I agree with Presto..just because there is room,...so what? Look at all the DVD-5's out there...you don't think some of them are 3 GB's and UNDER? I can tell you countless that are.
And forget about DVD's...look at CD's...how many cd's do people own where there are a total of less then 40 minutes of tracks. What are you gonna do then...call the artist and tell them you demand another 5 songs or so be put on the CD. LMAO....it doesn't work that way. SuperBit DVD's are no different.
The truth is that in my honest opinion they are just a scam to begin with. But with that being said..Hollywood isn't lying...the bitrate is higher...and if someone has no clue and decided to purchase the super bitrate of a movie, THINKING they have superior quality...then let them be happy.
But too many are making this out to be as though all DVD's whether they be DVD5's or DVD9's completely fill up the max space. That simply isn't true.....and if you are gonna argue that super bit DVD's should utilize all the disk space....then you should argue the same for all DVD's as well as CD's. :P
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Originally Posted by defense
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nope...only when it's MORE EXPENSIVE than the regular versions
I'd have to research, but my guess is the average price of a DVD is about $15 bucks..give or take a few pennies. So if a movie like American Pie for example...it $10 more then that...and the DVD is a DVD-9 like it is...and it doesn't use nearly the max space...which it doesn't....then you gonna argue?
What about extremely popular cd's which aren't your standard $12.99 ...but rather $16.99 ...those are more expensive...but what if the $16.99 CD's have only 40 minutes of tracks....you gonna argue that too?
No problem is you are...that's your perogative....my point though is that this is nothing new. The majority of cd's and DVD's regardless of price, don't even come close to maximizing their total space. 8) -
@defense,
i'm comparing 2 different DVD released versions of the same movie.
i'm not comparing the absolute costs of any one version of any movie...
if the "crappier" version of a movie starts off as $24.99 and a SuperBit comes along and starts charging say $34.99....well....lets make that extra $10 on top of the already hyped up $24.99 for the first version worth it... and leaving 2 GB empty, which could be filled with good extras..or even director's commentary and/or foreign language(s)
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lemme give you a very clear example...since you don't seem to be understanding me very well....
lets say original version is encoded at 4-5 mbit/s...but it comes with director's commentary and several foreign language audio tracks....and maybe some extras....
now, SuperBit comes along and claims that it needs to remove the director's commentary and other "unncessary audio tracks," in addition to the extras so that they can encode the main movie at 8 mbit/s....
fair enough...i wouldn't mind this if they really had to remove all those extras to make room for 8 mbit/s main movie.....but guess what...they still have 2 GB of room left, which they could've included stuff that they claimed were "unncessary" from the original version. they could even add in extras that weren't included on the original.....paying even more than the jacked up price of the original version needs to be made worthwhile.
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Originally Posted by Columbia/TriStar SuperBit -
@poopyhead, your repeating what you already said...I understand. The problems is clear though...you are once again taking your opinions of superbit DVD's and trying to impose them on others. Just because you feel a Superbit DVD of the SAME movie should have certain attributes it lacks...then you think it's an "EMPTY" DVD. You have to understand that is your opinion.
The people who buy SUPERBIT DVD's...and who are AVID super bit DVD purchasers...obviously don't have the same views and complaints as you do. You aren't understanding my point. Superbit DVd's are being sold as just that...SUPERBIT and they are rare so they are considered a "SPECIALTY" item. The prodcution companies say this. If you want the superbit version of a DVD, then you pay for it. If you don't....then buy the original DVD. Either way, Hollywood is pleasing to 2 different types of people.
They aren't imposing ONLY the SUPERBIT version of certain movies...then that would be different. When you purchase a superbit DVD you are getting just that...a SUPERBIT DVD. My points are very valid because although you are making your post specific to "SUPERBIT DVD's" you still argue that BECAUSE THERE IS MORE SPACE, then there SHOULD BE MORE AUDIO TRACKS, EXTRA'S...whatever.
And i'm saying....the same exact arguement can be made for the MAJORITY of the DVD5's and DVD9's out there which leave 2 GB's or more FREE and which in some instances may cost MORE THEN A SUPERBIT DVD.
obviously, they didn't need to free anything up if they still have 2 GB of of empty space on the DVD9.
But the bottom line to all this is to each his own. Just because I wouldn't purchase a SuperBit DVD doesn't mean the next guy shouldn't....especially if he's happy with what he gets.
