TMPGenc "grid" artifact

[wes2666]

I have a question about my final MPeg-2 product after encoding with TMPGenc.

When I play my DVDrs on my standalone player, I see a noisy "grid" artifact made up of 1/2"-3/4" squares that covers the whole picture. It is most visible in black and white films against a plain background (sky, empty walls, etc) and it is more visible the closer I get to the screen.

Is there any way I can eliminate or quiet down this grid? Looking for a method that doesn't degrade overall picture quality, and doesn't add too many hours to my encoding time.

I am encoding mostly captures from laserdisc, so it is a pretty clean signal.

I've done a few web searches but I'm not sure that I'm using the right terms.

Here is my method:
capture w/Canopus ADVC-50 via RCA conectors, encode w/TMPGENC (2-Pass VBR at between 4700-8000 kbs, Motion Search Precision at Highest Quality), author w/ULEAD, burn w/SONY DW-U10A onto Optodisc or Memorex DVDr, Mpeg-2 audio

Any help would be appreciated
Will

[Tommyknocker]

Have you tried this guide?

[wes2666]

Yup, back when I was first starting out. I incorporated most of these suggested settings, along with a few from other guides. Was there something in particular in that guide that you think will solve my problem? I just skimmed it again but I didn't see anything specifically related. I don't think my problem is the "block noise" that the guide-writer refers to (I think that means something else), but in any case I am enoding at high-enough bit rates that I shouldn't have to worry about that (at least as far as this guide is concerned).

Thanks. any other ideas?

[bugster]

Have you tried the noise reduction filter in TmpGenc. It does add significantly to the encode time, but it in some situations, used correctly, it can work wonders.

[lordsmurf]

Macroblocks. Something is wrong with the source or a re-author in the authoring app. The encode should not be doing this. I never have this error when using a decent bitrate on good source.

[wes2666]

Macroblocks? Is that what they are generally called? I don't think there is anything wrong with my source (mostly Canopus captures from laserdisc). What could my authoring program (Ulead movie studio) be doing to introduce these errors?

I have received discs made on standalones that also have this "grid" artifact.

I am more inclined to think this has to do with settings and/or filters in TMPGenc rather than flawed source material/software.

to the other responder: What setting would you recommend in noise reduction? I know this can double and quadruple the encoding time and I'm not sure I'm ready to go there.

Thanks

[Nelson37]

Is this "grid" composed of randomly assorted, moving squares or is it extremely regular, like looking thru a screen door?

Macroblocking rarely covers the entire screen, particularly at your bitrates and source type. What I call the "burlap bag effect" can result from upsizing or bad / improper codecs. It almost looks as though the screen was covered by a transparent cloth.

Signal loss or conversion may be a factor, I also get this on an old TV with a coax - to - antenna adapter, using PC Composite-out to VCR, then VCR Coax out to TV. SVCD looks terrible, while Sony PS2 thru VCR to same TV looks good for games and DVD. Same PC, same SVCD composite-out to new TV looks great.

Is this effect visible on PC when playing the original capture, the encoded MPG, or the authored disk? How about each stage thru the TV-out?[/u]

[wes2666]

extremely regular, like looking thru a screen door?

----More like this, but a screen door that wouldn't keep any flies out

Macroblocking rarely covers the entire screen, particularly at your bitrates and source type. What I call the "burlap bag effect" can result from upsizing or bad / improper codecs. It almost looks as though the screen was covered by a transparent cloth.

----That might be overstating it (as far as my problem goes anyway). The grid is mostly in the background and becomes less visible in darkly lit or high-motion scenes. How can I tell if I am upsizing or using the wrong codec? I'm encoding at 720 X 480 and I think that is the same fixed size that the Canopus captures at (If I'm wrong the capture is bigger 800x600. found two different quotes. Maybe for different models). Honestly I have no idea what codec I am using. Whatever is the default of TMPGenc I suppose.

Signal loss or conversion may be a factor, I also get this on an old TV with a coax - to - antenna adapter, using PC Composite-out to VCR, then VCR Coax out to TV. SVCD looks terrible, while Sony PS2 thru VCR to same TV looks good for games and DVD. Same PC, same SVCD composite-out to new TV looks great.

-------It's composite out from the laser disc player directly to the canopus (which feeds the avi file to my capturing software via firewire)

Is this effect visible on PC when playing the original capture,

----I would say no.

the encoded MPG,

----Having trouble with this at the moment. My Radeon "All-in-wonder" file player is experienceing some errors (says it is missing cpuinf32.dll and mplapx.dll) so I can't play back the MPG on my PC. I can still author them however.

or the authored disk?

