A little tired of the -R is cheaper rant

[overloaded_ide]

I agree that what a system is sold with has no bearing on anything!

Cd's for instance. Last time I looked I could get a Plain CD drive for $30 and at that time I could also get about a 32x or 48x burner for $50. SO when I build a system to sell what do I install? Burners! Now 52x ones. Why save $20 on cost when it sounds so much better to say you can also burn cd's and the system will sell faster! Better quality system that way as far as it's usability Does more, sells faster.
How many use them though? Of the dorks I know and sold to, about 1 in 3, the rest are lucky to be able to turn on the systems.

Same with hard drives, I never install a $69 40gig, I install the $80-$90
80gig and 100gig. How many ever actually use more than 20gigs of it? Of the dorks again about 1 in 3!

Cpu's, I buy what ever AMD is $100 or close. I don't install a $300 CPU, nor do I cut corners with a 1700xp for $60 when I can get the 2500xp with 333fsb for $90. The 1700xp is great, I have several myself and much more power than the dorks will ever use, but 2500xp 333fsb sounds better and will sell faster. Next systems I build will be the 2500xp's even though they don't need em, and even I don't have one yet, I could use it though!!

Altogether I toss in about $100 (my cost) of extra performance that will never be used. I still beat the prices of the local shops selling low end crap.
So if I ever start installing DVD burners, I might as well install which ever format I can get for the least money, since it really doesn't matter and they won't be using them anyways, but they think they want them

Or I will spend the extra $20 and use dual format if they get that close in price to a single format.

All in all, it makes no real difference in what is being sold, just look at how many people still buy E-machines

[overloaded_ide]

Oh yes, and I do not mean to be insaulting calling them dorks, just meaning they don't know anything about Pcs or need/use any high power stuff!

[tompika]

tompika, did you understand the word "joking"??? Calm down and get a girlfriend.

When I had one my wife and son weren't really happy.

BTW I was joking too!
(but I bet you were not laughing )

[leebo]

Another case of the scarcastic being out-scarcasticed. Or is is out-scarcasticacated?

[tompika]

Another case of the scarcastic being out-scarcasticed.

I'm glad you admit it.

Or is is out-scarcasticacated?.

You must know better then me.
It was not English that my mom spoke to me when I was being brest-fed.

[leebo]

I wasn't aware you knew my mom. Funny, she never mentioned you.

[tompika]

I wasn't aware you knew my mom. Funny, she never mentioned you.

You never know who's behind the name "tompika"

If you haven't graduated yet I could be your father....

[vance43211]

i buy my +r/rw from microcenter

every week they have a different sale on dvd media

i never pay more than $1.20-$1.30 per disc

this week's sale

15_discs_for_$18.99

this is 4x media too

dvd jewel cases here

[Metaluna]

Would you pay the same price for media made by TDK, as media made by CMC or Ricoh?

TDK and Philips DVD+R media is made by CMC, TDK -R media is made by either TDK or Maxell.

So in your analogy, you'd pay $189/100 CMC DVD+R, which is just as good as $189/100 TDK DVD-R

Verbatim can be made by CMC or MCC +/-R. -R Verbatim can also be made by Tayio Yuden and Ritek.

Your comparing brands, not manufactorer.

The reason DVD+R media is getting lower in price is because of CMC. CMC has recently added a couple of plants as did Ricoh. Great just what we all needed, more Cheaply Made Crap.

There seems to be some disagreement on whether the RICOHJPNR01 discs are Ritek or CMC. I've seen a lot of claims that it's Ritek, such as this thread:

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?threadid=72789

All I know is that the 4X Ricoh/CMC/Ritek/whatever +R's that are currently being sold under the TDK, Verbatim, Memorex, etc. brands are known to be excellent performers, with the possible exception that the Pioneer A06 may have some problems burning them. But that's a brand new drive, and also Pioneer's first foray into +R, so who knows if the firmware is up to snuff yet.

I've found the Ricoh discs to routinely have some of the lowest error rates I've seen, as reported in Kprobe (burned on my DRU-500A). I've also tried the TDK 2X -Rs (w/ TDK media code) and they showed much higher parity error rates than the Ricohs in Kprobe on a Liteon 166S, though both types worked fine in all the players I tried.

So if the Ricohs really are crappy CMC discs, they sure haven't been acting like it.

[defense]

@metaluna, some TDK DVD+R disks may be CMC. If Disturbed says they are, i'm sure he's seen them. As far as the Ricoh/Ritek thing. Ricoh is a seperate company, and they actually manufacturer a very high percentage of all DVD (+R/RW) media. The link you gave does have the last person in the post CLAIM that Ritek is using Ricoh's stamper.

