiar to the Sky+ PVR we have here in the UK. It seems the main difference is that Sky+ stores the encrypted stream on the HD, and as Sky encryption has not been cracked yet (AFAIK), removing the HD is of little use.
    There is talk that if/when Murdoch buys DirectTV, an NTSCized Sky+PVR will be what DirectTV starts to sell to its customers (side by side with, or possibly instead of the DirectTiVos) That can only improve the chances of the encryption being cracked with another potential 10 Million DirectTV subs wanting what you want
    Bugster: The Disnetwork Dishplayer and 501/508 do not store it encrypted, the 721 Dual tuners and running a form of linux like the the Tivos do is encrypted and the upcoming 921 (HD PVR) is reported to be encrypted. So as I understand it in that case the DMCA does come into it. One other thing the 50x series PVRs do is also record the music channels.

    Cheers
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  2. Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    @TBoneIt.
    Then, as with all things technology, they've changed something. Again.
    http://www.coolstf.com/mpeg
    That's totally possible as I had seen reports of 480 by 480 for Dishnetwork too. But When I started extracting them this year that's the resolutions I saw.

    The 640 by 480 being the troublesome one since one player plays them with the left side off screen and the other plays them with a blank space on the left. SO I recode them to 1/2 D1 overnight and then author them.

    Cheers
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  3. Originally Posted by arDuck
    Originally Posted by TBoneit
    For Dps you'd join the Dishplayer Explorer Group on Yahoo Groups and for the 50x series you can Join the Dishrip Yahoo Group.

    Dishrip group has software that will extract the 501/8 video for you.
    Tutorials to convert etc.
    Yea, I followed the Dishplayer Explorer Group for a while. Had a 7200 but lost it to lightning. Now have a 508. One of the pics from the group showed a hot-swap HD enclosure on top of the 7200 so it was easy to swap between the DP and a PC. I'll check out the DishRip group and see how successful people are extracting files. Seems to be about an equal amount of hassle copying -vs- capturing so unless there is a substantial improvement in quality by copying, the capture route may be the choice.

    My feeling was/is that capturing and then 2 pass encoding results are ok, but time consuming. Capturing direct to MPEG was so-so quality.

    Extracting and not encoding you get what quality there is unchanged. and faster, that's why I do it. Since My Players play the 544 by 480 stuff fine. I can just extract, DVDPatcher, add to author program, unpatch, edit, clip, cut, author and burn. at Dish's bitrates that equals 2 to 3 movies per DVD.

    I use the Dishplayers because they work, no warranty to worry about, easy drive size upgrade. People are running 120Gig units in their Dishplayers these days.

    Cheers

    Thanks..
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  4. Originally Posted by gcutler
    Originally Posted by bugster
    So these DishPVR's (and others) are similiar to the Sky+ PVR we have here in the UK. It seems the main difference is that Sky+ stores the encrypted stream on the HD, and as Sky encryption has not been cracked yet (AFAIK), removing the HD is of little use.
    There is talk that if/when Murdoch buys DirectTV, an NTSCized Sky+PVR will be what DirectTV starts to sell to its customers (side by side with, or possibly instead of the DirectTiVos) That can only improve the chances of the encryption being cracked with another potential 10 Million DirectTV subs wanting what you want
    I doubt that DirectTV currently uses the same encryption scheme as Sky. I say this as I have 'heard' that there are already systems available for receiving free DirectTV and they are launching lawsuits against anybody they believe has purchased such devices. Sky has not yet been cracked (AFAIK) so I conclude the encryption systems are different. DirectTV could not upgrade to Sky's encryption without replacing every single receiver in use, which I think is unlikley.
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  5. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bugster
    Originally Posted by gcutler
    Originally Posted by bugster
    So these DishPVR's (and others) are similiar to the Sky+ PVR we have here in the UK. It seems the main difference is that Sky+ stores the encrypted stream on the HD, and as Sky encryption has not been cracked yet (AFAIK), removing the HD is of little use.
    There is talk that if/when Murdoch buys DirectTV, an NTSCized Sky+PVR will be what DirectTV starts to sell to its customers (side by side with, or possibly instead of the DirectTiVos) That can only improve the chances of the encryption being cracked with another potential 10 Million DirectTV subs wanting what you want
    I doubt that DirectTV currently uses the same encryption scheme as Sky. I say this as I have 'heard' that there are already systems available for receiving free DirectTV and they are launching lawsuits against anybody they believe has purchased such devices. Sky has not yet been cracked (AFAIK) so I conclude the encryption systems are different. DirectTV could not upgrade to Sky's encryption without replacing every single receiver in use, which I think is unlikley.
    To clarify for you, DirecTV uses NDS for encyrption.
    Echostar (and foreign subsidiaries like BelleVue) use Nagra.
    Both are easily hacked, though highly illegal.