And for the record...I agree with you...SUPERBIT DVD's are a waste of money...EVEN IF THEY DID HAVE THE EXTRA'S...they'd still be a waste of money to me. It's been proven and I see it with all of my backups....using an amazing encoder such as CCE can reduce the bitrate of a movie by damn near half...and I still can't tell the difference between the backup and the original on a big screen T.V. But that's just my opinion..if others feel like it's worth while...I think they're blowing their money...but that's their decision...and their money...not mine. -
@defense,
you obviously don't understand my point..which is actually valid for anyone who buys SuperBit...again, i quote from SuperBit
By omitting bonus materials, running audio commentaries, other audio (Dolby Digital 2.0) and language (e.g., French or Spanish) soundtracks, extra data capacity is freed up for the higher video bit rate, DTS 5.1 and Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound tracks.
this is the reason given for why SuperBit doesn't have any extra audio tracks and/or special features....because encoding the movies at 8 mbit/s leaves no room left for the extras....
my point is pretty clear....2 GB is plenty of room for extras. -
@poopyhead, it's hard to believe you still don't understand. You keep repeating yourself...what do you think i'm not getting? lol...let me try this one more time man...in a more concise post.
By omitting bonus materials, running audio commentaries, other audio (Dolby Digital 2.0) and language (e.g., French or Spanish) soundtracks, extra data capacity is freed up for the higher video bit rate, DTS 5.1 and Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound tracks.
In order to allow for a particular movie to be classified as superbit, we must DOUBLE THE BITRATE as to assure the HIGHEST POSSIBLE QUALITY. In addition, to ensure the doubling of the bitrate of any given movie will allow the full capacity of the DVD to fit it, we will remove extra's on our superbit DVD's.
You see poopyhead, that quote explains the "specifications" of a SUPERBIT DVD. Sure, in some cases Hollywood could add extra's onto a superbit DVD...but that isn't standard for SUPERBIT DVD's and OBVIOUSLY HOLLYWOOD isn't going to make exceptions. I could damn well guarantee you that in the instances where they could fit extra's on a DVD...IF HOLLYWOOD did this for a particular movie....you'd have the people who love SuperBit DVD's saying....WHY DID X MOVIE HAVE EXTRA's but Y movie didn't. That would really cause people to complain because Hollywood didn't have a standard and each and every time an extra COULD be put on a disk..people would say it SHOULD be put on the disk.
So HOLLYWOOD MAKES THINGS VERY SIMPLE. So simple, even I can understand them. The Superbit versions of a movie WON'T HAVE ALL THOSE EXTRA'S...PERIOD......they simply won't. But in all cases WE WILL PROVIDE "DOUBLE" THE BITRATE, as well as offer the DD AND DTS soundtracks.
Read that over a couple of times and see if it makes any sense. -
I was just thinking who would be the market most likely to buy these "SUPERBIT DVD's" and it just hit me. I bet the people who buy superbit DVD'S REGULARLY are the ones who have a DTS DECODER.
I remember when I heard a DTS DECODER compared to my DD 5.1 ..I said..man..what a gimmick that is...It didn't sound as good as my setup let alone better. I don't think DTS did as well as Hollywood expected either...that's why the majority of hollywood DVD's DON'T have a DTS track on them.
So I bet you these people who purchased these DTS DECODERS thinking they were getting some special form of sound over DD 5.1 are the ones who also make it a point to purchase their DVD's as SUPERBIT. So they can believe they are not only getting superior Video quality...but superior Audio Quality as well.
Hollywood must know this..that's why they barely put a DTS track on a standard commercial DVD...but ALWAYS put it on a Superbit DVD.
They say...if you got a DTS DECODER AND YOU WANT THAT DTS TRACK...then you're gonna PAY FOR IT. I bet those "DTS" folks ares the highest market for these SUPERBIT DVD's. -
Originally Posted by defense
you can say "need" or "assure" or wutever...but basically, it means that in order for SuperBit to fit "doubling of the bitrate movie" onto a DVD9, it "needs" or "assures" that extras must be removed...
well, DOES IT???
how many of SuperBit movies actually needs to remove the extras to "assure" that the "doubling of the bitrate movie" can fit on DVD9???? even panic room, which was 2+ hrs had plenty....maybe not quite 2 GB, but still lots of space left.
