DVD nibble copier

[AlfB]

Years ago, there were things called nibble copiers that would copy disks byte by byte and did not care about the source format. There were many purposes behind this but from my point of view, the main one was that the specifics of the disk (format, encoding, protection etc) did not matter because you just made an exact copy of the source not caring what the data was. Has anyone ever seen this type of utility for DVDs? I realize one gotcha is that the size of DVD-Rs (DVD -9 vrs DVD-5 etc) is sometimes smaller than what you might be copying but if that is not the case, it should work and there should not be a way to stop it from working on any DVD.

[Snake42]

I remember these, I had some for my Commodore 128. I had TWO of the 1541 (?) disk drives. Made backing up a lot easier. And does this post show I'm getting long in the tooth or what!

[FOO]

I don't think that works. I think there is an area on a stamped
DVD that cannot be duplicated on a DVDR which is needed for
decryption. ( I think, I'm not sure )

[David K]

AlfB,

It is an interesting theoretical issue, but De-encryption software for DVDs are so universally available and efficient, why would one want to make copies of DVDs with copied encryption?

For extreme convenience, try the program AnyDVD which just hovers in the background and de-encrypts on the fly. You can use it in combination with any other program. It's like there is no encryption.

[tompika]

There are pre-recorded informations on DVDRs
that won't match the original ones

[AlfB]

The reasons why it might not work are reasonable and are basically what I thought. But to answer one of the questions, the reason why is that the thought process to begin with was to make an exact copy of the disc such that everything looked the same, encryption and all. This way the DVD player does not know that the disc in not an original and therefore plays like the original. If the the copy disc is a complete blank (no preburn data to say that the disc is different) and with the capability to copy the same amount of data (no difference between sizes of discs ie DVD-5, DVD-9 etc) theoretically you could make a mirror image and that would be playable and not be distinguishable from the original. If what is postulated here is true, there are differences you cannot get around such as the preburn info on a DVD-R. In the end, my thought was to try and get an exact copy that a player cannot tell the difference from the original disc. This is basically what a nibble copier does.

[Gurm]

DVD-R's don't support CSS. So you could very well copy the data over but the player wouldn't be able to read it because there IS data (decryption keys, etc.) stamped on the source disc that can't be read.

In general, the problem you're describing is MUCH more difficult on a DVD or CD than on a floppy disc, due to the way data is written to the DVD/CD. Instead of single magnetic points which are either charged (1) or uncharged (0), you have pits and lands. All of them are "burnt" (which is to say different from the unrecorded area of the disc) but the pits are of course deeper than the lands.

The problem here is that readers and burners all have a variety of methods of reading/burning and you run into esoteric loopholes in the standard which are exploited by copy protectors. For example, many DVD/CD burners are incapable of writing certain regular patterns. Virtually all DVD burners to date don't write in RAW mode at all, much like early CD burners. It wasn't until relatively recently that perfect copies of CD's were possible, because early burners didn't use RAW mode at all, so they couldn't replicate all patterns on the disc... and all a copy protector had to do was put down a pattern that burners couldn't replicate.

This hasn't happened for DVD's yet but I don't think we're far off, given the prevalence of piracy nowadays.

- Gurm

[FOO]

Take a blank DVD R and run DVDinfo (or whatever) You
get some data. How can this be ? Its on a BLANK disk.
Do you think you can duplicate that ?
There are areas on a pressed DVD that cannot be duplicated.

Gurm, I don't get what you mean by DVDs don't support CSS ?

Whatever: I think what you means is there is data on the stamped DVD
that can be read but can't be put on a DVDR because it's a non-writeable
place.

[Gazorgan]

Woh...C64 flashbacks!!!!! 2 drives copying with no computer hooked up, those were the days.......

As far as copy a DVD to a DVDR, there really isn't any point. If your DVD Player won't read it (which it won't, that would be way too easy....), there's no point in doing it. You computer is a completely different story. Anything that can be read off the disk can be imaged, mounted and used. Any copy protection scheme relying on non-standard patterns on the media can be defeated, just as CSS can be defeated (I mean the keys on on the disk....).

All of this is really funny. I remember 'back in the old days' when the first thing you did was copy you disks, put them away, and worked from the copy. This was standard practice and was in the manufacturers instructions! And today??? Sorry, your outta luck, please spend $599.95 for another disk you already own!

[Gurm]

Foo,

It is my understanding (don't quote me, I'm not the final authority by any means) that DVD-R's (recordables) don't support CSS. I could be wrong, there are purportedly programs that will re-CSS a VIDEO_TS folder.

- Gurm

[steptoe]

Yeah, I remember nibble copiers, just absolute ages, and ages

From my C64 days, had some disks that HAD to be nibble copied


But, you're right, all you need is a ripper that decrypts on-the-fly, but I think I know what you are looking for, a way to copy a DVD to a DVD-R which will make a perfect copy, with protection and everything, so for all intent and purposes, as far as the DVD player is concerned, it IS an original

Without having to rip it first, then burn it again, but if a disk is actually a DVD-9, then I believe the answer is no, as this is technically two DVD-5s , until somebody produces a DVD-9 burner, and you have a very large bank account

[Gazorgan]

If you can fake the DVD info on the non-burnable inner ring part, then you could do it. You'd have to match the CSS keys, so it would be specific only to certain keys. Yes? No? Maybe?

[Gurm]

I was generalizing with that key business. I have no idea how CSS really works, since I've never bothered to analyze the DeCSS code.

- Gurm

[BJ_M]

http://www.arrowkey.com/cddvd_diagnostic.html

CD/DVD Diagnostic will extract bit for bit anything on a dvd - even unreadable and bad burns and other such things that go bump in the night ..

should be added to tools section ..

[RabidDog]

just becuase it can be read doesnt mean it can be burnt.. with todays drives...

[Gurm]

Correct. The issue isn't reading. 99% of today's drives can READ in RAW mode. The issue is WRITING. There are NO RAW DVD writers on the market that I'm aware of, and precious few TRUE RAW CD writers.

- Gurm

[BJ_M]

Correct. The issue isn't reading. 99% of today's drives can READ in RAW mode. The issue is WRITING. There are NO RAW DVD writers on the market that I'm aware of, and precious few TRUE RAW CD writers.

- Gurm

pioneer 201 authoring dvd burner ..

[Gurm]

It'll write ERRORS?

Seriously?

I'd like to see some independent corroboration of that. How many sheep does it get from Elby? Can it overcome the latest SecuROM and SafeDisc?

And that's just for CD... how do we even KNOW that it'll do bit-for-bit RAW on DVD's? We have no way to test it yet, that I know of.

- Gurm

[BJ_M]

It'll write ERRORS?

Seriously?

I'd like to see some independent corroboration of that. How many sheep does it get from Elby? Can it overcome the latest SecuROM and SafeDisc?

And that's just for CD... how do we even KNOW that it'll do bit-for-bit RAW on DVD's? We have no way to test it yet, that I know of. ;)

- Gurm

they are 4000$ , they don't write cd's and they are for authoring dvd's for pressing (dvd single side only - dual side requires DLT) .. since they are for mastering the point is they cannot have any bit errors period or its a failed burn (they also only burn at 1x speed) ..

I use one - great burner for what it is made for .. (its scsi also btw)

[Gurm]

Not really the same class of machine then, is it?

And if it can't burn errors then it isn't really RAW now is it, it's just very precise.

- Gurm