Need a "real" professional advise

[glucic]

Sorry for such long text ... but I need help from and just throwing all I have done so far

I use TMPGenc+ for encoding. Normally I dedicate 55-65 min of movie to a single DVD so I do not mind getting the big file. Also encoding time is also not a big issue in my case. Normally I use CQ 100, 8000/6000 (high/low) with padding enabled, highest motion precision ….. de-interlaced (animation adaptation 2) etc. e.g. trying to get absolutely the very best picture quality.. Normally I get 58-65 Mb/1 min (movie/mpeg). I am very happy with quality I get.

So far, I have made over 60 DVDs (DV tape converted) and I never experienced problems with playing them. In the past I used VBR as encoding mode. However, with recent few DV encoding I get awesome quality, however both of my DVD players (Sampoo 611 & 612N) are stuttering (glitch) while re-playing the movies. Re-playing AVI or mpeg on PC is OK e.g. everything plays as it should be.
I have Sony 490 TV with very first dvd-burner Pioneer 103. Initially I thought stuttering could come as bad firmware – I changed/decreased my firmware from 2.00 down to 1.63 (implementing the versions 1.80 and 1.90) but the problem did not disappear. Thought about media. Then I bought different DVD media (Memorex, Sony, Pioneer, etc.) – still I could not get rid of the issue. I used different DVD authoring tools e.g. Ulead 2.0 DVD authoring , TMPG DVD Author, Pinnacle 8 (DVD authoring) for the given (same) mpeg file and ALWAYS the same shit (sorry). Even if I burn just mpeg-2 to DVD, I do still have the same problem. Trying to burn with a different speed - still same sh..t.

Any idea what causes the stuttering? Is that DVD burner issue or is it TMPGenc issue?? Should I decrease CQ quality down to 75 – 80% …

[SLK001]

What are you defining as "stuttering"? Is it pixelization, or does the video actually freeze? These are usually symptoms of bad media.

However, stuttering in high motion scenes are usually indicative of selecting the incorrect field order. I've also heard that TMPG is not the best at performing an IVTC, which can cause a stutter effect.

[DivXExpert]

Does the converted MPEG-2 file play smooth on your computer? How about the burned DVD in your DVD drive on your computer?

I am thinking that it is probably your DVD Player. If you lable your DVDs, that would be the problem. Don't lable them, then see if it fixes the problem.

You say you de-interlace, (no this has nothing to do with the problems you are having), i would recommend not deinterlacing. MPEG-2 supports interlaced video, I suggest you keep it that way to keep the highest quality. De-interlacing will make it slightly blurrier, and the video look a little jumpy.

[glucic]

Actually it freese it i.e. it looks like that are 20 fps instead of 25 (I use PAL).
Just to mentioned that this is the first DVD I made with TMPG+ that got CQ encoding option enabled.
I tried all kind of media from Princo ..... Pioneer. Always the same result. What confuses me - on PC it is awesome picture.

Thanks for all assistance.
Goran

[SLK001]

Run your video through BitRate Viewer and comment on what your maximum bitrate is (cannot exceed 9.8 Mbps). What are your other elementry streams? What was your original source? How did you get it to 25fps?

There could be a problem with your compilation.

[glucic]

BitRate viewer - did that as well (forgot to mention in the first post). Peak of the Video stream is 8.2 Mb and Audio is 384k/sec (one of the TMPG settings).

GL

[glucic]

The reason I use de-interlace is that I watch the movies on the PC as well and de-interlace is "The" solution for PC.
Also, my feeling is that de-interlaced movie has better quality compared to interlaced when re-played (viewed) by projector.

Regarding the DVD player (Sampoo) - I thought the same - but I played "old" DVDs without any problems.

Is this problem that I posted somehow related to the "gap" in CQ encoding method????

Thx
GL

[KetchSumAir]

I would recommend reading the problem mpeg into Virtual Dub.

You can then see how many frames total are in the new mpeg from TMPG, and it's frame rate, also have it check for bad frames.

Then check the original mpeg - are the number of frames the same? Is the frame rate the same?
Any bad frames here?

Try changing the field order (it sounds like that 'freeze' you're talking about may be due to the wrong field getting read 1st).

Does changing the field order effect the results in any way?

[thayne]

Could be bad media. I have heard nothing good about Princo...

[glucic]

Thx for the feedback. I have not played with Virtual Dub yet. Where do I get it (doom 9). How do I check framewise original mpeg???

