Is CS2 CD for real??

[nightwing7]

After reading past posts on the topic of a new cd technology (CS2) that incorporates vcd for music videos and a normal cd format that will work in exististing cd players, i continue to wonder if it is real. There have been no links to web sites that inform us about this uncrackable cd,or there is no media coverage. And how can a cd ssupport 5.1 DTS. It just doesnt make sense. Do any of you agree


If it does exist it will be cracked in a week.

[Branroyal]

hi

I am the inventor of the CS2 CD, and belive you me... it is very much a reality! there are no links or web sites yet, but there will. this will be one of those things that just hit the store shelves and "shock" the world. I really rather have it that way. There are two elements incorparated in the CS2 CD structure that make it really imposible to faithfully disc copy. This is not some macrovision or sunncomm plextor cdrwin getaround either. Consumer CD machines do not allow sector reading beyond "lead out" points. The CS2 CD seriously uses this method as a way to prevent the mode2 image from playing that harsh white noise when played in older players. as in previous post, once commercially released (im working on it its comming) as a fellow hacker cracker, i welcome the attempt. just a little about the format and here is the spec sheet thats now going around the music biz:

Consumer Surround Sound Inc.
VCD SINGLE
And
5.1 VCD
Specs and Format explained

Consumer Surround Sound Inc. has extended the life of the popular Compact Disc, and will revolutionize the music business with two current patents pending of CD authoring. Format specs and capabilities are as follows:

VCD SINGLE
This is a patent pending CD product, which deliver a consumer friendly/error correcting way to include DVD playable video and CD audio on the same disc. This disc comply with the White Book 2.0 and the CS2 VCD SINGLE spec is as follows:

All video content for DVD player playback, and computer "Enhanced CD" like playback will always reside on track 1 with an absolute CD audio playback time of no more than 6 seconds (including track 2 pregap). Track 2 and forward will only contain CD audio with the option of 5.1 DTS digital surround sound starting at track 40 or later only after CD audio programming end. (As per CS2 inventor patent pending numbers 09/696,325 and 09/873705) Track 1 must contain at least 1 video file. Track 1 can include a lead in video sequence not limited to company logos and movie trailers. After video lead in, a menu can reside allowing only forward access to video content of which can go back to menu at any time user please, Lead in video content cannot be access from the menu point until disc is eject and inserted again. DVD player must include “Compact Disc Digital Video” logo to use this CS2 disc function.

Every CS2 formatted Compact Disc will include at least 1 acapella file for Sonic Foundry's ACID software. This acapella file will be delivered as an ACD extension ACID program session file, with acapella file already in place for consumer to start remixing. Optional folders of license free only loops can reside on disc.
An auto start window should open with insertion of CD into CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drive giving consumer easy access via selectable "buttons" to at least options of 1) Play video; 2) Install ACID Express; 3) REMIX IT!; 4) Help file

1) Play Video - This button will use PC default media player, with instructions for Windows Media Player users to press ALT+ENTER to toggle between full screen mode.
2) Install ACID Express - As per an OEM license from Sonic Foundry to Consumer Surround Sound Inc. This is a basic version of Sonic Foundry's revolutionary song creation software that allows easy loop based sequencing. Consumer friendly GUI. Sonic Foundry logos MUST accompany all CS2 logos on CS2 formatted disc. Consumers have an option to upgrade to a more option laced ACID program that allows them to bounce their version of the remixed song to a WAV file and burn their own CD of the song.
3) REMIX IT! - This is the trademark name of the CS2 format function of remixing the disc song single with the installed ACID software. When this button is pressed, the ACID session must start for consumer and allow instant remixing.
4) Help file-this is a basic short help file explaining proper use of the REMIX IT! Function.

Optional 5.1 DTS digital surround sound tracks can start only from track 40 on disc and/or forward. A DTS logo and explanation MUST reside on CD packaging with CS2 logos.


5.1 VCD
This disc complies with exact track 1 specs as VCD SINGLE. Track 2 and forward can ONLY contain 5.1 DTS digital surround sound as per before mentioned patent pending.


Consumer Surround Sound, VCD SINGLE, 5.1 VCD, CS2, REMIX IT! are all registered trademarks of Consumer Surround Sound Inc.
©2001
All rights reserved.

well thats all for now, please wait, its comming

Will Smash
Consumer Surround Sound Inc.
CS2

[adam]

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On 2001-10-04 08:57:49, Branroyal wrote:
hi

There are two elements incorparated in the CS2 CD structure that make it really imposible to faithfully disc copy. This is not some macrovision or sunncomm plextor cdrwin getaround either. Consumer CD machines do not allow sector reading beyond "lead out" points.
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But most pc dvdroms shouldnt have problem with that right? This same protection is used on playstation games and is easily bypassed by ripping the game with a dvdrom instead of a cdrom, of course for psx/PS2 games its futile due to other factors but still, isnt this form of protection easily bypassed?

