SuperBit = Super Empty DVD

[Supreme2k]

I remember reading this thread back in ought three, and not getting into it. I do have to say that the shoe analogy is the biggest crock of shit since the "downloading music/movies/software is the same as physically breaking into someone's house, stealing everything, then raping the women*" argument.


And I still have yet to see a "standard" for superbit





*threw that one in for effect

[gshelley61]

I think the whole SuperBit thing got some play early on because so many DVD's were poorly encoded, but laden with lots of space-robbing extras. The Superbit version of Fifth Element is a fantastic looking DVD (videophiles consider it to be a reference example of a high quality film-to-DVD transfer). Now that the extra features on most DVD releases are on a second DVD, many new commercial DVD's are encoded at a fairly high bit rate anyway. Mystic River has a pretty large file size, for example... certainly comparable to the so-called SuperBit releases.

[Gurm]

Absolutely. I think that Superbit was a gimmick that has pretty much run its course. There aren't too many new Superbit releases.

It will always have a niche market with those people that want the ABSOLUTE BEST DVD transfer, but I fail to see how, for example, the Lord of the Rings Extended Editions could possibly be IMPROVED by a "Superbit Treatment".

- Gurm

[gshelley61]

Yes... the LOTR DVD's are excellent. Amazing PQ. I've got a Bravo D1 720p/1080i upscaling player hooked up to the DVI input on a Samsung 46" DLP - those LOTR discs have some of the best looking images I've seen that are not HD resolution to start with.

[presto]

I do have to say that the shoe analogy is the biggest crock of shit since the "downloading music/movies/software is the same as physically breaking into someone's house, stealing everything, then raping the women*" argument.

Like all analogies it is provided to illustrate a point. It has nothing to do with anything being the same as anything else.

In this case it illustrates this argument: "If someone sells you a product and they provide exactly what they say, it doesn't matter how much more stuff you think they could have fit in the container"

You may disagree with my point but my analogy illustrates it perfectly.

[ViRaL1]

Has anyone asked how to get those LOTR Ext Ed sets down to one DVD5 yet?

[Gurm]

Viral:

A bunch of people have. You can do it through re-encoding, no problem. They have a VERY high bitrate.

Of course, your results may not look so nice.

- Gurm

[smearbrick1]

Anyone see Starship Troopers in SuperBit? Not very easy to find, I think.

Funny movie though.

[mpack]

I personally think the whole SuperBit idea is a scam, designed to play on the ignorance of consumers.

Any of us here who has authored our own VCD or DVD knows very well that target bit rate is just one parameter you select in the MPEG encoder. It is no harder to put 8mbit/s in the bitrate box than it is to put 4mbit/s. So, while there might well be a legitimate videophile market reason for selling max bitrate video DVDs, that does not mean that you shouldnt charge less for it when it doesnt have extras. IMHO, only a con artist tries to persuade their customers that they are getting something more when in fact they are getting less.

Also, as others have pointed out, a 2 hour movie coded 8mbit/s avg. will occupy about 7.2GB of data, so just because it is SuperBit doesn't mean it doesn't have room for extras.

What this is really all about it these studios shifting back catalog material with minimal production effort on their part. Fair enough, but they should have been honest and called it "BasicDVD", and passed on some of the savings to the consumer.

[ViRaL1]

From what people say, the video quality IS better, and of course DTS is no slouch, so you ARE getting something for your money; they're just taking something a way as well without you getting any credit. As far as choosing your own bitrate when you encode a VCD or a DVD; how often is your source (and path) of a high enough quality where you're actually getting something out of it?

[mpack]

From what people say, the video quality IS better, and of course DTS is no slouch, so you ARE getting something for your money; they're just taking something a way as well without you getting any credit.

Well, my receiver is an older one which only handles Dolby 5.1, but that isn't important... I'm not convinced that the video quality is any better in practice. DVD is a success because the video quality is already very good, as it should be when taken direct from the film master and encoded with data rates typically around 4 times that of VCD. To see much better quality images your TV itself would have to be capable of higher definition, so until HDTVs are common I doubt you would know if you are looking at a SuperBit disk. Also the law of diminishing returns applies: doubling the data rate from that of a typical DVD doesn't necessarily result in double the video quality. In theory yes there should be an improvement. In practice, would you notice it on your TV?

As far as choosing your own bitrate when you encode a VCD or a DVD; how often is your source (and path) of a high enough quality where you're actually getting something out of it?

That wasn't the point. The point is, I expect to pay for products in proportion to the amount of work and money that went into making them. I don't expect to pay extra for a feature that has no impact on the manufacturing cost. On the contrary: the decision to leave out extras saves on production costs, pretty obvious really. I take it for granted that if they are going to leave off the extras, then they may as well use the disk space for something, but as far as content goes I certainly don't expect to be asked to pay more for less.

Of course, they are perfectly entitled to try, just don't expect me to be counted among the marks for this con.

[presto]

I expect to pay for products in proportion to the amount of work and money that went into making them

So a master painter should charge the same as your local hobbyist for a portrait?

I doubt the people who make DVD's say to themselves, hey lets come up with a product that gives us the exact return we're allready getting on our other products. If they can come up with something that some people are willing to pay more for that's a good thing. Good for them and good for those who want the product.