    I can only find limited info on non-USA systems, but they appear to most be on variants of Nagra and another system.

    NDS is also used in Australia, home of Rupert Murdoch. Mr. Murdoch's News Corp owns NDS. I don't think it's used outside Australia and USA.
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  6. Originally Posted by bugster
    It seems the main difference is that Sky+ stores the encrypted stream on the HD, and as Sky encryption has not been cracked yet (AFAIK), removing the HD is of little use.
    I think that it's the unencrypted stream that Sky+ stores. The problem is that the hard drive isn't formatted for either Windows or Linux so even if you do connect the HD into your PC, the PC can't actually see it.

    I have a card for grabbing the raw DTT streams and that yields excellent quality (plus the fact the DTT uses slightly higher bitrates than Sky), but I have now got a SkyStar 2 Digisat PCI card (for a tenner!!) so intend trying to grab some European FTA satellite broadcasts and see how they compare with Murdoch's offerings. The good thing about the DTT caps is that they are already DVD MPEG2 streams and only need re-muxing before buring directly onto a DVDR disc. Definately this is the best way to go for capturing TV broadcasts, but I dont think it is really feesible in America yet.
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  7. Originally Posted by bugster
    Originally Posted by gcutler
    Originally Posted by bugster
    So these DishPVR's (and others) are similiar to the Sky+ PVR we have here in the UK. It seems the main difference is that Sky+ stores the encrypted stream on the HD, and as Sky encryption has not been cracked yet (AFAIK), removing the HD is of little use.
    There is talk that if/when Murdoch buys DirectTV, an NTSCized Sky+PVR will be what DirectTV starts to sell to its customers (side by side with, or possibly instead of the DirectTiVos) That can only improve the chances of the encryption being cracked with another potential 10 Million DirectTV subs wanting what you want
    I doubt that DirectTV currently uses the same encryption scheme as Sky. I say this as I have 'heard' that there are already systems available for receiving free DirectTV and they are launching lawsuits against anybody they believe has purchased such devices. Sky has not yet been cracked (AFAIK) so I conclude the encryption systems are different. DirectTV could not upgrade to Sky's encryption without replacing every single receiver in use, which I think is unlikley.
    I think we just crossed two sets/types of encryption here.

    The NDS & Nagra are for the data stream access from the Satellite to receiver. which is where the the smartCards are involved. But as I understand it and I could be wrong NDS and Nagra are the scheme on the cards that keeps the hackers out, and that, maybe, the decryption scheme is also tied to the cards. as I understand it DirecTV is also developing their own cards that use no NDS code.

    Anyway The Other Encryption or lack thereof is what happens to the data stream after it is received before it gets to the PVRs hard drive. That data stream as I understand it isn't encrypted in Dishplayers and 50x from Dishnetwork, Wheras the Dish 721, upcoming 921 do encrypt it before storing it, most likely with a hardware chip, since the encryption keeps changing, once again as I understand it. If they didn't re-encrypt the data the older ones would become unwatchable. I seem to recall that Tivo or maybe DirecTivo encrypts also.

    Hope I clarified?
    Cheers
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  8. TBoneit, the Sky data stream is encrypted before transmission, and stored on the Sky+ HD as received. The smart card and decryption system on the receiver is required to play back any stored program. In fact, if you record a program from say Sky sport channel, then cancel your Sky sports subscription (just keeping the other channels), you can no longer watch the recorded program from that channel. Basically, you must have a valid subscription to watch a recorded program.
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  9. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bugster
    TBoneit, the Sky data stream is encrypted before transmission, and stored on the Sky+ HD as received. The smart card and decryption system on the receiver is required to play back any stored program. In fact, if you record a program from say Sky sport channel, then cancel your Sky sports subscription (just keeping the other channels), you can no longer watch the recorded program from that channel. Basically, you must have a valid subscription to watch a recorded program.
    This is how DirecTV works too, as does DISH (though they have some PVR that is not encrpyted).

    On a side note, all encryption is hardware-based (actually firmware-based). The code is on chips in the hardware, but the hardware can only hold one style of encryption. There is not software involved. The only software that can be changed is the datastream (such as implantation of ECMs). This is why all the systems can be hacked, and why new smart cards are released as a combattant to deter piracy. The chips on the cards contain the decryption algorithms. The receiver recompiles the date into information and video. The card unlocks what was locked at the beaming center (like the DirecTV one in Colorado). Yes, even SKY can be hacked, though I am unaware if it has been made publicly known (or even if it has been privately accomplished).

    All this being said, the best way to capture a satellite signal is to forget all about it being digital in the first place. Just understand its resolution and capture as normal, as you would from any VHS tape or broadcast signal.
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  10. The Old One SatStorm's Avatar
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    NDS (known in Europe as Videoguard) is NOT hacked.
    Nagra (Known in Europe as Nagravision) is well hacked....