Also you said there are two factors making it impossible to copy... What was the second one? Or did I just miss it?

[d4n13l]

Whats to stop hardware being made that will copy it?
The only basis of a CS2 CD not being copied, is that current hardware/software will not copy it: CS2 CD has a foundation of sand.

[Branroyal]

because there is multiple index in the mode2 track for CD player playback, this automaticly make an "illegal TOC" on the disc. Nero's "ignore illegal TOC" check box do not work. track 1 start index happends to start on a lead out point. how can a program copy binary data when their isnt one any? copying can only happen from the CS2 premaster to lbr. We dont belive in "cloaking" CD tracks from consumers. We should have a right to make mix CD's of songs we pay for. Disc copies of whole albums is killing the economy for artist and musicians. forget the record labels, the artist are not getting the little bit of money they do get to bootlegers of full dupped CD's. I think the CS2 CD will be a "midway" meeting of the things consumers will love, and the things that protect the investments of getting the CD done.

Will Smash
Consumer Surround Sound Inc.
CS2

[Branroyal]

[quote]
On 2001-10-04 09:26:41, adam wrote:
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But most pc dvdroms shouldnt have problem with that right? This same protection is used on playstation games and is easily bypassed by ripping the game with a dvdrom instead of a cdrom, of course for psx/PS2 games its futile due to other factors but still, isnt this form of protection easily bypassed?

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AH!!! _Place a playstation game in some CD players, and the noise generated will make your ears bleed. The difference is the CS2 CD is just a audio CD if a user do not have a DVD player and or PC. Copies in this manner will destroy the error correction element that makes the CD a CS2 CD. That is not a faithfull copy, and thus many DVD players do not read CDR's. Adam, Think of it as a CD that will have "GOTCHAS" if ever copied

[d4n13l]

I understand what you are saying, in that it is good for consumers: At least you understand what we want . But, I fail to see what is to stop new technology being developed to copy a CS2 CD. You cannot possibly guarantee that nothing will ever be able to copy it, based on todays technology. You cant test it against tomorrows technology, which is what hinders all copy protection methods. Stating that Nero (or any other CD copy utility) fails to copy a CS2 CD, is frankly completly irrelevant. So too is any current hardware. Todays software and hardware is designed to copy yesterdays CDs. An analogy would be a wooden block with a square hole: Only a square block of wood will fit the hole. What you have done is introduced a triangular hole, so the square will no longer fit. Is it too much to expect that someone will make a triangular piece to fit?
It may be an ingenius method, but at the end of the day, its just a collection of bits. A collection of bits that can be imaged and reproduced, all that is needed is a new generation of hardware/software. Would you agree on that?


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: d4n13l on 2001-10-04 13:33:47 ]</font>

[adam]

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On 2001-10-04 11:14:26, Branroyal wrote:
AH!!! _Place a playstation game in some CD players, and the noise generated will make your ears bleed. The difference is the CS2 CD is just a audio CD if a user do not have a DVD player and or PC. Copies in this manner will destroy the error correction element that makes the CD a CS2 CD. That is not a faithfull copy, and thus many DVD players do not read CDR's. Adam, Think of it as a CD that will have "GOTCHAS" if ever copied
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Ok but my point is that you could rip the mode 2 track with a dvdrom and re-author it as a vcd. As far as the audio, I don't know what kind of protection is involved there, it may or may not be copyable like the mode 2 track, though I'm pretty sure its not. You might not be able to make an exact copy of the CS2 CD but you may be able to rip each track independantly and author independantly, which for some people would be just as well.

The static you get when playing a psx disk in a cd player is caused because the player is trying to play it as an audio cd when it in fact isnt. If you authored the same data using your technology you would still get the hiss.

Anyway good luck on your format, I hope you do well with it.

[thxkid]

Remember when DVD 1st hit the scene they said thee exact same thing, can't be copied and the security can't be hacked.
There are students out there in colleges with nothing else to do but try to hack anything new coming down the pipe line, theres are great tax dollars to work!

[nfl2k2]

That's true, my cousin goes to Purdue university and him and his buddies are always figuring out stuff like hacking and piracy. Nothing better to do I guess.

[pacmania_2001]

Just look at all the other copy protection measures that have come and gone. Also if it cant be easily cracked then skilled ppl will just crack it then release it on the internet withouth the protection.