I am not sure of the validity on that, and I think that poster may very well be incorrect. Either way, Ritek and Ricoh both make high quality DVD media, but the Ricoh disks have been proven to be consistent with all 4x burners @4x while the Ritek disks have not. I would think IF RITEK is using Ricoh's media id on those TDK disks...then they'd at least be able to sell the same quality/compatibility disks under their own name.

I think the person in that post may of been misinformed.

[CHAOS]

chaos,

really?? please clarify, as i'm a little 'slow' :P i don't see "4x" anywhere.. ?

I must be slower because you lost me i didn't write "4X"
See i told you, i just got it

[CHAOS]

DVD-R media sales for 2002= 90,000,000 units sold

DVD+R media sales for 2002 = 13,000,000 units sold

That should tell ya'll somthing! People who use -R use it more often than +R users. This is surprising since most PCs that were sold with DVD-+RW in 2002 were +R systems. But what no one is telling you is that the people who are buying DVD-RW and installing them, themselfs, are -R buyers. Quite simply, more serious users buy -R. This is NOT to say that there are not any serious +R users. There are many here on this forum.

See here: http://www.afterdawn.com/glossary/terms/dvdplusr.cfm

Could it also have something to with the fact that dvd-r's were first on the scene so there would be more out there and therefore more people buying dvd-r's to burn ?
Just like i have noticed that standalone dvd recorders first seemed to all be "-" but are now becoming availible in "+" format.
I don't know stats but that is waht i have seen in the retail market around my city.

[CHAOS]

cplevel42 does have a point. -R users are typically much more intellegent than +R users. This is simply a fact that has been proven using scientific methods.

This is why the instructions for +R drives come with more pictures!

[CHAOS]

cplevel42 does have a point. -R users are typically much more intellegent than +R users. This is simply a fact that has been proven using scientific methods.

This is why the instructions for +R drives come with more pictures!

Lets see some evidence... My IQ is 140 and I use a + drive, whats yours? I have noticed the - users seem to get more pissed and take these post a little too personally, I wonder why that is?

8)

[CHAOS]

The only reason -r sells more then +r is because it came out first. There are more -r units in homes. It has nothing to do with smart users vs dumb users. They both work well.

Thank You!!!!

[CHAOS]

Who cares, get a life or get back to burning DVD's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Back to dvd burning it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The village idiot]

Leebo, it be fixed!

This thread is funny! Flame ON!

And as far as the intelligence of each type of user you forgot the:
JK

Long live DVD-RAM!

[poopyhead]

+R will never be as cheap as -R because the royalities are higher for +R.

however, i do have to admit that a lot of deals lately involve +R/W drives and media...

--------

BUT, -R is absolutely the lowest price, and will be, regardless of quality. 1X Princos can be had for $0.74/each....no +R media can ever match this...even though they "may" be better quality. Again, "may" is the crucial word...as a lot of the big brands outsource their media production to the same facilities that make cheaper brands.

[TBoneit]

But when comparing -R to +R prices at least try to get near the +R speed

2.4X compares closer to 2X -R I don't want to wait an hour for a burn, I don't even want to wait 30 Minutes... Give me those 15 minute burns and compare 4X -R & +R prices....

YMMV

[leebo]

I just love how the original poster started yet ANOTHER -R/+R war by saying he was tired of them.


PS: Thanks village idiot! I didn't know the correct way to loop it.

[disturbed1]

Would you pay the same price for media made by TDK, as media made by CMC or Ricoh?

TDK and Philips DVD+R media is made by CMC, TDK -R media is made by either TDK or Maxell.

So in your analogy, you'd pay $189/100 CMC DVD+R, which is just as good as $189/100 TDK DVD-R

Verbatim can be made by CMC or MCC +/-R. -R Verbatim can also be made by Tayio Yuden and Ritek.

Your comparing brands, not manufactorer.

The reason DVD+R media is getting lower in price is because of CMC. CMC has recently added a couple of plants as did Ricoh. Great just what we all needed, more Cheaply Made Crap.

There seems to be some disagreement on whether the RICOHJPNR01 discs are Ritek or CMC. I've seen a lot of claims that it's Ritek, such as this thread:

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?threadid=72789

All I know is that the 4X Ricoh/CMC/Ritek/whatever +R's that are currently being sold under the TDK, Verbatim, Memorex, etc. brands are known to be excellent performers, with the possible exception that the Pioneer A06 may have some problems burning them. But that's a brand new drive, and also Pioneer's first foray into +R, so who knows if the firmware is up to snuff yet.

I've found the Ricoh discs to routinely have some of the lowest error rates I've seen, as reported in Kprobe (burned on my DRU-500A). I've also tried the TDK 2X -Rs (w/ TDK media code) and they showed much higher parity error rates than the Ricohs in Kprobe on a Liteon 166S, though both types worked fine in all the players I tried.

So if the Ricohs really are crappy CMC discs, they sure haven't been acting like it.

