DVD Camcorder Questions ... ?

[touchdownfsu]

I am thinking about buying a DVD camcorder and have some questions...

1. Once you shoot your video footage on the mini DVD's, will you lose quality when you rip the VOB's to edit the video, and then reincode to DVD? If so, how much?

2. How long can you record at the highest resolution on the mini DVD's?

3. What is the compatibility for playing the mini DVD's on computers and standalone DVD players?

Thanks in advance,
Jason.

[ashtones]

What do you plan to edit with? Mpeg2 can be real tricky to edit. I don't think it worth it personally. It's much easier to edit DV AVI's and the quality is outstanding!

[touchdownfsu]

Sorry for the confusion.

Convert to avi, then edit, and then author back onto a DVD.

For the most part, I just want to be able to easily capture to DVD, but there will be times when I want to edit and author a disc, for example on special occasions. It's these reauthored discs that I am wondering about and how much video degredation will be accompanied with the conversion/edit/conversion process.

Thanks a bunch,
Jason.

[ashtones]

If you are only going to edit occasionaly then a DVD cam would be fine. My opinion though is that when you do want to edit it is going to be a mojor ordeal to. I'm not sure that you would suffer all that much image degredation but you will suffer some through the conversion. For me no way it's worth all the headache as I pretty much edit all my footage before I put it on a DVD.

[FulciLives]

I think DVD camcorders use the VRO format (DVD-RAM format) so if that is true (I'm not 100% positive that it is) then you should be able to import this to your computer and edit WITHOUT the need to re-encode but then I think you are basically limited to "cut" editing where you cut stuff out ... once you get into wanting to re-arrange clips or other more "adventuresome" things then forget it. You will have to re-encode and frankly that pretty much ruins the concept of recording to a DVD to begin with.

You really are better off with a Digital8 or DV format cam.

As far as "simple" editing of the VRO you would want to use a program called MPEG2VCR by WOMBLE MULTIMEDIA

This will allow SIMPLE edits without re-encoding.

But really please consider getting a Digital8 or DV cam instead. The MPEG format was not made for this kind of thing.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[touchdownfsu]

Some camcorders record onto mini DVD-R.

I don't know anything about this VRO format. I thought that the recorded DVD media would contain VOB's.

Could I rip with DVD Decrypter and then reincode to AVI with GordianKnot? Then I would be able to edit, encode and author.

Basically the only additional step is GordianKnot.

This would allow me to record video and not have to author every disc to play on a DVD player.

Thanks for the replies,
Jason.

[miki]

This is what i do with my hitachi dvd camcorder.most of the times i use the dvd ram disk so i can rip it and edit it with TMPGenc,Ulead's MediaStudio,MovieFactory or VideoStudio..etc. but sometimes i use the mini dvdr disk so i can play it immediately and directly to my dvd standalone player.
Im not sure about this, but i think the videos from your dvd camcorder are already in MPEG2 format. dont know much either about the degradation when you edit and burn to dvd, since i dont have captured videos from DV or Digital8 to compare from.
For your 2nd question, My camcorder can record 30minutes with the highest quality setting on one side(disk).

GoodLuck

[FulciLives]

Some camcorders record onto mini DVD-R.

I don't know anything about this VRO format. I thought that the recorded DVD media would contain VOB's.

Could I rip with DVD Decrypter and then reincode to AVI with GordianKnot? Then I would be able to edit, encode and author.

Basically the only additional step is GordianKnot.

This would allow me to record video and not have to author every disc to play on a DVD player.

Thanks for the replies,
Jason.

Jason this is REALLY not the way to go and it is not as simple as you make it sound. First you would have to convert to AVI which will take a lot of time then you would need to convert that back to MPEG-2 so you could create a standard DVD disc and that will also take a lot of time.

So basically you record in MPEG-2 then convert to AVI then convert to MPEG-2

This will result in poor quality when it is all done.

If you MUST do this then see if the DVD cam can record to DVD-RAM as that will be easier to deal with than if it records to a standard DVD-R or DVD+R because DVD-RAM uses the VRO format and it is still MPEG-2 but a bit easier to deal with. If you record to a standard DVD-R/+R that has VOB files like a REAL DVD then you can extract the MPEG-2 stream (and the audio stream) and edit it with MPEG2VCR thus saving all the re-encoding garbage but again you will be limited to pretty much "basic" editing and I'm not sure what kind of sound synch problems you might have (I wouldn't be surprised if it was a problem).

So again definately do not get a DVD cam unless it records to DVD-RAM but even then ... it isn't worth it if you need to import to a computer for editing.

Both Digital8 and DV cams use the DV codec which has quality that is probably as good (give or take) as what a DVD cam can do (quality wise) but DV is easy to transfer to a computer and edit.

As you can see myself and others are trying to tell you that MPEG-2 (DVD format) is ill suited for editing.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[hhamzeh]

FulciLives,
I have heard from several people that editing MPEG file will reduce the quality and using an AVI file is recomended for editing. Now from your post, I understood that this quality issue is due to re-encoding the MPEG file after editing the MPEG file. If this is the only reason for losing quality, some softwares like Ulead media/video studio use smart rendering feature which will re-encode the movie ONLY at the portion of the movie which movie has been edited like at the place that a transition has been used or a title has been placed. So, if the movie is over one hour, probably 95% of the movie is untouched. Is there any other reason behind the quality issue that I do not consider? thanks.