Also to branroyal what country are you from?

[d4n13l]

Dreamland.
LOL!
Sorry dude...

bad joke.
Stick with it. hehe

[Branroyal]

Hi,
I have just secured the website for the CS2 CD. Here you can find a simple page with the CS2 logo and function logos so you can see what is comming. Please keep in tuned while we build a site that will let you chat, 5.1 surround sound talk, and also buy DVD and 5.1 ss units. A little more time please....things are about to get very interesting

Will Smash
Ceo/President
Consumer Surround Sound Inc.
http://www.CS2.BIZ

[salvius]

What exactly is to prevent you from doing an analog copy?

[House de Kris]

OK, let me see if I understand this CS2 disc. It sounds like it has audio tracks for CD players, video tracks for DVD players, and data files for computers. My question is, can you play the CD audio tracks on a DVD player? I know several people who have ditched their CD players in favor of DVD players. From the description, it sounds like the DVD player will only see the content intended for DVD players. If so, do all the people who have simplified their lives now have to buy CD players to hear the audio tracks? Also, will this Acid program work on all computers or does it have support for only a limited type of computers and operating systems?

[Branroyal]

The great thing about the CD is the fact you can listen to CD tracks on your DVD player. While the DVD player is stopped, all you have to do is press the number "1" on your remote and the CD tracks will start. This is why the CD tracks are set up the way they are as described in the spec. We recomend PC's PII 350 and up with win 95/98/2000/nt/me. Mac OS 9.x is needed to veiw video and listen to music on a mac. Win XP and Mac OSX are not built the same way the traditional OS's were. The ACID verson is the 2.0 version which install very easy on any PC (not mac).
We use it instead of 3.0 because the ease of use and you have the choice to upgrade so you can bounce your remixed song to wav file for CD burning All we are doing is using a inside method to place accapella vox in the program at 44.1 16bit CD sound. I have a staff and relationships with known producers that will place hq 44.1 16bit loop files on each release. Their will be instructions to create a special folder on your C or alt drive for your CS2 loop folder collection. so new disc, new loops the point is to let you create your own version of a new single and make the quality sound studio done, not the crummy 8bit bs thats currently going on with other companies. The remix thing kinda happend as a thought to add something that would totally make the CS2 CD something of a phenom! Being a producer myself, i know how fun it is to make your own versions of songs that normaly you get bord with after awile.
Another great thing im currently looking into is the fact most DVD players can do firmware upgrades via a CD or DVD. This basicly mean this... ive already done the CS2 CD (singles only) with MINI DVD images But the problem is DVD players read CD's at 1x speed. They can easily program the firmware of the unit to do and reconize mini dvd images and thus tell the machine to read the CD (CS2 that is lol) at 4x speed. We can provide one or two music videos in true DVD 720x480 spec with our expert 5.1 surround sound mixing of the audio (the best in the industry by the way) along with the song(s) for your CD player. But of course this will only happen in time. For now, i will try my best to keep all video contrent in letterbox which by many suprise give quality that is flawless (no blocks and vibrant to the consumer's eye. I really dont have to take this thing further than i have, but i have a terrible workaholick attitude and quite frankly the music biz is leaving themselves so open and helpless, i just cant help but to bill gates em

Will Smash
CEO/President
Consumer Surround Sound Inc.
http://www.CS2.BIZ

[bravo]

i noticed that he didnt answer about the analog copy.believe me if i can hear it i can copy it.i did analog 2 disc long b4 i did digital cd copy,so i take a step backwards 2 get the job done.and who knows maybe i'll copy the music as DATA???

[Branroyal]

^ Well to be honest with you, you can still rip the songs of the CD. I know punishing people from doing that is not right and i will not restrict ripping. where the money is lost is the ease of making "disc copies" of albums for friends and the guys on the street thats selling the stuff for 2-5 dollars a pop. We give you an addition that make the CD special and just cant be "cloned" faithfully. If songs and mp3 are "killing the industry, then what stopped people from taking songs off the radio and bootlegging them? its not that, we need more than just a cd with songs on it! we have seen it all so far so something new is needed to boost in store interest again

[SAFEDISKKILLER21]

WHAT IS THIS, THE MACROVISION FORUM!?!?!? LAST TIME I CHECKED MOST PEOPLE DID NOT LIKE COPY PROTECTION.IT SHOULD BE CRACKED SOON-AND THATS A GOOD THING!!!!!
BANKRUPTCY IS NEAR. BEWARE.

