Subliminal messaging

[Greg12]

I am doing a research program for my AP course. I need a program that can display text for 1/60,000th of a second. I'm not sure if Premiere can do that but this is a major grade for my class.

[Ejoc]

at 30fps, the best you could do is 1/30th of a second.

[The village idiot]

Convert each field to a numbered jpeg sequence. And then add your CG to the "pictures" that you want. Then covert back to moving video. Will TMPGEnc do this?

You could also put up the CG for 1 frame at 30fps. It will not be perceived, and you will achieve the desired effect. It also works at 24fps.

[holistic]

You could insert something like :

Ulead DVD Workshop - here is a link

or see if you can out do Disney


1/60,000th of a second that sure is subliminal. :P
1/30 best you will do.

][

[housepig]

where did the figure 1/60,000th come from? why that frequency, instead of 1/24th (1 frame of film) or 1/30th (1 frame of video)?

[overloaded_ide]

Just what the world needs, more sublimes!

[Ejoc]

Actually I was thinking, you could do 1/60th of a sec if you use interlaced video and put it in just 1 of the feilds.

[Greg12]

SO 1 frame per 30 won't be conciously percievable.

I dunno, my book said something about 1/60,000th of a second is the limit of human visual perception.

I'm doing this for research.

On this subject, i have an interesting moral question.

Is it right to use this as applied research on kids? One of my teachers said i should use this study to see if kids can be programmed to behave or to go to class. (our school is overcrowded and kids crowd the hallways and dont' go to class.)

i dunno bout that.

[BJ_M]

SO 1 frame per 30 won't be conciously percievable.

I dunno, my book said something about 1/60,000th of a second is the limit of human visual perception.

I'm doing this for research.

On this subject, i have an interesting moral question.

Is it right to use this as applied research on kids? One of my teachers said i should use this study to see if kids can be programmed to behave or to go to class. (our school is overcrowded and kids crowd the hallways and dont' go to class.)

i dunno bout that.

its not legal in the usa unless you notify them you are doing it first -

not that it maters ----->

Back in 1987 or 8 , a huge study was done on it at harvard i believe and proved conclusivly it didnt work at all ..

its was reported in " Scientific American " if you want to look it up ..

a lot of the fury surrounding it in the 50's was faked also ... or just mass hysteria over nothing (as people tend to do -- it even causes wars) ...

[housepig]

SO 1 frame per 30 won't be conciously percievable.

sure it will - but it depends on the observer.

one of the more famous uses of this was in "The Exorcist", where the demon face flashed for a few frames. Some people I've talked to never noticed it; others did once you pointed it out to them; I noticed it the first time I saw the film.

or "Fight Club" - the flashes of Tyler Durden. Or "Momento", when Guy Pearce appears instead of the other guy in the mental hospital. Some people will catch it, some won't. It will probably also depend on the amount of contrast - if you have video of a bright, sunny day and you drop a frame with heavy blacks in it, it's going to be (I'd think) more perceptable than a frame from the video where you've superimposed a subliminal message.

[The village idiot]

SO 1 frame per 30 won't be conciously percievable.

I dunno, my book said something about 1/60,000th of a second is the limit of human visual perception.

I'm doing this for research.

On this subject, i have an interesting moral question.

Is it right to use this as applied research on kids? One of my teachers said i should use this study to see if kids can be programmed to behave or to go to class. (our school is overcrowded and kids crowd the hallways and dont' go to class.)

i dunno bout that.

You really need to look up the law. There is a minimum duration that any image can be used. I think it is something like 6 frames. And at 1 frame out of 30 per second, no one will see it if you sort mask its appearance. do not use a contrasting color like purple on a green background. And do not use the CG by itself on a blank page. Super impose it on top of the existing video. Movie companies were said to use this technique to sell consessions products. Flash a picture of candy bar several times, and people will go to the lobby and buy it. So the story goes. Those would have been supered over the movie for 1 frame. And it is against the law in the US as has been said.

[The village idiot]

oh yeah

1/60000 is the minimum limit that you can perceive. Anything shorter will not be perceived at all.

[overloaded_ide]

Is it right to use this as applied research on kids? One of my teachers said i should use this study to see if kids can be programmed to behave or to go to class. (our school is overcrowded and kids crowd the hallways and dont' go to class.)

i dunno bout that.

NO, it is not right to use it for ANYTHING. First you start with "Don't Smoke", then "Don't Drink", then "VOTE for BILL", then "PAY MORE TAXES"

Does it work, YES. Don't know about movies/tv, but power of sugestion does work. Might only work on those with weak minds, but it does work!
This is just another form of brain washing is all. Sugest something enough and people start to beleave it. If the brain sees the message even though the eyes ignore it, then it will most likely work.

And as others have said, Illegal I am sure.

[Spicuzza]

This is an interesting thread.

Just for fun I just threw 5 pics on the VideoStudio timeline and timed them
(3 seconds-3 seconds-1 frame-3 seconds-3 seconds).