I might sound as a expert but in reality I am NOT. I have never change field order in ANY TMPG settings. Furthermore I do not know what shoudl be the "correct" field order.

Guys thanks for the all feedback. It is good to know that out there are folks willing to help
Thanks
GL

[BJ_M]

Thx for the feedback. I have not played with Virtual Dub yet. Where do I get it (doom 9). How do I check framewise original mpeg???

I might sound as a expert but in reality I am NOT. I have never change field order in ANY TMPG settings. Furthermore I do not know what shoudl be the "correct" field order.

Guys thanks for the all feedback. It is good to know that out there are folks willing to help
Thanks
GL

You said your source was DV , therefore field order would be bottom field first ..

de-interlacing DV is ussually a bad idea but since you are viewing on a pc i see where you are comming from ..

[DivXExpert]

Are you encoding as interlaced or non-interlaced? If you encode 29.97fps non-interlace you'll run into trouble. To be standard it has to be 59.94fields per second, if you encode it at progressive, it will only be 29.97 fields per second (it reconises each frame as a field because they are not interlaced). You can encode progressive and add 2:3 pulldown flags if you have a film source (24 or 23.976 fps). But since DV is not film you cannot do this. With DVD standard MPEG-2 29.97fps has to be interlaced. So de-interlacing then interlacing again would result badly. There is not much you can do about viewing it on your computer besides BOB de-interlacing while the video is playing, so it de-interlaces while you watch it, not during encoding.

[DivXExpert]

Remeber, non-HDTV Television sets can only recieve interlaced pictures at 59.94fields per second. Even if you do encode at a progressive 23.976fps with 2:3 pulldown. 2:3 pulldown tells the DVD Player to interlace it so the TV can recieve and display it.

[KetchSumAir]

Thx for the feedback. I have not played with Virtual Dub yet. Where do I get it (doom 9). How do I check framewise original mpeg???

There is a few "flavors" of VirtualDub out there I like VirtualDubMod

You use VirtualDubMod to get stuff like framerates, number of frames, bad frames, etc.

Download VirtualDubMod and play with it - it's fairly self-explanitory. I'm not able to run it right now (at work), so I can't give you precise directions. I'll post them later if needed.

[glucic]

OK.
I am having PAL camcorder and I am encoding all my DV tapes based on the PAL settings. So I do not perform any "format conversatio" i.e. PAL to NTSC. I do believe that soon or later I will get back to Europe and that is the main reason for PAL.
Now - deinterlacing - I have every encoded file (about 70 mpeg-2) stored as a back-up on my DVD-R. I was not in favour of de-interlacing but when I compare interlaced and no-interlaced movie on TV I do not see the difference whereas on PC it is a HUGHE one.
As I mentioned in the first post, I do not care about size of the mpeg-2 - all I do care is quality. According to TMPG help de-interlaced and CQ brings better quality..... maybe I am wrong ...

ANyway thanks for the feedback. Will check Virtual Dub tonight and will keep you posted

Thx
GL

[KetchSumAir]

glucic,

FYI on de-interlacing:

Check out http://www.100fps.com

If you ever want to play/watch the movie on a progressive source like a HDTV or a computer monitor, you are really better off de-interlacing.

If your main source will always be interlaced (like a normal television), interlaced video is generally excepted as the better way to go in terms of quality.

I believe the settings you are using for de-interlacing are ok for animation (I've never worried too much about animation quality as only my kids watch that stuff). However, for normal interlaced video, and adaptation method is probably preferable in terms of quality. Also, if your source is a movie, most of them are telecined, which means you don't loose ANY quality de-interlacing (via IVTC - inverse telecine), plus you get a 20% bit-rate savings, which translates into a better picture quality for the same file size, or a reduction in file size.

[lordsmurf]

Deinterlacing is the worst thing you could ever do to interlaced video, and is most noticeable on cartoons.

[poopyhead]

I have heard nothing good about Princo...

then, i'll be the first :P

good stuff...

---------

@glucic,

since you're source is PAL (interlaced), i seriously suggest you not "de-interlace"...it will cause stuttering..

so, that means you should make your output interlaced...which means field order is absolutely critical.

you can set the field order in tmpgenc's advanced menu.... you may need to do a test to see which field order is correct (test on TV, NOT PC...as monitors are progressive and any field order problem will NOT show up on the monitor)

You said your source was DV , therefore field order would be bottom field first ..