[bravo]

maybe if they made music cd's with 60+mins of good music and lowered the price to under ten the problem would go away.it didnt happen in the past because u didnt pay fifteen bucks 4 a crap cd with three good songs on them at best.very few cd's have more than three real good songs.and the price gouging has got 2 stop.the public knows what it cost 2 make a disc.three four dollars tops???????/

[mysticgohan17]

This is interesting
http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/santana/912/aeminem2cd.html

[salvius]

No kidding, the problem here is the price. Honestly, it's a rip! Maybe instead of focusing on copy protection, they should figure out that the public is onto them.

[Branroyal]

^ that is interesting isnt it That disc is a current "spec" standard white book 2.0 with optional CDDA tracks done with philips toolkit. that 2nd disc have a couple of problems with it.... 1) the warning track is there because they are telling you " please skip to track 6 for CD play, playing tack 2 to 5 may cause damage to some CD players". playing back CD rom data in some CD players will give of a harsh noise, that will damage your ears! the commercial market (thats a bootleg disc by the way) will not support this form of disc because of lawsuits waiting to happen. 2) the average consumer will not have the patience to skip past tracks to get to the music. this disc is designed for VCD player/DVD player playback only. once in the player, you can sellect the CD tracks from a menu. this kind of VCD is not promoted for CD player playback. CS2 CD's do not have these problems and theres no skipping to get to CD tracks, also no harsh noise to break your ear drums. Great observation of the link, but there is a reason why this kind of disc has not gone commercial since the ability to author it has been easily possible since 1993. by the way, i think easy cd creator can even make a copy of that disc, useless.

[kinneera]

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because there is multiple index in the mode2 track for CD player playback, this automaticly make an "illegal TOC" on the disc.
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The TOC is just data itself. It is not difficult for binary copy programs to simply copy the TOC without bothering to verify whether it is valid or not.

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track 1 start index happends to start on a lead out point. how can a program copy binary data when their isnt one any?
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Last time I checked, the leadout is data: just a bunch of 0s of a specified length. Again, this is only a matter of whether the software cares whether the layout is technically legal. There is nothing about it that can't be circumvented...with relative ease.

[todd-alaska]

cs2 will be like anything else, broken within 6 months tops.
Bran royal will make his money on the idea and we'll be copying them just like we copy stuff now.

Bran just dont release demos to the public until you get $$$ in the form of a big time contract wouldnt want it cracked before you get paid

I hope it goes well for you though.

[Kdiddy]

ok tried my best to follow, but the jist is that you can still ripP the information off the disk correct??, so CD info can still be turn into mp3, DVD info can still be converted to VCD/ripped off the disk, & PC info can be still be copied...there just is no straight CD-to-CD copy, a la, DVD media with CCS/Macrovision portection....is this right??

well if the above is right, then whats to stop someone from ripping all info off, and re-authoring??? If a bootlegger is making that much money off what he/she is doing, then this process I dont feel would bother them much.

Im in agreement that high prices & low quality songs is the problem for the music industry, they are too busy trying to find the next greatest thing, that they are running sweat shops these days and just throwing junk on the market, then get upset when it doesnt sell. I honestly am thankful for mp3 internet bootleggers, save me a lot of cash on albums there were junk. The ironic part though, its all about who you ask, some surveys say sales have drop while others say in fact sales are the same if not climbing.

[therick]

KDiddy, I think you nailed this one. The tracks can still be ripped, and who doesn't love ripping off the music industry? I mean the music industry absolutely rapes everyone...the artists AND us. Why do you think everybody has one hit and opens up their own label? Because no artists make the money they should...except for guys like Bob Dylan or any other guaranteed seller. Nope, I try not to buy from big labels at all. I put my money into the smaller labels that are putting out excellent music.

[leera2]

ALL THAT IS DIGITAL IS COPYABLE

[Ruthless]

How about this. Is it possible to create a Hybrid DVD that is playable on both a CD and DVD player? This would allow for both CD playable music and creating an album full of music videos for playback on DVD. I realize this is not exactly on topic, but how cool would it be to program MTV or VH1 content to your taste.

[AntnyMD]

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On 2001-12-12 08:47:43, Ruthless wrote:
How about this. Is it possible to create a Hybrid DVD that is playable on both a CD and DVD player? This would allow for both CD playable music and creating an album full of music videos for playback on DVD. I realize this is not exactly on topic, but how cool would it be to program MTV or VH1 content to your taste.
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The American pressing of the film Book of Shadows: Blair Witch 2 was a sort of hybrid disc. It was a double-sided disc, one side a DVD containing the film; the other side a CD containing the soundtrack album.