    Something to think for:

    There are 2 ways for a PVR to store on HD an encrypted transmission

    - Encrypted
    - Non Encrypted

    Or in other words:
    If the PVR decrypt a service and then stores it to HD, then on HD the file is not encrypted. Can be extracted and used as any mpeg 2 file
    If the PVR don't decrypt FIRST a service, then it stores the signal before decryption. Later, if you wish to see this, you must have the card on the reciever and you have to be lucky, so the codes (aka "keys") are not changed meanwhile.
    There are encryption systems that the providers they using them, use to change keys daily (irdeto, nagravision) and providers they keep for days (months, years....) the same keys (Seca/mediaguard, Viaccess, NDS...)

    The laws for copyright issues are clear on this: PVRs must store encrypted and only encrypted.

    Many PVRs in Europe, don't follow this "rule". They decrypt the transmission and then store to HD. On certain PVRs (Topfield, Humax, Dreambox, LG/Citycom, micronik, etc), you can connect those HDs to PCs and with certain programs, from unofficial sources (ha ha ha, the reciever manufactures are behind...) you can transfer those recordings to your PC in an mpeg 2 form, so to do whatever you wish with them.

    About Sky+ digiboxes: It is possible using specific PC RAID motherboards, to connect a specific digibox and record events on a Virtual HD on your PC. With a very rare software, you can convert the files of this virtual HD to mpeg 2 (not the ac3 transmissions yet...). Then, you do whatever you wish... Of course, expect tons of crashes, lipsynch problems etc.

    I repeat: NDS is not hacked. You can only trick the card to buy for nothing 15 pay per view events (using a simply 1.5Volt batery and 2 cables to connect to the phone line jack...). The reciever must not be on the phone line ever again to work this. Beyond that, nothing NDS is hackable.

    Some waffer cards for British FTV channels appeared 2 years ago in Cyprus and other European countries, was simply "clones" of BBC FTV cards. Now this is history also...
    Same story with Italy's stream (now sky italia...). A reciever software backdoor allowed for a while some NDS subcripters watch for free NDS services, 3 years ago. A firmware upgrade and that was also history....


    Finally, DVB resolutions are anything between 352 - 720 horizontal "lines". 640 x 576 it is used in Europe (Polish Cyfra+ packet). After they add some picture flags, this framesize don't have any problem with any DVB reciever.

    @energy80s: You know that with your card, you can watch realtime the new Astra PAL HDTV channel, right? Beyond the users of nokia 9600 with dvb2000 firmware, those SkyStar 2 Digisat PCI cards are the only one capable to show this channel correct!
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  11. Yeah, I haven't gotten the card installed yet (too busy in work) but I hope to have it running by the end of the day. I believe that there is software available that will break the encryption of many European Digital pay packages (ie. Canal +) for the PC - so I'll have to do a bit of underground digging later in the week!!!!!

    As for the Sky+ box, after talking to a well known BBC source, I've found that it stores the ENCRYPTED stream on a hardrive formatted with a proprietory version of DOS, so although you can get a PC to recognise it you can't do anything with it! So bugger that.

    At least everyone can now enjoy BBC programming for free right across Europe - I wonder will it still be in the clear when the show Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Stone at 3.10pm on Christmas Day afternoon!!
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  12. The Old One SatStorm's Avatar
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    Emulation helps for any OS (including DOS). I already mention "Virtual drive" he he he...

    Well, BBC in not recievable across Europe anymore! Only Germany, part of Scandinabian countries, part of France and north spain / portugal can recieve the Astra 2D satellite with typical satellite dishes.
    For the rest of us, bigger ones are needed. For example, Northern - west Greece needs 3 meter dishes, Athens 4.30 dishes.... I have only 1.80m.
    I'm one of those who wished this transfer never happened!
    At least I can see BBC Prime (viaccess, what a wonderfull encryption system... ) from Hotbirds, for Top of the Pops 2 (the only show I see from BBC lately).
    I also miss BBC radio 1 (why you don't carry BBC radio 1 at Astra 2B? I mean, you already have some BBC radios there recievable in Europe...)
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  13. Extraction of video/audio files from Tivo is absolutely possible and not that difficult.
    It is not discussed openly so as not to p**s of Tivo as they leave the Tivo hack friendly for other things like homebrew apps and HD upgrades.
    But seek Google and you will find!

    Zen
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    I "download" the mpeg2 stream from my cable network to my harddrive with an Hauppage DVB-C PCI card. It works without a problem. I'm happy to live in Europe! It stores the recordings after they have been decrypted.

    Demux with PVAStrumento to mpv and mpa and author to DVD with DVDlab.

