SuperBit = Super Empty DVD

[poopyhead]

my personal experiences with SuperBit DVDs are limited...but so far, it seems that these SuperBit DVDs waste a whole lot of space on the dual-layers.....

i know that even at the theoretical DVD max bitrate of 9.8 mbit/s, that shorter movies will not fill up DVD9 completely....however, even with both DTS and DD 5.1 audio tracks.....i've seen SuperBit DVDs leave 2+ GB left on the DVD.

that's a lot of "wasted" space for a "format" that's more expensive than regular versions....anyone know why SuperBit doesn't put in any significant amount of extras to fill the empty space??? i know the crux of their advertisement is high bitrate, digital transfers..but when a more expensive version of a movie leaves 2+ GB left on a DVD9 without adding any extras, special features, etc... seems like rip-off

[freestyler]

Higher movie bitrates and surround sound are the features touted with these discs. both 5.1 dd and DTS sound, with dd 2.0 and audio commentaries are very often, or almost always omitted. hollywood doesnt care much about filling up any disc as long as they arbitrarily feel that the bitrate has been raised significanly and their work is done.

always keep in mind the video bitrate threshold of about 6-7 mbps and when you include the surround sound audio rate in the equation, these dvds are closely maxing out their playability with regards to the 10 mbps dvd spec limitation.

[freestyler]

Had trouble editing my post, my browser is acting up

http://timefordvd.com/feature/Superbit.shtml

there is a link with a bit more info on superbit

-freestyler

[poopyhead]

yep...took a look on that website:

By omitting bonus materials, running audio commentaries, other audio (Dolby Digital 2.0) and language (e.g., French or Spanish) soundtracks, extra data capacity is freed up for the higher video bit rate, DTS 5.1 and Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound tracks.

the weird thing is that they make it sound like they can ONLY fit the higher bitrate, digital transfer with DTS and DD 5.1 IF AND ONLY IF they omit any extras, DD 2.0, foreign audio, and director's commentary. well, with about 2 GB of empty space on the DVD9, they can surely fit an extra couple of audio tracks...considering DD 2.0 is typically no more than 300 MB. that'll even leave room for some extras....

[freestyler]

Probably doesn't fit their business model dude. If they do it to one... you know how that goes.

Higher transfer fees, audio processing fees, encoding fees, and other business elements come into play here. There's gotta be a market for this stuff and I think it just might be down and dirty technophiles who really want visual and audio quality without clutter

[crazeplaya]

With superbit DVDs they should always encode the video at the highest possible bitrate. For a 90 minute movie with DTS and DD5.1 the video stream should be at about 8000kbs to fill the DVD. As most films are at least 90mins long they should always be filling the DVD. Leaving 2GB of space seems like a huge con to me

[poopyhead]

Higher transfer fees, audio processing fees, encoding fees, and other business elements come into play here.

well...these do sell for higher prices than regular versions of the same movies...so, that would partially offset the increase in fees... if they're not gonna increase the bitrate any further to completely fill up the DVD9 (perhaps, they can't increase the bitrate further for technical reasons), then they should add some extra audio tracks at the least...i highly doubt that would create extra clutter.

-------

@crazeplaya,

even though the theoretical DVD max bitrate is 9.8 mbit/s, not all DVD players can handle it...so it seems like SuperBit encodes only 6-7 mbit/s.

and yes, the SuperBits i've seen leave between 1 - 2 GB empty on the DVD9

[crazeplaya]

If it is true that some DVD players can't play DVDs at the maximum bitrate then they should not be marketed as DVD players because they can't play DVDs properly

[freestyler]

Bah, like I said dude, their business model fits their stupid "surround sound" gimmick. I don't see how an extra audio track is gonna be 5.1, even directors commentary is dd 2/0. They wanna stick to surround, obviously - why re-release a disc?

that's a lot of "wasted" space for a "format" that's more expensive than regular versions....anyone know why SuperBit doesn't put in any significant amount of extras to fill the empty space???