I've heard that Ricoh was made by Ritek. But not by anyone that would know the facts.

I was only referring to the CMC's as being crappy.

Ricoh does have its own optics plant (for +R lasers), and its own plastics plant (for discs?). But I haven't seen or read any hard core facts suggesting that the discs are manufactored outside of Ricoh plants.

Even if Ritek does make the media, the question still stands,

Would you pay the same amount for a Ritek/Ricoh/CMC manufactured disc as you would a TDK/Maxell manufactered disc?

I know if I had the choice to purchase Ritek for $1.25 or TDK for $1.25, I'd be staring at stacks of TDK media right now.

If you look at the media reports, Ricoh makes a very large % of the discs. High quality? Yes, but are they as high quality as a TDK/Maxell disc?


On the other topics,
DVD-R has a much higher royality compared to DVD+R. DVD-R has a much more complicated quality assurance program too.

DVD+R was first. Philips had their technology on paper first, and a drive in production first. The technology was seriously flawed when it first appeared. The disc size was also smaller (sub 4gig). It falled ISO certification for video, and was advertised as "Data Only" for the beging of its life.

The key factor (for me) in this war is the 3rd party support. When you take a look at the video industry support, it is clearly on the DVD-R/RW side. Toshiba, Panasonic, Hitachi, Pioneer, DENON, Dolby Laboratories Inc., Kenwood Corporation, and ZORAN Corporation. These are companies that make set top DVD players, and internal DVD playback chipsets (Zoran).

DVD+RW has mainly the backing of computer hardware makers. None of the companies listed above support, or are affiliated with DVD+RW.

However, Sony, Meditech (chip maker), Thomson, Sanyo, and Mitsubishi are on both sides. As far as I know, there aren't any DVD+RW only supporters.

This doesn't mean DVD+R isn't a viable solution for data. But for video one only needs to look at the industry support.

[next]

Totally out of focus here. I'll admit it in advance.

Try something that is similiar to a multiple recordable medium that even us stupids can appreciate. DVD-Ram is too easy.

Get a player(s) around your house that can play it. ($90 us). And you're done

[vance43211]

i am not on one side or the other of which format is better (this is a stupid argument)

but how come all day, everyday i read about people on this site buying cheap -r disc that don't work (bad media) and people responde to the question

"don't buy that disc. it's cheap"

how come i don't see this with the +r/rw media

last year in the early summer in the early day of +r/rw

i have had problems with some verbatim +rw discs (the one is the green boxes). verbatim have since fixed the problem

other than that

whatever +r/rw media i buy , it works

how come people can't say the same for -r

i can understand why it is cheaper (in price).

because it is cheaper (in quality)

i would rather pay $1.20 a disc for 15 discs and have a 100% of them burn successfully(in 15 to 25minutes),

than pay .74 cent for some dvds that MIGHT burn me a disc (and take me a hour to burn at that)

[poopyhead]

than pay .74 cent for some dvds that MIGHT burn me a disc (and take me a hour to burn at that)

usually when ppl complain about cheap -R not working, they're the ones that screwed up...

the burn method, burning proggie, dvd player, etc. prolly has more to do with messed up or incompatible burns than the actual media.....

ppl just need to take better care of the media.....

i've actually burned nearly 200 cheapo 1X Princos...and only had 1 coaster, which was completely my fault...NOT the media's.

--------

just because the media is cheaper doesn't necessary mean it's worst quality...there are numerous examples where more expensive items end up not having better quality than cheaper ones....

--------

as for burn speed...yes, i'll concede that one...but for someone like me that goes through a lot of media...nearly 100/month...the difference in price can add up to a lot.

-------

but how come all day, everyday i read about people on this site buying cheap -r disc that don't work (bad media) and people responde to the question

"don't buy that disc. it's cheap"

how come i don't see this with the +r/rw media

cuz there's no cheap +R media

[defense]

poopyhead said:

just because the media is cheaper doesn't necessary mean it's worst quality...there are numerous examples where more expensive items end up not having better quality than cheaper ones....

You are dead on with that statement. No question about it. I will say though, that you are one of the lucky ones with Princo. Princo disks have been known to have the highest of Parity errors and use the most inferior dyes. However, they also seem to regularly change their dyes and you seem to of been in the small percentage of people who have had high success with them.

cuz there's no cheap +R media

I'd have to disagree with you on this one. Often times with sales the highest quality 4x DVD+R disks are cheaper then their 4x DVD-R counterpart. Some sales have already had high quality DVD+R disks as low as $1.20 a piece.

Now, you are correct when you say there is no DVD+R media for as low as the least expensive DVD-R media, such as "PRINCO." However, there is a good reason for this. It isn't so much the quality as you pointed out. One of the biggest differences in price must be attributed to burn speeds.