    Most of the interesting channels I watch use 704x576 resolution and I don't need to reencode it for DVD. Some channels use 352x576, 480x576 and 544x576 resolution.
    Ronny
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  15. Originally Posted by SatStorm
    Well, BBC in not recievable across Europe anymore! Only Germany, part of Scandinabian countries, part of France and north spain / portugal can recieve the Astra 2D satellite with typical satellite dishes.
    For the rest of us, bigger ones are needed. For example, Northern - west Greece needs 3 meter dishes, Athens 4.30 dishes.... I have only 1.80m.
    I'm one of those who wished this transfer never happened!
    At least I can see BBC Prime (viaccess, what a wonderfull encryption system... ) from Hotbirds, for Top of the Pops 2 (the only show I see from BBC lately).
    I also miss BBC radio 1 (why you don't carry BBC radio 1 at Astra 2B? I mean, you already have some BBC radios there recievable in Europe...)
    Well, the move to Astra 2D was specifically to stop reception across Europe, and that's what the Beeb have told film distributers, but with a little extra investment you can get the signal over most of Europe just fine. A lot of rows are currently brewing between the Corporation and various rights holders (mainly FOX - surprise, surprise!) about going unencrypted across Europe but only paying UK & Irish programme rights.

    It's possible that other BBC radio stations might appear back on 2B, at present Radios 2 and 4 have been put back on the satellite specifically for European listeners. Write in to the BBC and ask for Radio One to be re-instated!
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  16. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SatStorm
    NDS (known in Europe as Videoguard) is NOT hacked.
    Tell this to DirecTV hackers. I hope you mean Europe's NDS and not all NDS.
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  17. I have heard of people getting DirectTV here in the US but only the info channels, the DirectTV hackers don't hack the encryption just the cards for encrypting, with DISH the encryption is actually broken
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    I couldn't possibly read all the replies in this thread, but for a very long time I've been capturing to my DishNetwork PVR which is hooked up to my ATI All In Wonder Radeon card in the PC using the S-Video and standard audio connections. I capture the video in AVI format using VirtualDub. I purchased the PICVideo codec, so that's the compression I use (but HuffyUV is free and good). I then use my bitrate calculator to see what bitrate to use based on video length. I then configure TMPGEnc to compress the video. It turns out great, and there really isn't that much work to it if you begin and end your capture at the exact right spot, and you have a large enough hard drive to hold the AVI file created with VirtualDub (Plus the resulting mpeg created with TMPGEnc).
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  19. I have a DirecTV DVR, and I have it connected to a Sony RDR-GX7 component DVD burner.
    1. I record off of DirecTV onto DVD-RW discs
    2. I use DVD Decryptor to rip the files onto my desktop
    3. I use Womble Mpeg-VCR to remove any and all commercials, and save the file as an Mpeg-2 file.
    3. I use Ulead DVD MovieFactory2 to create the image files, and I burn the projects using Nero 6.

    I hope that helps.

    Great guide to use: http://www.dvdguideuk.dsl.pipex.com/dvdguide/editing1/editing1.htm
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  20. Originally Posted by arDuck
    I'm just getting this worked out myself but here is what I am doing. I have a DishPVR 508 from dishnetwork that has an internal hard drive like the TIVO. There isn't any way to stream the file in its original MPEG-2 format from the DispPVR to the computer. There may be on the TIVO but I don't think so.

    I have an ATI All-in-wonder card in my computer that accepts composite and S-Video inputs. (I have also used an AverMedia EZMaker capture card with satisfactory results when encoding at MPEG1 - VCD format). I record most programs on the DishPVR so I can pause and rewind during capture (bypassing commercials). If you are already capturing from VHS the same process can be used to capture from a TIVO/DishPVR.

    Some people had modified earlier DishPlayer models (7100/7200) to allow the HD to be removed and there were programs that copied the files from the HD to a computer but I haven't seen anyone doing that yet with the 508.

    Checkout the PVRs at www.dishnetwork.com and DVR's at www.directv.com for a comparison of capabilities.
    Visit the Dishrip group at Yahoo.... As I understand it since the content is not encrypted or copy protected the DMCA doesn't come into it.

    Their reason for being is to help get the video from a 7100/7200 & 501/508/510 hard drives into the computer. Haven't done a 501 myself but I read the messages.

    There is software for both platforms 7x00 and 5xx for ripping from the drive into the computer.

    Of course at that point you will have 544 by 480 or 640 by 480 video and have to decide what processing to give it. for example I have DVD players that will play 544 by 480 but either put part of the 640 by 480 off screen or leave a blank space on one side. Yoy'd use DVD patcher to patch TO 720 by 480 and add to TMPGenc save project. repatch back to original res. Edit and then author, cutting and trimming in TMPgenc DVD program.

    In fact I'm off to d/l the latest versions in case I ever decide to pull my 501s drives.

    If you copy direct to computer and author with no encoding you'll get the best quality.

    Cheers
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