Read above "movie and surround sound" gimmick, format is still dvd

when a more expensive version of a movie leaves 2+ GB left on a DVD9 without adding any extras, special features, etc... seems like rip-off

Apply this logic to all movies and you won't be buying many. That's like saying "Hey I ain't getting 4.3 GB of jam packed video goodness out of my dvd - what a ripoff" or saying "What a ripoff, my music cd ain't 74 minutes"
I do like your logic and that would greatly benefit the consumer, but that's often hard to come by. If extras were included, they'd have to be remastered and re-encoded and the sound would have to be mixed 5.1 and DTS which would add to the cost again, studios pay good money to have these things authored.

I can tell you feel ripped off or in other ways cheated by these discs. The only solutions I can recommend to studios are to include a some extra "silent" dts and dd 5/1 audio tracks for some killer silence, or maybe for you to score used SuperBit discs to offset the costs between the regular movie and this enhanced version. Couldn't resist a bit of humor

-freestyler

[vhelp]

I think that they are following the same basic principles as standard DVD's.

Just look at some of your standard dvds and note the bitrtae for each.
Now, figure on a thumb-rule, that they probably use. A scale, if you wish.
They apply the dvd process, based on this scale. So, weather the standard
dvd process for say, movie title, "Superman" is only 6.7 maxed out, and
w/ 20% space left over, the next standard dvd, say movie title, "Blue Streak"
will fill to 12% etc. Call the scale factor, 5

So, given the above, they are probably using this same scale, but only
modified for use w/ new higher standard, dvds - - SuperBit !! So, the scale
factor would probably be something like 7, for SuperBit.

That's the only logical conclusion that I can come up with, that explains your
noticable scenerio

Note, the numbers above, are purely fictional, on my part.

Any comments ??

Have a good day all,
-vhelp

[Gurm]

Do the math. If the maximum stream size is 8000kbps (it ISN'T, really... but let's assume that it is) then you get:

1000 kBps

or 60,000 kBpm

or 58.6 MBpm

which is 3516MBph

or 3.43 GBph

So a two hour movie STILL won't come close to filling a DVD-9.

And as discussed before, they can't REALLY peg out the DVD format, because they advertise that it works in ALL players. As for the players that don't handle the upper-extreme of the format not being "real" DVD players... yeah, you're probably right. But such is life.

- Gurm

[SLK001]

A DVD player always reads a DVD at the MAXIMUM bitrate - ie, data is read off a DVD at a constant 26.16 Mbps. Any excess data is simply discarded, then reread when needed. So any DVD player, if it meets the DVD standard, will be able to play the super-bit DVDs.

Superbit releases are simply a marketing ploy to increase the revenue stream.

[Laddydaddy]

Superbit releases are simply a marketing ploy to increase the revenue stream.

Exactly! Just more fluff without substance from the movie moguls of Hollywood.

[Gurm]

Bullcrap.

Sorry, but it just isn't true. Let's stick with this "math" thing, shall we? I know it's hard, most of you probably can't do it, but hey...

------------------

A DVD is 9 GB. That's 9,216MB, or 9,437,184KB.

9,437,184KB is 75,497,472Kb

Are you with me so far? Now, let's say you wanted your average 90-minute movie to fill this space. Ok? That's...

838,681 Kbpm, which is 13,981Kbps.

That is WAY over the DVD spec's maximum of 9800Kb/sec. combined. 50% over, in fact.

Which part of this is eluding you?

And DVD players read at 1x. That's 1.35MB/sec, which is to say 10.8Mbit/sec. MAXIMUM.

Your 25Mbit/sec. number is absurd (it's 2.4x, not 1x), your understanding of DVD's is absurd, and I don't understand what's eluding you.

NOW, add to this that MANY MANY MANY DVD PLAYERS DO NOT REALLY SUPPORT 9800Kb/sec. The actual supported data rate is MUCH closer to 8000Kb/sec. 8 megabits. That's it. COMBINED AUDIO AND VIDEO.

It's not a marketing gimmick. It's just simple math. Superbit is as high a bitrate as you can go.

Why don't they include EXTRAS?

THAT... is the marketing gimmick. ROFL. THAT is where they're getting you to own both versions of the movie. Not the superbit format itself.