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the logic is simple, defense.... SuperBit is saying that extras MUST be removed to assure the higher quality movie can fit on DVD9...there's no "maybe" in there....
extras removed --> can fit higher bitrate SuperBit movies onto DVD...
that's the logic of the statement.... is it always true...mostly true??? how true is that?? what percent of SuperBit movies does that come into play???
how about this:
keep the extras --> can still fit higher bitrate SuperBit movies onto DVD...
how many SuperBit movies would fall into this category...... -
@ poopyhead, this will be my last post on this topic, because you can't seem to get the basics and i'm wasting my time. Let me tell you why you can't understand what i'm saying. It's because you don't have logic. You have to be able to read things outside the box sometimes..and unfortunately you can't. You have the same problem with many of your posts. Such as your Princo posts where you honestly believe that the majority of people who have issues with Princo are burning with some foreign DVD burner or media when the facts are right there. That's an entirely different issue, but the point is that you conclude things which make very little sense. Not saying that's bad...just saying it's true.
I had a similar post with someone like this regarding the forum "AUP"...and when things are ambiguous, such as the forum AUP...you have to be able to deduce the most logical conclusion.
First, you said:the logic is simple, defense.... SuperBit is saying that extras MUST be removed to assure the higher quality movie can fit on DVD9...there's no "maybe" in there....
It doesn't say that Poopyhead....read it again and tell me where you see the word "MUST." Using logic doesn't mean assuming..it means using
logic....savvy...common sense. Your responses don't do any of that.
Now with that being said...I'll explain this one LAST TIME. Look at that quote again....here is what I think can most likely be logically deduced from it. Hollywood is saying that IN SOME CASES if EXTRA'S were NOT removed, DOUBLING THE BITRATE OF A MOVIE AND ADDING A DTS TRACK WOULD NOT ALLOW IT TO FIT ON A DVD-9. IN "SOME" CASES.....you with me so far? Hollywood is also saying that BECAUSE in SOME instances, a superbit MOVIE which would NOT fit on a DVD-9 IF extra's were kept, make the standard for SUPERBIT MOVIES SIMPLE.
That standard says this: WE "HOLLYWOOD" TO comply with the standards set forth for SUPERBIT DVD'S will NOT KEEP those value added extras on SUPERBIT DVD's. The reason for this is simple. By keeping the value added extra's, we COULD NOT GUARANTEE that we could comply with the standard of DOUBLING THE BITRATE AND ADDING A DTS TRACK IN "ALL" CASES. Sure, in some cases, we would have room to add extra's and could do so. However, because the standard has been set forth for SUPERBIT movies in general..that standard will apply to ALL SUPERBIT movies.
Are you starting to understand? It is a STANDARD... you certainly know what a standard is? Hollywood is saying that because in SOME cases they CAN'T KEEP EXTRA's so in ALL cases, they aren't going to. It's a SUPERBIT STANDARD. And the people who regularly purchase superbit DVD's understand this standard. They understand they are PASSING UP VALUE ADDED EXTRAS IN ORDER TO GET THE HIGHEST POSSIBLE QUALITY with BOTH the AUDIO AND VIDEO.
Now just TRY to comprehend this standard.....I honestly suggest you start by looking up the word "standard" and once you do that...the rest should hit you like the Titanic hit the Iceberg. It should hit you "HEAD ON."
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Extra's are never removed from a DVD to free up more space, they are simply never made in the first place. All of those extras must be produced, edited, transfered, and mastered. Additional menu's must be made and all this means more money spent on the DVD production. A penny saved is a penny earned, and there is no reason to produce extra content if its not going to make the DVD sell any better.
The one thing we all agree on is that Superbit DVDs are a marketing gimmick to make the audio/videophile believe, accurately or not, that these DVDs will yield higher quality. Extra's are not the primary concern and they are not going to be a major factor as to whether the DVDs sell or not. Sure it will make a difference to some, but I guarantee you that before Superbit came out a group of people got together and punched the numbers. Obviously the majority of these production studios feel that the added sales gained from adding extras will not offset the added costs of creating those extras.
As far as Superbit DVDs costing more. My guess is that they genuinely do cost more to make even if the quantity of material is less. Also you have to figure that the price is part of the gimmick. When a consumer sees the same DVD selling for $5-10 more than a different version, the first assumption is that the more expensive one must be somehow better.
Its like a Rolex. They are the most expensive damn watches around but they break down more than a $20 Swatch. Rolexes are marketed toward a specific demographic that wants what's supposed to be the best, even if it isn't. -
Originally Posted by defense
the quote explicitly states that extras/audio tracks is removed to free up disk capacity for higher quality video bitrate, yadda, yadda, yadda.
so, if you make the most logical connections, SuperBit removes extras/audio tracks to free up space for the higher bitrate video...there's no "SOME" cases. that implies ALL cases.
your logic absolutely makes no sense... ALWAYS is implied..not sometimes...
when i say "the sky is blue"...do i actually need to explicitly say "the sky is always blue".... of course not...only YOU would think i stated "the sky is SOMETIMES blue."