------yes

How about each stage thru the TV-out?[/u]

------Can't do this without renovating my living room.

-------Did that give you enough information to go on?

[lordsmurf]

Can you post a 10-second sample that shows the error?

[wes2666]

Is there a guide to tell me how? I guess I need to split the mpg. What's the best program for this? and then where do I post it?

Thanks for your help.

[lordsmurf]

Is there a guide to tell me how? I guess I need to split the mpg. What's the best program for this? and then where do I post it?
Thanks for your help.

Upload it to your own space online. Post a link here.

Best program to chop a piece off is TMPGENC or WOMBLE MPEGVCR.

[AmuroRay]

I had a problem like this after I upgraded from DivX 5 to 5.1

I would watch the source avi's in Media Player : no visible problems. I would then encode them with my usual settings in TMPGEnc, and the resultant elementary streams had the "blocks" in seemingly random places. In fact - if I watched the TMPGEnc window closely as it was encoding - I could see the blocks.

I had no idea what was wrong - the only codec I had installed at the time was the official DivX 5.1 codec. I knew thanks to GSpot that these vids required DivX as opposed to XviD or some other avi codec. Then I noticed the DivX 5.1 "config" app in the start menu which apparently defaulted to having damn near every post processing effect ever turned 'on' . I turned all the post processing off, fired up TMPGEnc one more time, and there were no more blocks.

I don't know if this is what happened to you, but give it a shot.

-Jase

[wes2666]

Then I noticed the DivX 5.1 "config" app in the start menu which apparently defaulted to having damn near every post processing effect ever turned 'on' . I turned all the post processing off, fired up TMPGEnc one more time, and there were no more blocks.

-----------Hmmm. I'm not in fron of my computer so I can't explore this right now. Honestly I am fairly dumbs about codecs and I don't know what I am running for encoding. How do I determine this? and where to I look to see if post-processing are activated?

[AmuroRay]

-----------Hmmm. I'm not in fron of my computer so I can't explore this right now. Honestly I am fairly dumbs about codecs and I don't know what I am running for encoding. How do I determine this? and where to I look to see if post-processing are activated?

Use the DivX config app to turn the post processing on and off (on the start menu). As for the codecs, that's a bit tougher. My advice is to open your file with GSpot, and it will list all available, compatible codecs for playback. If you see any other codecs than the official DivX, take a shot at uninstalling them.

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable about determining the installed codecs on a system can chime in.

[Nelson37]

Doesn't sound like you have my old problem.

So you see this artifact playing the disk on the PC, but it is not in the original capture file. Good. Now you need to play the encoded MPG before authoring in order to isolate the problem. Ulead may very well be re-encoding your file, causing the problem.

Just burn the TMPGenc created MPG to a disk as a data file and see if your standalone will play it - many will. Otherwise, take it to another PC and try it there.

On your PC I would recommend getting another MPG player, ordinarily I would say re-install your old one but re-installing ATI software can lead to a real adventure. You should have something else on your PC that will play them, make sure and re-try all stages again as different progs can vary dramatically in playback.

[wes2666]

Thank you all. Lots to try here.

Is it possible I am just seeing the building blocks of an Mpeg-2 file? Does it look for repeated picture information in a grid pattern?

[mturcott]

This is a very interesting and timely post for me because I'm seeing the same thing. It's does kind of look like a "screen door" or a "burlap" effect when I play back DVDs I've authored. Here's my process in case this helps. I'm capturing 8mm camcorder video via an ADVC-100 solution using Scenalyzer as the capture software. I then encode to MPEG-2 using TMPGEnc and author to DVD using DVD-lab.

The effect is very light so not terribly noticable but I'm curious now about what's causing this. I'll have to experiment tonight and see where the artifacts get introduced and maybe find the solution. I'm encoding with 2-pass VBR using 4500 as the averate and 6500 as the max. This can't be Macrovision for me since these are home movies but not sure what at the moment. If I find anything, I'll post. I also use the CCE Basic encoder so I'll check to see if those have the same problem. Weird.

[wes2666]

Sounds like we use very similar methods. I don't have macrovision issues either because it was never used on laserdisc. Seems like the artifact must be introduced during the TMPGenc encoding process since you are using a different authoring program.

I won't be able to experiment with this for a week or so, but please let me know what sort of results you get.

Will

[AmuroRay]

wes2666,

I just reread your original post and realized your source vids aren't DivX. I hope I didn't lead you in the wrong direction.

On another note, you can use DVDLab to check your elementary video streams (.m2v) for the 'blocks' before you burn if ULEAD doesn't allow it.