You have to remember...most of the cheapest DVD-R disks (such as the Princo's you use) are 1x disks. As you said, you are burning 100+ a month so the cost makes a difference and you don't mind waiting the extra 30-40 minutes per disk. That's definitely your personal preference, however some people would think the difference in price is worth it if they can save so much time per disk.

Keep in mind...the slowest DVD-R disk burns at a speed of 1x, while the slowest DVD+R disks burn at a speed of 2.4x. That's almost 1 & 1/2 times faster then it's counterpart. Naturally, this is probably the biggest reason the least expensive DVD-R disks are considerably less expensive then the cheapest DVD+R disks.

If DVD+R disks could be written at a minimal speed of 1x, there is no doubt in my mind you'd have 1x DVD+R disks for about .70 cents a piece as well. 8)

[next]

i am not on one side or the other of which format is better (this is a stupid argument)

but how come all day, everyday i read about people on this site buying cheap -r disc that don't work (bad media) and people responde to the question

"don't buy that disc. it's cheap"

how come i don't see this with the +r/rw media

last year in the early summer in the early day of +r/rw

i have had problems with some verbatim +rw discs (the one is the green boxes). verbatim have since fixed the problem

other than that

whatever +r/rw media i buy , it works

how come people can't say the same for -r

i can understand why it is cheaper (in price).

because it is cheaper (in quality)

i would rather pay $1.20 a disc for 15 discs and have a 100% of them burn successfully(in 15 to 25minutes),

than pay .74 cent for some dvds that MIGHT burn me a disc (and take me a hour to burn at that)

A sincere passonite argument.

But it may not be based on facts as it relates to the many posts here.

I have not experienced what your comments profess.

Anecdotal until somebody throws a study at the crowd that insites more argument.

It's moot. Period.

Unless we're talking aboyt DVD-Ram....

Then we can talk. !

Just kidding but of all the formats this is the format that at least offers a point for discussion.

[next]

poopyhead said:

just because the media is cheaper doesn't necessary mean it's worst quality...there are numerous examples where more expensive items end up not having better quality than cheaper ones....

You are dead on with that statement. No question about it. I will say though, that you are one of the lucky ones with Princo. Princo disks have been known to have the highest of Parity errors and use the most inferior dyes. However, they also seem to regularly change their dyes and you seem to of been in the small percentage of people who have had high success with them.

cuz there's no cheap +R media

I'd have to disagree with you on this one. Often times with sales the highest quality 4x DVD+R disks are cheaper then their 4x DVD-R counterpart. Some sales have already had high quality DVD+R disks as low as $1.20 a piece.

Now, you are correct when you say there is no DVD+R media for as low as the least expensive DVD-R media, such as "PRINCO." However, there is a good reason for this. It isn't so much the quality as you pointed out. One of the biggest differences in price must be attributed to burn speeds.

You have to remember...most of the cheapest DVD-R disks (such as the Princo's you use) are 1x disks. As you said, you are burning 100+ a month so the cost makes a difference and you don't mind waiting the extra 30-40 minutes per disk. That's definitely your personal preference, however some people would think the difference in price is worth it if they can save so much time per disk.

Keep in mind...the slowest DVD-R disk burns at a speed of 1x, while the slowest DVD+R disks burn at a speed of 2.4x. That's almost 1 & 1/2 times faster then it's counterpart. Naturally, this is probably the biggest reason the least expensive DVD-R disks are considerably less expensive then the cheapest DVD+R disks.

If DVD+R disks could be written at a minimal speed of 1x, there is no doubt in my mind you'd have 1x DVD+R disks for about .70 cents a piece as well. 8)

Ok...I agree. But when was the last time you tried to purchase a 1x Dvd-R disc. They are pretty much gone. The price point was too low.

Improve the dye....increase the speed. Get more $'s.

But there was never a r+ at $.068. Period.

I've done the same burns on the $.068 Dvd-r with no problems.
The money I saved more than paid for the drive.

I agree with poopyhead.

It was great while it lasted.

Haven't seen too much less than buck since the early days.

[gavmiester]

This is one of the most useless threads Ive seen yet....nice work!

Always find it amusing that very few people bother to quality the country they are in when mentioning price (although one person did in this instance), but I keep forgetting the US is the centre of the universe. You may be amazed to learn that elsewhere, -r media tends to sell for less, even the name brand crap that millionaires such as some of you, purchase. To quote a certain superhero..."flame on"

[leebo]

This is one of the most useless threads Ive seen yet....nice work! I keep forgetting the US is the centre of the universe.

What you can do then is to tie a string around your finger, that will remind you. Or you can get a tatoo.

Just kidding!


Hey, maybe the US is the +R country in a -R world??

[leebo]

PS: All posters of this thread please be sure that when you quote, you quote the ENTIREpost. Do not quote only the relevent parts!

Only then will we have a chance to beat the record for the longest and most useless thread.