so, the quote
By omitting bonus materials, running audio commentaries, other audio (Dolby Digital 2.0) and language (e.g., French or Spanish) soundtracks, extra data capacity is freed up for the higher video bit rate, DTS 5.1 and Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound tracks.
obviously, many, many, many SuperBit titles do NOT follow this statement....as extras/audios are not needed to free up space. -
@ adam...what's up? Welcome Back. I hope you had a nice 2 week vacation. First, let me say that yes..I absolutely agree that these SuperBit DVD's are a marketing gimmick. As I said...there is no better sound with DTS then there is with my DD 5.1 AND lowering the bitrate by half doesn't make a spec of "noticeable" difference on a big screen T.V. So it is obviously just mental.
Although you have to keep something in mind which is that people who purchase a superbit DVD "regularaly" obviously know they aren't getting those value added extras. They understand they are losing out on extra's in order to "supposedly" get better video and audio quality. And as I said....look at how many standard commercial DVD's don't have a DTS track. But low and behold, these 'SPECIAL' superbitrate DVD's have it ALL the time. That's absolutely a standard. When you do something the same way each and EVERY SINGLE time, it's a standard.
Hollywood doesn't come flat out and use the word standard...but it's obvious....take every superbit DVD out there....the standard is the same. There will always be that DTS track on the SUPERBIT versions which will certainly APPEAL to those who have a "DTS" decoder and who "THINK" their DTS decoder is better then a DD 5.1 decoder.
Hollywood is appealing to that specialized market. And like ANYTHING else...Hollywood knows people will be willing to pay more for "SPECIALTY" items...and that's why the price is higher for superbit DVD's then it is for standard DVD's.
sorry...defense..but by your logic...where does it say "SOME" cases.
the quote explicitly states that extras/audio tracks is removed to free up disk capacity for higher quality video bitrate, yadda, yadda, yadda.
What adam said regarding cost is obviously an issue too...but even factoring in cost...it doesn't matter because Hollywood could EASILY produce menu's and extra's for the specific SUPERBIT DVD's which could hold them...but they don't...and the reason they don't is because people who are avid SUPERBIT DVD PURCHASERS don't expect them and if they added menu's...they'd be vearing from the standard. I know it's confusing. -
Originally Posted by defense
when i say "the sky is blue"...i make no mentioned wutsover if it's always or sometimes...none... your LOGIC is to think "the sky is SOMETIMES blue"...that's your logic....
when reading "Extras/audio tracks are omited to free up space for ...."
you make the logical assumption is SOMETIMES???
so.... "2 plus 2 adds up to 4"....is that SOMETIMES???
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when the avg. person encounters a generic statement...they don't assume sometimes..unless that's stated in there... -
your last post REALLY proved my point quite nicely POOPHEAD. Thank you.
I am finished posting in this thread....my point was made. :P -
Originally Posted by defense
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1. Some of us buy Superbit for the bumped VIDEO bitrate. Obviously this needs to come from a good source to begin with, and hardly matters for "Charlie's Angels". But "Fifth Element" is nice to have with a huge video stream.
2. DTS _can be_ better than DD5.1 The fact that on the system you listened to it wasn't... is irrelevant. It's a better standard.
- Gurm -
2. DTS _can be_ better than DD5.1 The fact that on the system you listened to it wasn't... is irrelevant. It's a better standard.
You can't always look at numbers and the science and mathematical forumals and say...this should sound better because it looks better on paper. I don't know what sciene and math go into the differences between DD 5.1 and DTS, but to my ears, there is no difference. Both sound excellent. -
Two DIFFERENT tuners, one with DD and one with DTS?
That right there says... that the test is a bit unbalanced.
Listen to DD and DTS on the SAME tuner.
DTS is clearly superior on many tuners - and less so on others. My H/K (which died due to heat) really shone through in DTS, less so in DD.
Plus, DTS:ES is arguably substantially better than DD:EX - certainly better supported.
- Gurm -
DTS is clearly superior on many tuners - and less so on others. My H/K (which died due to heat) really shone through in DTS, less so in DD.
Anyway, I haven't listened to enough different setups to dispute what you're saying...i'll take your word for it. I have one question for you though...if DTS was superior...then why did it just fade away? I mean, I know for sure back in 99' when I got my equipment...and started purchasing alot of DVD's....that DTS was on damn near all of them. But then it just faded away and now it's on barely any. Look at 10 new release commercial DVD's....I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a DTS track on any of the 10.