- Gurm

[adam]

No its not bullcrap, its accurate information.

Taken from DVD Demystified.

Maximum video bit rate is 9.8 Mbps. Raw channel data is read off the disc at a constant 26.16 Mbps. After 8/16 demodulation it's down to 13.08 Mbps. After error correction the user data stream goes into the track buffer at a constant 11.08 Mbps. The track buffer feeds system stream data out at a variable rate of up to 10.08 Mbps. After system overhead, the maximum rate of combined elementary streams (audio + video + subpicture) is 10.08

ALL DVD players are required to be able to read video encoded at a constant bitrate of 9800kbits, as long as the total combined bitrate is less than 10.08Mbps. That is what the spec allows, and in order to be licensed as a "DVD" player, the hardware must adhere to the spec. I have never heard a single report of a player having problems with bitrate in this range and if any such players do exist then they are clearly defective. The reason the max is lower than 9800kbits is because you still have to take audio bitrate into account so even though a video only track could use 9800kbits, with audio you are only going to be able to use a max of (10.08-audio bitrate). You are right Gurm, the actual max bitrate you will see on SuperBit DVDs is closer to 8Mbps, but that is NOT combined bitrates that is video only.

Are you perhaps thinking of burnt media instead, which is known to cause problems at high bitrates on certain players? This has nothing to do with the hardware's conformance to spec, its simply a result of poor dvd-/+r/w support.

[dvdnew]

Gurm: where did you get those numbers? I can't find that info. I know DVD-5 is only 4.7(market)GB or 4,700,000,000 bytes (around 4.38 real GB), so are you sure DVD-9 is real 9GB?

Anyway, I guess the SuperBit product is only the movie with higher bitrate, if some SuperBit can hold extras is other thing, they will not put extras because that will tell the consumer of that product that the movie is not as good as it should be without those extras, they are sending the message that if you want extras buy the normal DVDs if you want great video buy the SuperBit without any extras.

[adam]

A DVD-9 is not quite 9 gigs.

The capacity of a dual-layer disc is slightly less than double that of a single-layer disc. The laser has to read "through" the outer layer to the inner layer (a distance of 20 to 70 microns). To reduce inter-layer crosstalk, the minimum pit length of both layers is increased from 0.4 um to 0.44 um. To compensate, the reference scanning velocity is slightly faster -- 3.84 m/s, as opposed to 3.49 m/s for single layer discs. Longer pits, spaced farther apart, are easier to read correctly and are less susceptible to jitter. The increased length means fewer pits per revolution, which results in reduced capacity per layer.

[Gurm]

Fine, we can adjust the numbers down a bit but still...

And the reason the players can't handle 9800Kbit/sec. is NOT that they can't READ that fast, but that their chips/algorithms can't decode MPEG with a bitrate that high. Why? Cheap components.

My argument is simply that people who say "oh, superbit sucks because they COULD have made the bitrate higher" are high on crack.

- Gurm

[SLK001]

Thanks, Adam (I had a feeling that this would cause a controversy!).

@Gurm: 9.8Mbps is not particularly fast for a decoder to operate. Can you back up your rants with the name of a DVD player that cannot read a DVD recorded in "super-bit"?

[crazeplaya]

@Gurm

Just admit that you are wrong and stog trying to pass off unsupported information as fact

[adam]

I don't think Gurm is saying that some dvd players can't play Superbit DVDs, only that Superbit DVDs have arbitrary bitrate limits, lower than what the standard allows, due to the limitations of some hardware players. All I can say is that I have never seen any evidence that this is the case, and it really would defeat the entire purpose of IEC specification. The specs set the MINIMUM requirements of the playback device. In order to use the name "DVD" player you must have a license, and your hardware player must these minimum requirements.

If there are any players out there with this very major limitation, then they either are not officially licensed or shouldn't be, because they will not be able to play many of the commercial DVDs on the market. Any commercial DVD that has less than 3 audio tracks, whether its a Superbit DVD or not, will almost surely have video bitrate peaks above 8500kbits.

[vhelp]

hay Gurm.. ... ... :P

You crack me up !!




-vhelp ...