[MOVIEGEEK]

On my TV I can't tell the differance between 6mbps and 8mbps,I would prefer a DTS track over "Superbit" but few releases have DTS.

I have to agree with Gurm...I think it comes down to cost.

[ViRaL1]

That wasn't the point. The point is, I expect to pay for products in proportion to the amount of work and money that went into making them.

I hope you're not a Harry Potter fan. They say Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire is going to be the most expensive movie ever made (and you thought $30 for a DVD was steep). On the other hand, if you like older films, Cleopatra (1963) (factoring in for inflation) would have cost $306,867,120 in today's dollars.

Just because you personally can't take full advantage of all that a Superbit DVD has to offer doesn't necessarily make it a ripoff. It's just another revenue stream for the studios. Many times the extras are already shot and basically put together before the basic single disc edition is produced. They still re-release their "2-Disc Special Edition" with all of it at the same price or higher a while later. Superbit existed because there was a market for it.

[Mortomer]

I don't think there's any question if you've ever looked at a non superbit title and then the superbit version of the same title, it is a huge scam.

There are many examples but take a look at the Gattaca superbit version vs. the standard DVD-10 version (flipper.) They sure did a nice job with the sharp, silver packaging of the superbit edition, but other then that the movie quality is the SAME. This is on a 50' Sony T.V. No difference between the Superbit version and the regular, video actually is the same exact length so the SECOND, authored with the same number of chapters, etc, etc, etc. Can clearly see the Bitrate was increased so it isn't false advertising, it's just a huge scam.

Superbit is a Super waste of money.

[gshelley61]

Has anyone asked how to get those LOTR Ext Ed sets down to one DVD5 yet?

Like Gurm said, it can be done, but the amount of compression it takes to fit LOTR extended movies on to one DVD-5 crushes th PQ. Better to split those on two DVD-5's instead. 100% quality can be maintained that way.

[Gurm]

I don't think there's any question if you've ever looked at a non superbit title and then the superbit version of the same title, it is a huge scam.

There are many examples but take a look at the Gattaca superbit version vs. the standard DVD-10 version (flipper.) They sure did a nice job with the sharp, silver packaging of the superbit edition, but other then that the movie quality is the SAME. This is on a 50' Sony T.V. No difference between the Superbit version and the regular, video actually is the same exact length so the SECOND, authored with the same number of chapters, etc, etc, etc. Can clearly see the Bitrate was increased so it isn't false advertising, it's just a huge scam.

Superbit is a Super waste of money.

You're one of those people that can't see the difference between an original and a transcoded film, aren't you?

[Shocker Milwaukee]

With Superbit releases, I think they should just put the extras/bullshit on the other side of the CD (DVD-18).

[Shocker Milwaukee]

DVD-18 (what I typed - resulted in 'smiley')

[adam]

DVD-18's are much more expensive to manufacture then any other type of DVD, and are generally only used on very long movies. Are there even any SuperBit movies on DVD-18? I don't think so.

[tperricone]

Everyone is missing the simple fact that they enhance the overall picture quality including background artifacts. Take a look at Spider-Man 1. The first release with dd 5.1 track was just under the standard 4.7. The superbit edition with dd 5.1 track was around 6.3gb and the scene with green goblin first attacking at the parade is noticebly clearer in the background. Yes the bitrate is still at the proposed dvd maximum of 9.8mb per second, but until we get to blue ray that is all its going to be. Frankly I would much rather pay extra for the DTS track over DD anyday of the week, but that is another post. The reason for NO special features is because most dvd releases that would warrant a Superbit release have all sorts of crap no one even watches anyways. Superbit dvds are simple and more importantly pure quality sound and video. Those who don't see the difference or understand either don't have hdtv with progressive hooked up or just shouldn't be complaining about superbit dvds. Just keep buying the regular edition and go about your normal lives and leave it to us to strive for a better quality video. Maybe you haven't even upgraded to dvd as of yet and still have beta or vcr players thinking dvd is just a fad and it will pass. There's my 2 cents in case anyone cared.

[Shocker Milwaukee]

adam said:

DVD-18's are much more expensive to manufacture then any other type of DVD

Superbits are generally much more expensive to purchase than any other type of DVD, are they not?

[adam]

adam said:

DVD-18's are much more expensive to manufacture then any other type of DVD

Superbits are generally much more expensive to purchase than any other type of DVD, are they not?

And if they were on DVD-18's they'd be that much more expensive. DVD-18's simply are not widely used due to their impracticalities and the very expensive manufacturing process. Regardless of the price of the DVD, DVD-18's are not a practical choice unless the movie is exceptionally long.

Even at maximum bitrates the movie would have to be quite long to fill a DVD-18 if no extras were included. Bitrate can be maxed out when only using a DVD9 for most movies, and as everyone else has already stated, movie quality is what SuperBit DVDs are concerned with.

I don't like DVD-18's. I like the two disk releases much better. If it ain't a burger patty, then I don't want to have to flip it. Of course DVD-10's with the movie spread on each side are the worst.

[Gurm]

If you want the extras, buy "Superbit Deluxe", which has a second DVD with all the extras on it.

- Gurm