Another thing i'll say is that my cousin spent considerably more on his setup...He has all Hi-Fi equipment you can't get at a major retailer....and his speakers were over 10 grand. They are "B & W" or something like that....all of them..including the subwoofer...when he plays a movie...his setup can't TOUCH...and I mean...can't TOUCH my setup for 1/10th of the price. I have JBL speakers and a Sony DD 5.1 Tuner.....man...this thing can blow the shingles off the neighbors places if I turn it up HALF WAY.....but it's not just loud...it's CRYSTAL CLEAR...and I do mean CRYSTAL. I almost felt bad playing my setup initially for my cousin...because his facial expression was pretty damn funny after he heard it for the first time. I knew exactly what was going through his head too.....that his setup can't touch mine.
Anyway, as I said...you'd have to really explain how he can have all this HI-FI stuff with these supposedly amazing speakers which are ridiculously priced.....and playing DTS of ANY movie..compared to any movie playing DD 5.1 ON my system...and there is no comparison....when people watch a movie at my place..they aren't watching a movie...they are experiencing a movie. -
The totally interesting thing is this: our eyes can only see so much! Also, the DVD is only as good as it's digital transfer. Even if it is encoded at 9800kb/s. It doesn't improve the quality at all... that's like encoding something at 2500kb/s then reencoding at 9800kb/s and saying it looks better... this is total crap... regardless of what you say... superbit has a higher bitrate, but what was the source? What kind of transfer was made? It all boils down to superbit being a marketing ploy... they tell you the superbit requires more space to handle the DTS and DD 5.1 tracks... hello? I have regular (non-superbit dvds) with DTS and DD 5.1 tracks along with the movie... and extras.
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No no, I agree with you smear!
If the original source was crap, then the superbit will also be crap.
And no, you're not gonna see the difference on a 32" TV, but I would PREFER not to have to buy my movies YET AGAIN in 5 years when I can afford a Plasma screen or one of those new OLED screens that are nearing the commercial development stage.
As for why DTS died out for a while, it's got to do with money. I don't know the whole story, but it's related to the fact that DTS is HARD to work with. It's harder to encode than DD5.1 None of the common tools we use for the PC can handle DTS. It requires more processing power. And less tuners were being made with it (probably the chips were more expensive). All of this adds up to less industry support, but I don't know the whole equation. Anyone that wanted to fill us in would be welcome to chime in now.
And as I said, on SOME tuners it doesn't matter much. They sound about the same. On others, you can hear a clear difference - much better discrete sound location in DTS.
- Gurm -
forgetting all the numbers.....
besides being encoded at a supposedly higher bitrate....these discs also, and once again, supposedly have the films color corrected and the sound analyzed for optimal picture and sound quality, before even being put on the disc.
I can't say for sure about the super bit one....by the criterion discs follow the same theories. And I did get the criterion version of "The Rock" and it is much better, in picture quality and in sound, then the non criterion one. -
My last post on this too. Poopyhead is just being silly. In regards to my shoe analogy the point is that how much extra room is in the container has nothing to do with anything.
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average bitrate of about 5-6mbits/sec is enough quality for me. Especially if extras are included on that same disc.
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This is quite an interesting exchange and it's nice to take in all the information I see in this thread. The fact remains that the only numbers that have any real bearing on what does and doesn't make it into a Superbit DVD have nothing to do with Kbps, or Mbps, 5.1 or 6.1 or anything of the kind. It's all about $ and cents (can't find the char for that one). As far as I know, Superbit DVDs NEVER come out when the theatrical release of a movie comes out. Those who like the movie enough to purchase a Superbit edition more than likely will be the same ones purchasing it on or close to the Tuseday it comes out. You get the movie, you get the extras, you get the basic DD and MAYBE DTS audio streams. Later they come out with the Superbit edition with higher quality audio and video, no extras. WHY??? That's what the original release is for. If you want the extras, buy the original. If you want high-bitrate, buy the Superbit. This is a business and it's the only choice you have, other than piracy. You don't like it? TOUGH! That's exactly what you'll get from the MPAA execs too. Nothing says that it CAN'T be done. For your average movie it IS possible to put high bitrate video and high quality audio, but the simplest (and best value for THEIR money) solution to avoid running into problems with movies that ARE too long, then having issues with why they don't have the same extras, is the method they're already using.
Nothing can stop me now, 'cause I don't care anymore. -
Check out this site to see the diff between reg and superbit DVD's. http://www.videophile.info/ I concurred that DTS is better the DD5.1
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I don't think threads have an expiration date. If you do a search it might lead you to an older thread and you might not even notice the date. You just get interested and want to reply.
I enjoyed re-reading this one. (but decided not to get pulled back into the subject)
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