[ashtones]

One more note and this is subjective as 1 have never used a DVD cam. With DV AVI you won't have any macro blocks and overall the quality is very consistent. My camera has 500 lines of resolution. Im not real sure how that stacks up against DVD but my footage is always really good. That also depends on the optics of the camera of course. I have heard when panning or zooming the video is prone to breakup on the DVD Cam's. Now I read that when Hitachi first started releasing them and they very well have improved their mpeg encoder since then but like I said I have never used one.

[FulciLives]

FulciLives,
I have heard from several people that editing MPEG file will reduce the quality and using an AVI file is recomended for editing. Now from your post, I understood that this quality issue is due to re-encoding the MPEG file after editing the MPEG file. If this is the only reason for losing quality, some softwares like Ulead media/video studio use smart rendering feature which will re-encode the movie ONLY at the portion of the movie which movie has been edited like at the place that a transition has been used or a title has been placed. So, if the movie is over one hour, probably 95% of the movie is untouched. Is there any other reason behind the quality issue that I do not consider? thanks.

No no no

If you want to edit a MPEG-2 video then you are either stuck doing very simple cut editing with something like MPEG2VCR (no re-encoding) or you will have to re-encode the while thing if you want to do extensive editing.

The partial re-encode only applies to DV video when using advanced editing programs like some of the ones you mentioned. Even then you have to convert the entire DV project to DVD MPEG-2 but if you record to a DV cam and edit it then transfer to MPEG-2 DVD you will have higher quality.

Again what is the point of having a DVD cam when you need to re-encode it anyways (for editing purposes)?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[touchdownfsu]

Thanks for the input guys. I appreciate your advice.

The DVD-RAM (MPEG-2) idea sounds pretty good, but I won't know when I'm recording something I'll want to edit as opposed to just recording video to standard DVD format (no editing). So really, the DVD-R/DVD-RAM cam will cause me more work. Thanks for clearing this up.

Another question; Could I get a stand alone DVD recorder and hook my DV cam to it and let the recorder transfer my DV to DVD for me? How will the result look?

As you can tell, I'm trying to find the most time-efficient way to operate my camcorder and be able to easily view my footage. I will be, of course, editing some of the video, but for the most part, just having the footage on a disc will be fine.

Thanks a bunch,
Jason.

[FOO]

Fulci
The guy is right about VS7. I have tried it. It only
re-ecodes aound splices (as does mpeg2vcr) if you do it right.

Unfortunately it cannot handle soft pulldown

[freakyalbino]

I have a hitachi dvd cam, it does use vro. If your only looking to cutscenes together and divide move, that type of stuff the software that comes with the camera (dvd photo album and my dvd 4.4) will be fine, but if your looking to add stuff like swirly wods and stuff over the vid then your best extracting the vid from the dvd cam (it goes to strait vob) then converting to a lossless codec tempoarily. hell, convert it to the dv codec then back again once your done -)

[hhamzeh]

FulciLives,

I do not want to argue with you but some softwares such as Ulead video studio do NOT re-encode a file unless at the portion where an effect like transition, title, overlay has been placed. this smart rendering (partial encoding) applies to BOTH DV and MPEG. I have done this over 20 times by myself meaning I edited a MPEG2 file and the Ulead VS7 just re-encoded the file partially only at the place transitions were used.

On the other hand, I do agree with you that the quality of the final MPEG2 DVD made from a DV source is better than the quality of the MPEG2 movie captured by a DVD cam because it has the better source to start with. At this time, none of those hitachi DVD cams can directly capture / encode to a high quality MPEG2 file compare to the MPEG2 files obtained by softwares like ULead, MC or CCE encoders from a DV source.

Bottom line, I think DVD cam result in a less quality MPEG2 mostly because of the way they have been capture/encoded by the DVD camcorder not re-encoding the MPEG file after editing. Perhaps, someone with some experience with both DV and DVD cams can verify this matter.

Regards, Hans[/b]

[valian]

The Camcorders that record straight to mini disc, eg Hitachi, isnt that a standard dvd & if so then it would contain vob files?? If so then you can import these straight into a program like TMPGenc DVD Author & edit like that. Then add menus & burn back to dvd.

AM I correct about this as I am looking at buying one of these Hitachi beasts but at nearly $2k Aus they arent cheap!!!!

[ashtones]

I think the bottom line is if you plan to do nonr or only minor editing then the DVD cam is the way to go. But, if you plan to do exstensive editing such as fades effects and titles then DV cam is the way to go.

[MachineMan]

Sony has just come out with a DVD camcorder that writes to a DVD-RW. Not sure what bitrate or format.

[miki]

for simple editing like cut, join and transition fx, you can do it in the camcorder (Hitachi). before transfering to your PC.

[Innershield]

I was thinking about getting a dvd cam and I was looking at Sony's webite. It says that the cam does not have a firewire interface. So if you want to transfer video on to your pc you would need a dvd-rom. But how would you then transfer back to the dvd using the cam if there is no firewire. The reason I ask is because I have a digital8 and I wanted to transfer all of my tapes onto the minidvd.