[jarvis1781]

my personal experiences with SuperBit DVDs are limited...but so far, it seems that these SuperBit DVDs waste a whole lot of space on the dual-layers.....

i know that even at the theoretical DVD max bitrate of 9.8 mbit/s, that shorter movies will not fill up DVD9 completely....however, even with both DTS and DD 5.1 audio tracks.....i've seen SuperBit DVDs leave 2+ GB left on the DVD.

that's a lot of "wasted" space for a "format" that's more expensive than regular versions....anyone know why SuperBit doesn't put in any significant amount of extras to fill the empty space??? i know the crux of their advertisement is high bitrate, digital transfers..but when a more expensive version of a movie leaves 2+ GB left on a DVD9 without adding any extras, special features, etc... seems like rip-off

I concur.

[Gurm]

I'm not "wrong", I just pulled some numbers out of thin air. Even adjusting for the smaller size of DVD9, you STILL can't fill it with your average 2 hour movie.

And yes, Adam is correct - I'm not saying that there are DVD players that can't play Superbit. It's specifically engineered so it CAN be played. I'm saying that Superbit is PURPOSELY bitrate-limited to AVOID such problems. I haven't personally found a DVD player that is limited in this way, but I bet a PS2 might be - and there are other threads on here (which I can't find since the search function is disabled ATM) which detail and corroborate the fact that there ARE players which don't handle high bitrates.

As for compliance with the DVD spec - it's well known that there are a LOT of DVD players, some from major manufacturers like Sony, which simply don't adhere to the spec. It's something that companies pay lip service to and which is never checked.

LOTS of DVD's don't run on lots of players. The Matrix (original) just will not run on a lot of 1st gen players - even the nice ones. Contact won't run on a lot of 1st gen players. That's just the way it is.

- Gurm

[poopyhead]

My argument is simply that people who say "oh, superbit sucks because they COULD have made the bitrate higher" are high on crack.

errr....ya

anywayz, what i was saying that the empty space on the DVD9 could be filled with extra audio tracks (i.e. foreign language, director's commentary)...and extra features..

if there's gonna be 2 GB left on the SuperBit...and they can't increase the bitrate of the movie any higher..then the empty space needs to be filled with extras and special features...to justify the increased cost of the "SuperBit" version.

[Gurm]

Now THERE I agree with you.

But instead, they've made "SuperBit Deluxe" or some such nonsense, and put all the extras on a SECOND DVD, which is also nearly empty because the extras were only a couple gigs to begin with. Bleh.

- Gurm

[poopyhead]

But instead, they've made "SuperBit Deluxe" or some such nonsense, and put all the extras on a SECOND DVD, which is also nearly empty because the extras were only a couple gigs to begin with. Bleh.

WTF is that??? SuperBit deluxe??? when they don't even fill up the space on the original SuperBit DVD...heh...

screw Freddy vs. Jason...

evil vs. evil ---> MPAA vs. RIAA....who's gonna win !!!???

[presto]

What a rip-off! I just bought some sneakers and the box was half empty. I mean just because the box said "One pair of sneakers", there's no reason the company couldn't have filled that space with some shoe laces, socks, candy etc. Cheapskates.

My point is; Superbit isn't a rip-off, it's just a product you're not interested in. They put on the disks exactly what they say is on the disks. Why should there be any more?

[Greenspock]

All I gotta say is, if there's room... gimme my extras!

If its just the directors comments at a high bit rate, great. But hand'em over!

[poopyhead]

What a rip-off! I just bought some sneakers and the box was half empty. I mean just because the box said "One pair of sneakers", there's no reason the company couldn't have filled that space with some shoe laces, socks, candy etc. Cheapskates.

sorry...but this is a horrible analogy...

a true analogy would be if the sneakers didn't come with any shoelaces at all...

it's not explicitly stated that the sneakers come with any shoelaces at all, but it's implied that it should come with them

-----

and in this case...SuperBit costs more than regular versions... it's not like these costs the same... when you pay more for something....yet no extras are included on the DVD (especially if there's plenty of room for them after the extra bitrate has been pumped into the main movie)...there goes money well spent