----------------

@lordsmurf,

i guess your only referring to purely interlaced video...i'm not sure :P

but, i've used adaptive de-interlace filters for FILM (progressive) sources that have the occasional interlaced lines during scene changes, etc.... very rare, but does show up if you watch hard enough...de-interlace filters don't affect the quality in those cases, at least in my experience....

however, the first time i tried to "de-interlace" a NTSC (interlaced) source....i never did it again!!!

[lordsmurf]

then, i'll be the first :P good stuff...
---------
@lordsmurf,i guess your only referring to purely interlaced video...i'm not sure :P

I'll be the 2nd. Princos have always been good to me. I can't say the same about others.

Yes, I'm referring to television source, home movies, and VHS. I work almost exclusively with cartoons and television shows and home movies (like weddings).

As far as deinterlacing film, never messed with film sources, like other DVDs.

I will say that I capture movies off DirecTV straight to MPEG1 1856k 48hz (3 movies on one DVD that way), and it looks fine. That is a deinterlaced capture, but again, that only seem to look good on movies (HBO, PPV, etc), and even then, only when directly captured from satellite. It blends the occasional field, but even on high action fight scenes during Blade and Blade II (something I just capped and watched), I saw nothing.

And even I'm not perfect. I had reversed order on TWO DVDs this week. Had to redo them both. I had some captures from a friend, and his are BOTTOM and my ATI does TOP. I wish I'd known sooner. Wasting discs sucks.

[KetchSumAir]

since you're source is PAL (interlaced), i seriously suggest you not "de-interlace"...it will cause stuttering..

If you de-interlace correctly, it doesn't cause stuttering. You're probably confusing de-interlacing with IVTC. Sometimes 24fps displayed on a 30fps (TV, for example - 3:2 pulldown) will show some "stuttering", but you've really got to be watching for this.

Deinterlacing is the worst thing you could ever do to interlaced video, and is most noticeable on cartoons.

I guess this means that watching a interlaced video on a HDTV is the worst thing you could ever do as HDTV's do this real-time.

I don't mean to start a war, but there seems to be quite a bit a bad information developing in this thread. Of course de-interlacing is going to reduce quality when you are displaying the video on a interlaced monitor (like a normal TV) However, as we all should know, watching interlaced video on a computer monitor is completely absurd - and allowing an HDTV to de-interlace real time provides much worse results than doing this while encoding.

There is a place for de-interlacing. There is also a place for leaving interlaced video alone.

Let's be careful not to confuse the newbies with statements that appear to be dogmatic.

[mybook4]

Lets eliminate one very stupid possibility first. You should make a copy of one of your other 60 discs that you know work. If the copy works, then you know that it is not the burner. My dvr-104 recently ate the dust. I had trouble successfully burning great quality discs such as ritek and BeAll. At first I blamed the media, but then I burned a copy of a dvd with the brand I had used before and knew was great. It didn't work either. Needless to say, I got a new burner because it was the problem, not the media. Long story short, your burner might have progressively gotten burned out over time. Burn a copy to be sure.

[poopyhead]

However, as we all should know, watching interlaced video on a computer monitor is completely absurd

yes...watching interlaced video on a progressive monitor will look bad...

however, if you were to apply a de-interlace filter on an interlaced source, the video will be jumpy and stuttery...

so, the only way would be to IVTC...otherwise, to make the output video interlaced and only watch on an interlaced TV, which most ppl do.

[lordsmurf]

I guess this means that watching a interlaced video on a HDTV is the worst thing you could ever do as HDTV's do this real-time...........there seems to be quite a bit a bad information developing in this thread.

Yes, interlaced footage on a progressive monitor (or a computer using software) is blurry. Most of them blend fields, at least all the ones I've seen, including a few HDTV sets. When viewing on a computer, always use software like PowerDVD which deinterlaces for you. I'm not sure precisely which methods are used, but it seems to incorporate a bob/weave method, which is acceptable, though lossy, yet stil not as bad as dropping frames or blending them. Any deinterlacing will be lossy. It was simply made for interlaced monitors (such as tv sets). No matter what you do, viewing interlaced material on a non-interlaced monitor will never look as perfect as viewing on an interlaced monitor. Given that most of the world still uses tv sets, just do interlace. Worry about HDTV if/when it get here.

Once you go interlace, there is no going back. That's as absurd as driving your car backwards to take off some miles. What's done is done.

As far as bad information... I didn't see any.

For those curious about advanced deinterlace theory, visit www.100fps.com.