I can't consciously "see" the middle pic set to 1 frame especially the first time I watched. Even watching it multiple times I could not discern the pic but I could tell there was something different between how the pics were changing, but still even with study and knowing it's there at best it just looks like just a momentary clich.

I would say 1 frame or 1/30th of a second would work fine.

[BJ_M]

Is it right to use this as applied research on kids? One of my teachers said i should use this study to see if kids can be programmed to behave or to go to class. (our school is overcrowded and kids crowd the hallways and dont' go to class.)

i dunno bout that.

NO, it is not right to use it for ANYTHING. First you start with "Don't Smoke", then "Don't Drink", then "VOTE for BILL", then "PAY MORE TAXES" :evil:

Does it work, YES. Don't know about movies/tv, but power of sugestion does work. Might only work on those with weak minds, but it does work!
This is just another form of brain washing is all. Sugest something enough and people start to beleave it. If the brain sees the message even though the eyes ignore it, then it will most likely work.

And as others have said, Illegal I am sure.

it really doesnt work as i have said ... it was greatly studied ..


but what DOES work are far more tangable methods - which are greatly in use ... we use scent cannons all over the place , special encoded audio bits and lighting patterns -- the above are used in casino's and themed entertainment venues ..

for advertising - sex sells ..

to make that clearer ...

SEX SELLS

[JasonK]

it really doesnt work as i have said ... it was greatly studied ..

Right, the flashed words that you don't notice don't work. But "images" flashed on the screen do work. Think about that juicy steak dinner you see that suddenly makes you want to eat it when you might have not even been hungry prior to seeing it.

[Greg12]

so if i flash 'go to girls soccer" or "the game is october 12th" overtop a still image of soccer that is not part of the video, that would have no effect? or would it?


Also, is their any way for me the researcher to protect myself from being exposed? Should I not watch the video or would watching it on a computer protect me (in the same way watching the computer verson of pokemon Porgyon's Adventure protects people)?

Also what do u think is the best way to deprogram people. I was going to pass out a flyer after the game they were supposed to go to, and just tell them that what i did w/ a print out of the 1 frame images.

[FOO]

Put a brown paper bag over your head and never go out.

...and listen to Frank Zappa

... I'm the slime oozin' outta yer TV set

[lordsmurf]

None of it works. I studied this concept to some degree some years back as part of a communication course early on in college. Subliminal messages, whether text or image, do not work. Only 5 out of several thousand people may see it. And even then, flashing an image of a Coca-Cola will only make you thirsty at best, not make you wanna go buy a Coca-Cola.

Sublimal video only works with images. The mind cannot read that fast. And even then it is for one frame out of 24 frames. Smaller increments do not exist in a practical setting. An instance of anything greater would not be a tv screen or movie. It would be a high-speed projection device. Even a computer monitor can only display 90 or so frames per second.

Because of interlace, the subliminal would work even less on a non-progressive display. One frame is two images (fields) on a tv set, weaved together. It would require two fields tied to previous and next neighbors in the frame setup, and would be disruptive and easily noticeable.

You don't need to "de-program" people. That kind of thing barely works, and is a lost thought a few minutes later. You're not hypnotising them.

I've never heard of a law that limits framerates on video. I'd like to see that one. Anybody got a link?

I forgot the name of the technical terms from the outcome of the major study I researched (likely the same one BJ_M is aware of). I wish I could remember the exact term they used...

Anyway, the short of it is that only certain kinds of people will ever see it. They have to be open to it. Every person has their own perception and ability to observe such things. Ever feel like somebody is too close in "your space" when standing next to you? It's the same concept. Some people don't notice or care if somebody stands too close, others freak out.

...it's really bothering me I cannot remember the technical term anymore. I'm gonna have to dig out my old notebooks.

The "Electric Shock Porygon" episode from Pokemon had quickly changing red-blue video. The perfect combo of color and speed is in the spectrum of things that disturb an epileptic (or even those that are open to such things) and caused seizures. Plus it had a long duration. You're not doing this, not even close. I actually watched that episode, and I'm fine, no seizures here.

[FOO]

Only amateurs would use subliminal messages. If you really want
to program a human, you get 'em when they are young and
mentally defenseless, and ruthlessly pound your messages
into their heads for ten years or so.
Consult the professionals in some random tax free cult.

[JasonK]

No, that's the job of:

Government
Schools
The Media

hehehe

And deprogramming can be very difficult.

[lordsmurf]

No, that's the job of: The Media

That's not our line of work.

I work in the media, mostly newspapers to be specific. Photographer, writer.

The non-editorial content is just the facts. The Op-Ed page is one damned page (maybe two in large papers, with maybe half of tv and most magazines being Op-Ed).

I hate it when Op-Ed receives the recognition of being "the media".

The only reason tv news is full of Op-Ed is easy... they have 24/7 to fill with content. If nothing is new to report, just yap and share opinions and theories. FOX is the worst. We make fun of it. Often.

Magazines need to be sold and that's their gimmick: opinions. Some of it is still facts, but heavily laden in opinion.

And Op-Ed is "Opinions and Editorial" for those unfamiliar with journalist lingo.

I'm not offended, but the media gets an undeserved stigma.

[bvcproductions]

This is probably the most interesting topic I've seen on this board.

Anyway, I don't know if what I'm going to say would actually work, but here it is.

Insert your video in the timeline, (change the frame rate of the timeline if possible, to say 60FPS, assuming the video is at 30FPS), cut out one frame of the video, insert your message, or just overlay the message over one frame of the video, export the video at 60FPS (I know it would look terrible, and the sound would be messed up), restore the framrate to it's normal (or whatever you like). The video would be restored to the normal, and your message would be in basically for only half a frame, or in other words, 1/60th of a second.

In my opinion, I think that subliminal messages would work if your message (picture) was something that people see in their everyday lives, and everyone can recognise it without thinking. The Coca-Cola or Coke logos would work well, because everyone sees that couple of times a day (TV, billboards, supermarkets, fridge, etc)

If someone tries this, can you please tell me if it works (the message insertion)

[lordsmurf]

The technical term I couldn't remember the other day is "threshold".

Everybody has their own threshold for taking in data through the senses, perceived purposely or not.

Most people's threshold lies in a physiological and phsychological plane of existance that will be immune to such sublimal attempts.

The only really effective sublimal attack is by way of hypnosis. Sublimal advertising works no more than osmosis. Osmosis referred to as touching a book and learning its contents. While some people ARE able to assimilate data from indirect contact (including the method in which subliminal messages are carried), most are not.

Some people are entirely immune to all subconscious attack, including a resistance or outright immunity to hypnosis.

Study was performed in the mid 1990s at some big college. It may have been Columbia (NY), but I didn't check.

[JasonK]

No, that's the job of: The Media

That's not our line of work.

You have taken me out of context. I also said the schools and government, and the facts are always up for interpretation, PLUS.... who says what facts they are going to be told? Whose history? Whose polical correctness? These things shape those young minds on a daily basis. Now throw in all of the opinions that are tossed around.

I was surprised about your statement about FOX. That's about the only news channel I can stand watching. Take a look at The Factor sometime.

[FOO]

Government
Schools
The Media

My comment was about organized religion

[lordsmurf]

You have taken me out of context. I also said the schools and government, and the facts are always up for interpretation, PLUS.... who says what facts they are going to be told? Whose history? Whose polical correctness? These things shape those young minds on a daily basis. Now throw in all of the opinions that are tossed around......I was surprised about your statement about FOX. That's about the only news channel I can stand watching. Take a look at The Factor sometime.

Crash course in journalism:

Facts are facts. While they can be augmented and skewed his hidden opinion and agenda, any respectable news organization will refrain from doing so. Those that do not play ball are shunned.

The New York Times and FOX are being blasted (internally by the rest of the media) at the moment for placing ratings over proper coverage. Especially for their reporting style used these past few years.

I don't think I took you out of contest. I see a very definite misunderstanding about what the media should do, as was repeated in the post of yours that I quoted.

Who's history? Who's political correctness? The editor's and the publisher's. The is most prevalent by viewing the misdeeds of W. R. Hearst. However, in his time, he made up the news in order to give people what they want. These days, editor's use real news, and we have to make cuts on what is most interesting. There are only so many pages to fill (newsprint/magazine) and only so many minutes in the hour (tv/radio).

It is unfortunate that many people view the news as being "only bad info" or used in some malicious fashion. While the cute kitty cat story was interesting, the exploding train derailment is of higher concern. There is not a hidden agenda, for the most part (some people sometimes do, but they are rooted out in the end). There is no evil. It is simply information. Most of it is fact. A bunch of it is opinion. But often, they are labeled as such.

The media doesn't tell people what to think. We tell them what is going on in the world around them. They can and should make up their own minds. I do not ever recall I time where I tell the masses what to think, but I've written some damned good editorials and stories.

And be sure to not confuse entertainment with news. Entertainment really isn't the media. E!, Howard Stern, People and Cosmo, though televised/printed, it is not really news of any kind. If we count those as "media" then we might as well add comic books and cartoons too.

Subliminals are outpourings of the advertising industry. Luckily, they don't work. Otherwise, I'd surely house a house full of shit I'd never use (moreso than normal).

[Greg12]

I made the video and I can see but i wonder if this is because I am looking for them. My mom watched it and all she say was flashes of white once in a while.

[lordsmurf]

I made the video and I can see but i wonder if this is because I am looking for them. My mom watched it and all she say was flashes of white once in a while.

Colors and overall image must look similar to the non-sub images around it.

[Greg12]

only one kid who didn't know i had put the messages in their noticed